Stormtalon Gunship

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Quad guns are one of the main reasons why I don't like the idea of running stormravens, 2 HP and AV11 makes it just too easy for the quad gun to take down a stormtalon per turn.

Actually, if you're running more than one Flyer then a Stormtalon is actually a decent Wild Weasel. Armed with a Skyhammer launcher, your putting out 3X 60" S7 shots with a BS5. By maneuvering the Stormtalon to stay out of range of the Quadgun, you can destroy it without it ever getting a return shot. And it's at least 30pts less expensive and more maneuverable than the Ironclad/Droppod option.

 

The problem with this idea is one of range. Quad guns are 48", so you'd have to come onto the board basically as far away from the quad gun as possible -- but you still have to go a minimum of 18". If the quad is deployed centrally, you don't have a lot of space to maneuver through. Plus, once you're on the table, you have to go to Hover Strike mode to maintain your stand-off range, at which point you're no longer a Flyer and can be struck by ground-based weaponry on normal BS. I'd thought of doing something like this too, but there's very little to recommend it -- thus why I developed the drop pod clearance method.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

I'm liking the drop-pod-dread solution. Gonna have to order the ironclad arms from ebay or something...

[tvih]

As far as I see it the Heavy Flamer clearance method isn't a very safe bet. I mean, those most obvious weakness is AP4, which marines will shrug off (unless it's me rolling the saving throws, in which case every save fails). Additionally it's hard to clear the gun from such a wide area that another group can't simply move into base contact with it again on their own turn. Blocking the LoS with the pod would work to an extent, though, although it depends on how close you can get to begin with, as the area could be quite surrounded by other enemy models, not allowing you close enough to block it properly.

 

Still, it's not a bad idea by any means.

[treadiculous]

While this idea sounds good, isn't it better to drop pod behind the quad gun if there is the room.. (and thats a really big if), thus the havy flamer will get behind the 3+ save granted by the artilery piece and if needs the dread can assault the crew. Thus making any unit rushing to take the place of the weapon crew have to fight the dread first.

 

Secondly.. if there isn't the room, why not smash the gun up from infront of the aegis line with the dread.. the flamer may hit some crew but if you are lucky you could angle it so it mainly hits another unit and they won't get the 3+ save. (unless they have it as armour).

 

anyways.. storm talons with TL LAscannons ound popular.. we should have a voting poll....

[PaganLinuxGeek]

Yeah I'm digging the stormtalon w/ tl-lc. It's like a flying predator, but with lower av and fewer hull points ;-)

[tvih]

While this idea sounds good, isn't it better to drop pod behind the quad gun if there is the room.. (and thats a really big if), thus the havy flamer will get behind the 3+ save granted by the artilery piece and if needs the dread can assault the crew. Thus making any unit rushing to take the place of the weapon crew have to fight the dread first.

 

Secondly.. if there isn't the room, why not smash the gun up from infront of the aegis line with the dread.. the flamer may hit some crew but if you are lucky you could angle it so it mainly hits another unit and they won't get the 3+ save. (unless they have it as armour).

The cover is 4+, but it's irrelevant when attacking with a flamer that ignores cover saves anyway. The problem is that you can't assault on the turn you drop pod the dread, and therefore you're likely going to get blown up before you can assault - whether you'd want to assault the crew or the gun. If you could assault without a one-turn delay, then there'd be no problem if you are able to land near the gun and there's room around it to charge, as you could just flame it and then assault it right away, and beat it into a pile of rubble.

 

It's worth mentioning that I think there was a Forgeworld drop pod for dreads that allowed assaulting on the turn you arrive, but as we all know, FW isn't always allowed. Plus it's freaking expensive (money-wise, don't know about points).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

While this idea sounds good, isn't it better to drop pod behind the quad gun if there is the room.. (and thats a really big if), thus the havy flamer will get behind the 3+ save granted by the artilery piece and if needs the dread can assault the crew. Thus making any unit rushing to take the place of the weapon crew have to fight the dread first.

 

Secondly.. if there isn't the room, why not smash the gun up from infront of the aegis line with the dread.. the flamer may hit some crew but if you are lucky you could angle it so it mainly hits another unit and they won't get the 3+ save. (unless they have it as armour).

 

 

You need to change how you're thinking about this. The quad gun has the stat line and rules of an artillery piece, yes, but the unit manning the gun does not become an Artillery unit and thus they will not benefit from an enemy having to get through the T7 W2 3+ of the gun first. So the dual heavy flamers will burn into the unit manning the gun and while they will often times wear power armor, you'll also be putting enough hits on the unit that some saves will be failed.

 

I tried once or twice to kill the gun instead -- in this case, using the HK missiles you can take on the Ironclad -- but it's too difficult to ensure a Turn One kill against a model with a T7 W2 3+ and 4+ cover by default.

[Muctar]

It's worth mentioning that I think there was a Forgeworld drop pod for dreads that allowed assaulting on the turn you arrive, but as we all know, FW isn't always allowed. Plus it's freaking expensive (money-wise, don't know about points).

Lucius Dreadnought Drop Pod is what you're thinking of. They're slightly less than double the price of a regular pod, allow you assault out of it, but has no weapon. Also, each Lucius pod is a fast attack choice on it's own, so it can limit what you can take in your list.

[dswanick]

It's worth mentioning that I think there was a Forgeworld drop pod for dreads that allowed assaulting on the turn you arrive, but as we all know, FW isn't always allowed. Plus it's freaking expensive (money-wise, don't know about points).

Lucius Dreadnought Drop Pod is what you're thinking of. They're slightly less than double the price of a regular pod, allow you assault out of it, but has no weapon. Also, each Lucius pod is a fast attack choice on it's own, so it can limit what you can take in your list.

On the other hand, there's no reason you can't use your normal GW plastic Drop Pod model as a Lucius, so cost is a non-issue.

[Muctar]

 

 

It's worth mentioning that I think there was a Forgeworld drop pod for dreads that allowed assaulting on the turn you arrive, but as we all know, FW isn't always allowed. Plus it's freaking expensive (money-wise, don't know about points).

Lucius Dreadnought Drop Pod is what you're thinking of. They're slightly less than double the price of a regular pod, allow you assault out of it, but has no weapon. Also, each Lucius pod is a fast attack choice on it's own, so it can limit what you can take in your list.

 

On the other hand, there's no reason you can't use your normal GW plastic Drop Pod model as a Lucius, so cost is a non-issue.

I was actually refering to the points cost.

 

Getting back on track, has anyone had much success lately with the skyhammer-armed variant? I played against a few people who had them and they did very little besides kill a few tactical marines. I feel that this justifies my using a ST with the TLLC, both because it fits my style and does more damage reliably, in addition to being cheaper points-wise.

[Azash]

Having recently run a two storm talon list I have to say they are tragically underwhelming yet very much to damned expensive in points for what you get out of them. I ran them with TML's thinking while less effective than the LC at air superioirty since there was two of them if worse came to worse I could focus both on a single target and again worst case scenario glance it to death.

 

However in designing my list here are the issues I found.

 

Quad Guns :(.....yeah you need to eliminate these form the board simply because if your opponent see's you have a storm talon they will centralize the placement of the quad cannon and you have to move on at least 18. Given the twin linking, 2 HP's of the storm talon, and armor 11 your looking at somewhere in mid 80's for a percentile that your storm talon is a ball of flaming debris on the turn it enters (interceptor rule for the win). So with that in mind you have to compensate for it and the cheapest way I found to do that was a 10 man scout squad.

 

The scouts are useful for other things but one thing they can do is negate the toughness 7 of the Quad gun and make it roll a mob of dice. Each time I ran into a quad gun or icarus las cannon behind an aegis defence line or atop a bastion my scouts dutifully wiped it off the board first turn. The downside of this tactic is now your 155 pt storm talon (310 for the pair) actually costs an additional 170pts to field. Which is ok at 2k but when you start dropping below 2k your really gonna feel it as that block eats up an ever large percentage of your total army list.

 

Now to their performance....all the tactics in the world will not save your Storm Talon's from a Fortress of Redemption. It's twin Linked has 96" range interceptor and glances on a roll of 2 or better. Even better scouts can't target the Icarus on the Fortress of Redemption so unless you can blow up the whole annex on turn 1 your pretty much a flaming pile of debris raining down on table.

 

The Point cost of the storm talon is to high so against IG your going up against better armed and armored fliers and it's taken to much away from the rest of your list. So if it doesn't achieve air superiority your hosed. Since it's going up against better armed and armored fliers and they are cheaper (so there could be a quad gun to boot in there) the odds are really stacked against you. Necron fliers are just down right dirt cheap and so plentiful that your never going to have numerical superiority and Storm Talon's are not exactly the Land Raider's of the sky so they really cant plow through a host of Necron fliers. Against the Storm Turkey the storm talon is really just flat out classed. In one game I watched one storm turkey tank both of my Storm Talon's by unloading the Blood Strikes and MM at one and then dropping the other using PotMS and it's Las Cannon. That Storm Turkey had been glanced twice by my storm talons.

 

 

So I got to thinking what do I do to improve my Storm Talon's and noticed I started to think of them as "Suck Talons" I really do think that is the more appropriate name. Here are the options I went through.

• Skyhammer - clearly an idea that originated by someone at GW who failed arithmetic. This is why the Storm Talon at max has 2 weapons so It can move flat out and still fire all it's weapnons. If you do that even playing short edge to short edge the entire board is within 36 or 48 inches of the Storm Talon. So why are you sacrificing punch for useless range? The extra range does not keep you alive with an Icaraus is floating about or other fliers with 48" weaponry. In short they were not a solution but I'm sure the idea sounded good to someone somewhere.
• LC's - Give you more punch but less shots and limit your roll to pure anti armor and anti flier. This seemed like an ok idea honestly but you lose allot of versatility and 155 pts for unit that is very narrowly focused kinda sucks.
• Heavy Bolter - yeah im sure the demonic spirit inhabiting the Helldrake is quaking in fear of your Heavy Bolters as it flies by to roast all your marines. So yeah a big no on this one.
• Replace them all with The Fortress of Redemption....way better than a Storm Talon. You get a 96" range TL icarus so you have as good a punch as the best storm talon load out but better range than even the Skyhammer and it comes with interceptor so you can pop those pesky opponents on the turn they come on the board. However not that great at anti infantry till you upgrade to a krakstorm missile launcher and your dropping a Str 8 Ap3 large blast template on a separate unit every round. Here's the best part it's armor 14 and doesn't have hull points. The fortress is way more points/???? Not really. If you consider two Storm Talons run you 310 pts and the scout squad to keep the first one alive against the quad gun runs you another 170 points that 250 point Fortress is looking damned good. Not to mention it gives the rest of your army some place to take cover if needs be.

 

So if there is a way to make the Storm Talon work I would appreciate the advice cause i like the models I think they are cool I would rather run a flier but as it stands now 2 HP Ar 11 with the limited amount of weaponry is just grossly overpriced at 155 pts. It would be different I think if it was a true glass hammer fragile but a real killer with (ala Dark Eldar style glass hammer) or if it was about survivability and limited weapons options (ala Eldar) but fragile with limited weapons options at that many points just makes it a point sink IMO.

[Giga]

How can 10 scouts reliably kill a quad-gun on first turn? You get 5-6 hits with those snipers, so 2-3 wounds. The gun has 3+ armor and 4+ cover save. If it's night fighting on first turn, it's getting 3+ cover save if you infiltrate your scouts 18" from it, and 2+ if your scouts are 24"+ away. The opponent would have to roll below average to have his quad-gun die on first turn with these odds. 

[Svarte Hanske]

I was just thinking about buying me a storm talon after work today, then I read this topic and now I'm not so sure about it anymore.

 

Pros:

*looks cool! Maybe I'm a minority here, but the storm talon's appearance I really like.

*since I already run a mechanized army, it fits the theme.

*looking at the weapons, the versatility of the krag-frag missiles is nice. Potentially lots of dice being rolled against swarming hordes by launching double frags. Its always fun to instagib a heretic spacemarine with a krak to the face, and this fires two. Number of dice being rolled always wins.

*Moves fast, so should be able to target weak sides on armoured vehicles without much effort.

 

Cons:

*Not exactly the scariest thing to put on the table.

*Costs 155 points... Slightly expensive.

*Would be awesome with AV12, atleast on front, but with 11 it is rather easy to crash.

*Interceptor weapon installments seem to instakill the storm talons.

*Adding more rules and confusion to the game.

 

 

I'll go for a heldrake instead! Join the dark side!

[PaganLinuxGeek]

True, it's not the be-all end-all of vehicles available to space marines. And I agree there are changes I would personally like to see applied. Armour Value per points cost being one of those. However, I've not pulled it out of my 1750+ list because it works well with other vehicles and units. This thread is an example of how tactic changes can improve it's effectiveness.

[WarriorFish]

I'm always reading this topic so when my Stormtalon gets on the table I can make the most of it but it can make for disheartening reading sometimes

At least it looks good and I'm pleased with how the painting turned out...

[PaganLinuxGeek]

I'm always reading this topic so when my Stormtalon gets on the table I can make the most of it but it can make for disheartening reading sometimes

At least it looks good and I'm pleased with how the painting turned out...

Yeah I'm a fan of the look. Need to finish painting my talons. Do you have a pic? (PM me)

[treadiculous]

I have two, I play White Templars, so if I use the Templar dex I can't field them!

 

What I bought them for is to accompany my Storm Eagle / Raven in very large / apocalypse games.

 

I have a pair of Landspeeders and I don't like their looks at all, I'm selling them and considering using the Talons as 'counts as' since I really like the Talons appearance (though I have sightly modified mine).

 

The other factor is that I frequently face Orks and the Talons have a place against AV10 Flyers.

 

I'd like to see a Talon variant with 2 TL heavy bolters + TL assault cannon. I'd pay +20 points to get that kind of anti Ork firepower!

[Giga]

Even if we ignore the clearly underpriced vendettas (those should cost the same as a stormraven), a stormtalon would have to cost like 100 pts with a lascannon to keep it meaning fully priced compared to stormravens, dragons, and even DA fliers. 

 

Anyway, I think it might be a good idea to have an allied flier or two support the storm talon. A stormraven & a stormtalon arriving on same turn would definitely be a force multiplier for both fliers. Food for thought. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've yet to fall into the trap of allies; I'm a C:SM player.  If I wanted to play Blood Angels or Gray Knights or Imperial Guard, I'd have built an army of them long ago.  So for me and those like me, the Storm Talon is all we've got and so we have to make it work.

 

Getting to Azash's post, I have to say that your argument is valid.  An FoR is a better investment point-for-point than a Storm Talon.  It also makes you commit to manning a static position, however, when maneuver warfare is the name of the game.  Of the six standard missions in the book, how many rely on taking objectives to win games?  I'd rather have my troops mounted and mobile -- or at least free to advance on foot, if their transport is gone -- instead of being forced to stand back in my deployment zone so that they can fire some guns.  So for those whose tactical preferences prohibit the use of emplaced weapons, we instead need to clear the skies using dedicated air superiority fighters.  As C:SM player, we have two options: the Storm Talon (which is not as bad as you're saying; I've used it with success, you just have to careful with it), or ally in another codex and take a Vendetta or Storm Raven.

[Azash]

I've yet to fall into the trap of allies; I'm a C:SM player. If I wanted to play Blood Angels or Gray Knights or Imperial Guard, I'd have built an army of them long ago. So for me and those like me, the Storm Talon is all we've got and so we have to make it work.

 

Getting to Azash's post, I have to say that your argument is valid. An FoR is a better investment point-for-point than a Storm Talon. It also makes you commit to manning a static position, however, when maneuver warfare is the name of the game. Of the six standard missions in the book, how many rely on taking objectives to win games? I'd rather have my troops mounted and mobile -- or at least free to advance on foot, if their transport is gone -- instead of being forced to stand back in my deployment zone so that they can fire some guns. So for those whose tactical preferences prohibit the use of emplaced weapons, we instead need to clear the skies using dedicated air superiority fighters. As C:SM player, we have two options: the Storm Talon (which is not as bad as you're saying; I've used it with success, you just have to careful with it), or ally in another codex and take a Vendetta or Storm Raven.

That's easy objective placement. In 6th you place your objectives after you know what side of the table your on and after you have placed terrain (in this case the FoR). So even in an oddly numbered objective game you can claim two simply by placing them in a position where they and the scoring unit are sheltered by the fortress of redemption. So one combat squaded tac squad hiding behind each annex claiming 1 objective each and your good. Remember the weapons on the FoR do not have to be manned to fire them however I would recommend you run a 75 pt 5 man scout squad and have the sergeant fire the icarus with his bs3. Either way the Krakstorm i figure is OB anyway so your not gonna be deducting your BS off the scatter very often anyway.

 

That and any long range heavy support you have in addition to the fortress is an instant back field. Now the entire other half of your army just has to take 1 objective. The tactic becomes even better in a big guns never tire scenario as all your troop choices can move forward to contest leaving your heavies to hold the back line. Or if you run something like vindies the problem is solved. The ability to pancake an entire marine squad in your opponents deployment zone from your deployment zone each turn makes objective games a whole hell of alot easier.

 

As to the scouts reliably taking out quad guns. The averages don't pan out I know but based on every game I have ever pulled this tactic 6 so far it has worked, I am averaging 4 wounds a round with the scouts. However to be fair something that has tilted my odds in my favor is the fact that in 5 of those games we rolled night fighting on round 5. However the ability to kill that quad gun off definitely helps. Even if the presence of the scouts on your list forces your opponent to decentralize the location of the quad gun/icarus it's as your storm talon is SOL without some help (and scouts are cheaper than the alternative DP'ing Ironclads, sternguard etc, that I have heard of).

[dswanick]

That's easy objective placement. In 6th you place your objectives after you know what side of the table your on and after you have placed terrain (in this case the FoR). So even in an oddly numbered objective game you can claim two simply by placing them in a position where they and the scoring unit are sheltered by the fortress of redemption.

Problem:

"No objective can be placed in, or on, impassible terrain, buildings, or fortifications.", BRB, Pg.121

Each section of the FoR is a building.

[Azash]

 

That's easy objective placement. In 6th you place your objectives after you know what side of the table your on and after you have placed terrain (in this case the FoR). So even in an oddly numbered objective game you can claim two simply by placing them in a position where they and the scoring unit are sheltered by the fortress of redemption.

Problem:

"No objective can be placed in, or on, impassible terrain, buildings, or fortifications.", BRB, Pg.121

Each section of the FoR is a building.

 

Not a problem never said place it on or in the FoR. Besides you can't score an objective if your in the building. However you can place the objective behind the FoR (depending on the deployment) and the squad next to the objective completely out of your opponents line of sight. Or you can set the objective beside the FoR (in line of sight) and the scoring unit behind the FoR but within 3" so your still out of line of sight but still scoring the objective. Just a little common sense on objective placement and deployment in your initial set up and your set. It's the single largest piece of terrain GW makes we don't have to get to tricky to hide 5 or 10 scoring marines behind it.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

Has anyone monitoring this thread fielded the fortress of redemption with stormtalons? As my scratch build nears completion I am considering a few trials...

[Uaronain]

 Read this for tips on using my yet to be built talon and leave sold on buying a FoR! I am still building my list and it is very gunlineish (yea i made it a word) I have too much to think about with the dang talon. I like the idea of adding a storm raven (if we get it in the new flyer thingy) and having the talon escort it? I really like the idea of flier support for my list.

 

I have not played in years 4th edition but got the books and have been reading. Would it be worth it to use the raven+talon and have a ironclad ride with the raven?

 

Sorry for all of the questions but I just dont have the experence to answer my own questions yet.

[Azash]

I actually have started testing a lists at various points levels with an FoR in place of a storm talon.

 

A couple of things I have found

• Bordering on impractical at 1500 pts and anything less 250 pts is just to much for that small of a list. However in the 1500 pt game it dominated the entire flow of the game.
• Telion is not worth the points to turn the Icarus into a giant sniper rifle of doom...neat harassment but those 50 pts can be better spent elsewhere. Thought I recomend trying it in a friendly game just for the entertainment value :)
• The ILC generally gets ignored in the infantry heavy meta of 6th the Krakstorm draws all the attention.
• It makes any marines holding objectives  hiding behind the FoR or staging there to make a round 4/5 move to a nearby objective basically impervious to anything but another FoR or some sort of OB guard artillery.
• The icarus is a good AA killer. Good at penetrating good at hitting (especially with BS 3 TL). The one draw back is it's a one shot per turn AA.
• Structures are better than vehicles....not all armor 14 is created equal. Since you can't glance buildings to death and marines of 3+ saves and you don't need anyone inside to shoot the Krakstorm....yeah the survivability of an FoR is allot higher than say a land raider.
• Also since there are no firing ports in the annexes at either end your impervious to frag grenade attacks.
• Deployment is a little tight on Dawn of War
• FoR is as close as your going to get to a guarantee of getting First Blood. In particular using the Krakstorm on armor since its 2d6 pick the highest for armor penetration and you don't need line of site! A neat trick is to illuminate your intended victim with a spot light form a rhino so you can unload on it first turn with Krakstorm and Icarus when your opponent thought he had a nice fat cover save.
• Ordinance Barrage Krakstorm > Aegis defense lines. Simply put since your calculating your cover in relation to the center of the blast marker if your targeting behind the aegis defense line it has the nice added effect of nullifying the aegis cover save.
• Becarefull of things that deep strike with melta's or anything with a rail gun. This is pretty much the only stuff you have to worry about in keeping your FoR up and your really only concerned with keeping the annexes from getting hit the center is pretty much ignored by everyone.

 

That's what I have learned so far.  Can't stress how good a marine killer it is and how its presences and potential force an opponent to alter their tactics.