Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Look, this is a thread for talking about the Storm Talon, not the Fortress of Redemption. I saw that there were no posts and thought to myself, "Great! New insights. Maybe I'll learn something." My point is, and I'm not trying to be rude here, I'd like you to make a new thread for talking about the FoR and the tactics that work best with it. Because for this thread, it's off-topic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3303894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 · Hidden by DarkGuard, February 13, 2013 - Off topic Hidden by DarkGuard, February 13, 2013 - Off topic If you want to take out the Quad Gun (and yeah, it's a really good idea) why not drop 5 sternguard in a pod next to it? 10 Poison shots should do the trick on average. Sniper scout squad could finish it off if required. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3304093
DarkGuard Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Let's keep this to discussion about the Stormtalon. If a non Stormtalon post appears, don't be surprised to see it disappear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3304168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I think the release of the Storm Raven into the C:SM line is actually helpful for the Talon. Have them both enter play at the same time (ADL and comm relay can help here) and use the Raven to block LOS to the Talon from the enemy AA weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3306677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azash Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 The problem is if you read all 8 pages the conclusion is pretty simple. The storm talon is over priced, under armored, and out classed by the other fliers with weaponry. The only useful tactic I have developed with the Storm Talon is overflight on fliers. Any of the fliers with rear armor like the Hell Drake you can over fly and use the 360 degree radius of the Assault cannon to get rear armor shots. You have good odds of getting penning and glancing hits on it at that point. Your still up a creek without a paddle for the 12 12 12 fliers though so it's a situational tactic at best and only works if you opt to go second or your opponent takes first turn. Ok tactic but it still doesn't alleviate the fundamental issue is that it costs way to much for what it brings to your list. No tactics in the world can fix a fundamentally flawed unit (and there are a few of them from C;SM that just never show up in a competitive venue) at the rules level. It's why you don't see a ton of threads on how to fix with tactics the land speeder storm in 6th or how to make use of Vanguard vets (Assault termies out class them) or we spend hours trying to figure out how to tactically make LoD perform as well as shooty termies or sternguard...at a rules level (specifically at a points level) these are just broken and or clearly under performs within the given rules. So inevitably the conversation turns to two venues. 1. What can I replace it with to fill that void 2. What can I pair it with to compensate for broken rules. Only question now is the Storm Raven a big enough boon to make Storm Talon worth fielding. Then again what we are really talking about is Storm Raven tactics though cause the Storm Talon would be there to boost the Storm Raven not the other way around. It would analogus to trying to figure out how many and what type of Land Raider(s) it would take to make a single razor back effective Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3306730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaganLinuxGeek Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I took a combo storm talon and storm raven today in a 1000 pt list. The talon served as a good escort to the raven and provided more targets for the 4 (count them 4) "abandoned" intercepter gun emplacements and (don't delete this post for mentioning the FoR) a Fortress of Redemption. The guns were busy taking shots at the raven and the talon was largely ignored. I think having more aerial targets provides much better chances for talon's survival. We have to remember that this is the first appearance of the stormtalon as a model, and I am HOPING that GW will improve on it. The addition of the stormraven for vanilla marines would seem to indicate that GW is aware of the shortcomings and may be trying to remedy the space marine flyer options. just my $0.02 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3306804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottesoac Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Definitely taking a skyhammer talon now to escort my raven. After the digital update it is only 125pts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3308338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaganLinuxGeek Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 So are the rumors of points costs changes correct? I've read that st dropped by 20 pts. Lascannons and Typhoons up by 10, Skyhammer dropped by 10? I THOUGHT I read somewhere that the stormraven's point costs were lower too? If only gw would release a digital codex for a platform other than Apple, or at least release a PDF of the stormtalon / stormraven specs... The ONE legitimate and non apple documentation of the stormtalon's specs was rendered obsolete by a faq saying basically go buy an out of print book and see. grrrrrrrrrr! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3308400 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Yes, the stormtalon has those point changes. It also has the standard Hover mode and Strafing Run instead of the "Hover Strike" it had before. I suspect this will change my strategies with stormtalons. The SM stormraven looks to be identical, points-wise, except that the locator beacon is 5 points cheaper, and extra armour is 10 points cheaper than the BA version. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3308519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excubitor Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Yes, those changes are right. The equipment options for the Raven have gone down, no changes to the weapons options. And the Stormstrike Missiles are Str8, Ap2 Concussive, one-shot. Book was delivered to my door about 20 minutes ago Edit; looks like I need to update my browser more often Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3308560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaganLinuxGeek Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Yes, those changes are right. The equipment options for the Raven have gone down, no changes to the weapons options. And the Stormstrike Missiles are Str8, Ap2 Concussive, one-shot. Book was delivered to my door about 20 minutes ago Edit; looks like I need to update my browser more often Thank you all for helping those of us without the book out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3308578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excubitor Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 No worries, happy to help. Anything specific needed, just post up and I'll try and answer. But really, nothing much besides the Storm Talon seems to have changed. Anything that did change, the FAQ's seem to have gotten it. Although the extra missions seem like they'll be fun to play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3308591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaganLinuxGeek Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 So a base points cost reduction, and the replacement of hoverstrike with "strafing run". What is strafing run anyways? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3308654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excubitor Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Basically says that when you enter hover mode you get +1 BS when shooting at ground targets I think. It's in the main rulebook anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3308696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Yeah, it's in the rulebook. And it's basically Hover Strike. Strafing Run just needs the movement qualifier on it, which I'm sure it's gotten. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3308711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Does that still include pinning? Thanks a lot for posting this information, it seems to be a bit of a mine field trying to figure out what's going on (or not as the case may be). I don't have access to any of my rules at the moment as I'm at work. I'm very much liking these point changes that have been mentioned. Maybe I'll slap some Skyhammers on my next Stormtalon, 125pts seems like a fair price and will make for a great Stormraven escort as ottesoac said. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3308760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaganLinuxGeek Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Yes, I was hoping the points costs for the talon would be altered. It was overpriced for it's abilities, and armour value. My favorite configuration dropped 10 points, and frankly for the points costs a "default" talon configuration is affordable as a stormraven escort. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3309016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 In addition to the much-needed points drop though is the altering of Hover Strike. This ridiculous rule, preventing us from moving the little bugger if we need to come out of Flyer mode, basically ensured the Talon would die in the next turn. Using it became a tactic of desperation. Now, however, it has the standard Hover mode and Strafing Run instead of Hover Strike. This increases its flexibility so much that it's not even funny, and coming out of Flyer mode is no longer a death sentence since it's possible to get a cover save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3309054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaganLinuxGeek Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Perhaps I'm a bit daft but I don't fully understand. We can now move as a fast skimmer with an improved bs of 5? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3309079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 If I remember correctly, Strafing Run gives +1 BS when shooting at things on the ground (but not skimmers or flyers). I don't recall if there is a restriction on when Strafing Run can be used. Hover is the normal "change from a flyer to a fast skimmer" with all of the associated benefits and drawbacks - e.g. Easier to hit, but Jink save all the time. As far as I can recall, these two rules are independent of each other - making the stormtalon considerably more flexible than it was before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3309141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 In addition to the much-needed points drop though is the altering of Hover Strike. This ridiculous rule, preventing us from moving the little bugger if we need to come out of Flyer mode, basically ensured the Talon would die in the next turn. Using it became a tactic of desperation. Now, however, it has the standard Hover mode and Strafing Run instead of Hover Strike. This increases its flexibility so much that it's not even funny, and coming out of Flyer mode is no longer a death sentence since it's possible to get a cover save. I may have to actually buy this book if your quoting rules improvements like this! Oh GW, what happened to you. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3309303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montuhotep Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Steady On there! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3309362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 This all sounds very encouraging, perhaps finally time for the Stormtalon to shine... Maybe I'll find some time tonight to finish my talon's base. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3309601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 In addition to the much-needed points drop though is the altering of Hover Strike. This ridiculous rule, preventing us from moving the little bugger if we need to come out of Flyer mode, basically ensured the Talon would die in the next turn. Using it became a tactic of desperation. Now, however, it has the standard Hover mode and Strafing Run instead of Hover Strike. This increases its flexibility so much that it's not even funny, and coming out of Flyer mode is no longer a death sentence since it's possible to get a cover save. I may have to actually buy this book if your quoting rules improvements like this! Oh GW, what happened to you. Don't quote me, I was going off of what Brother Casman said was in it. I'm not going to waste my money on what should have been an FAQ. I'm just waiting for the Army Builder update. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3309921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Heh, that's the update applied to the digital codex. I did buy a copy, but it hasn't arrived yet. If these don't match, then we may have a problem :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/252927-stormtalon-gunship/page/8/#findComment-3310015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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