Stormtalon Gunship

[DarkGuard]

 

 

 

In addition to the much-needed points drop though is the altering of Hover Strike.  This ridiculous rule, preventing us from moving the little bugger if we need to come out of Flyer mode, basically ensured the Talon would die in the next turn.  Using it became a tactic of desperation.

 

Now, however, it has the standard Hover mode and Strafing Run instead of Hover Strike.  This increases its flexibility so much that it's not even funny, and coming out of Flyer mode is no longer a death sentence since it's possible to get a cover save.

 

 

I may have to actually buy this book if your quoting rules improvements like this! Oh GW, what happened to you. :P

 

Don't quote me, I was going off of what Brother Casman said was in it.  I'm not going to waste my money on what should have been an FAQ.  I'm just waiting for the Army Builder update.

True, 2 months right?

[Disruptor_fe404]

Perhaps I'm a bit daft but I don't fully understand. We can now move as a fast skimmer with an improved bs of 5?

 

It's move as fast skimmer (hover mode) or stay still and gain Strafing Run (which is the +1 BS blah blah blah).

 

At least, that's how I understand it. GW might have just given it the Strafing Run rule with no qualifiers to use it, but I find that a tad unlikely.

[Brother Casman]

It's move as fast skimmer (hover mode) or stay still and gain Strafing Run (which is the +1 BS blah blah blah).

 

At least, that's how I understand it. GW might have just given it the Strafing Run rule with no qualifiers to use it, but I find that a tad unlikely.

No, unless I'm missing something, the digital codex doesn't say this. The stormtalon is now a vehicle(Flyer, Hover) and has the special rules Escort Craft and Strafing Run. There doesn't appear to be any limits on when you can use Strafing Run.

[Giga]

IMHO, the skyhammer stormtalon, now priced the same as a rifleman dread, is an awesome addition to a stormraven list. They're easily better than a rifleman dread at hunting light vehicles AND better at infantry-killing. 

[infornography]

I think Skyhammer storm talons are an excellent addition to our army now that they are cheaper.  The only concern I have with them is interceptor guns.  Quad guns in particular. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Eh. . . even with the changes, I don't see the Skyhammers being extremely useful.  Lascannons are still much better against all armor, and Typhoons are also better against armor AND infantry.  If they gained Concussive like the new Stormstrike missiles on the Raven then I'd at least say they have their place.

[Montuhotep]

Skyhammers do awesomely well against Dark Eldar - blew 3 transports on 3 successive turns in my last game.

 

 Then his bloody bomber came on......

[Giga]

Eh. . . even with the changes, I don't see the Skyhammers being extremely useful.  Lascannons are still much better against all armor, and Typhoons are also better against armor AND infantry.  If they gained Concussive like the new Stormstrike missiles on the Raven then I'd at least say they have their place.

Their place is their cheapness IMHO. You can spam them for reliable shooting that can harm anything except land raiders + it's anti-flier, so it's always good. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ehh. . . for anti-flier, I think S7 is just too low.  It's why I don't like quad guns or flakk missiles.  The most common fliers are Drakes, Valks, and Ravens -- all AV12, which is hard for S7 to punch through.  It's why I'm such a strong advocate of lascannons on a Talon; the S9 and AP2 make it simply the best weapon for the Talon to carry with which to shoot down other fliers.  Either you need the high strength to pen their armor, or for the lighter birds like the Dakkajet and Scythes, the S9 just weighs the dice rolls in your favor.

[Giga]

I agree. Lascannon is certainly better when it comes to pure anti-flier. But I think it's kinda wasted otherwise, as there are better ways to get lascannons into a list (combipreds, las/plas razorbacks, land raider, allied vendettas etc.). 

 

The way I see myself using skyhammer stormtalons, is in an army with a quad gun and a stormraven. Basically, the skyhammer & the quad-gun are lots of cheap reliable dakka (together, the they come out at 225 pts, plus you get a defense line, super cheap), while the stormraven is the heavy hitter/transport.

 

This combination basically gives me a good chance to murder or seriously harm two AV12 fliers per turn. Between the quad-gun & the skyhammer I'm getting an awful lot of reliable shots out, very likely resulting in multiple glances and penetrations (keep in mind that fliers are more vulnerable than other vehicles, stunned and immobilized results are much more devastating to them), while the stormraven itself is more than capable of solo-ing another one and attacking multiple targets with potms. 

 

Also, don't underestimate the quad-gun. It's got interceptor and at BS4 is very likely to get 4 hits on an arriving flier. With a 33% chance to glance/pen, most opponents will panic and perform evasive maneuvers, drastically weakening their alpha strike. 

[Azash]

I honestly see myself stripping down the Storm Talon to its most minimal points cost build now that the Storm Raven is available. So for 110 pts (i believe that is the new cost) your getting 7 twin linked dice a round. That is pretty good especially good against the infantry heavy meta of 6th.

You can still function for anti flier support using the assault cannon and the overflight tactic. However with the Storm Raven present to fill the anti flier roll it leaves the Storm Talon free to make a decent gun ship which also allows you to specialize the weapons selection on the Storm Raven to more anti flier (aka LC's and mm vs AC's and TML's). The presence of the Storm Raven and it's increased survivability should draw your opponents shooting away from the Storm Talon leaving it free to attack ground targets.

I think it might be worth fitting the Storm Raven with a Hurricane Bolter though. Opponents that are mainly ground based and relying on ground based AA would see the weaker Storm Talon as a more viable first turn target than the Storm Raven. The Hurricane Bolter would pull the fire back to the Storm Raven where you want it.

Fixed the Storm Talon and Storm Raven confusion typos

[infornography]

Here is the mathhammer on the two guns.

skyhammer missiles @BS4
1.98 hits
glance +
vs av10 1.31
vs av11 .99
vs av12 .65
pen
vs av10 .99
vs av11 .65
vs av12 .33
destroy target
vs av10 .17
vs av11 .11
vs av12 .05

TL lascannon @BS4
.89 hits
glance +
vs av10 .89
vs av11 .74
vs av12 .59
pen
vs av10 .74
vs av11 .59
vs av12 .45
destroy target
vs av10 .24
vs av11 .19
vs av12 .15

The skyhammer removes more hullpoints from all common flyer AVs than the las cannon. And your odds of that lascannon dropping the enemy flyer are not great. If the two guns were roughly equally costed like they used to be, the lascannon would be the obvious choice, but with the much larger difference in cost between the upgrades, I think the Skyhammer is more attractive for my points.

And just for reference, here is the gun they will be paired with

TL Assault Cannon @BS4
3.54 hits
glance +
vs av10 1.77
vs av11 1.17
vs av12 .59
pen
vs av10 1.17
vs av11 .59
vs av12 .59
destroy target
vs av10 .20
vs av11 .10
vs av12 .10

Targeting hull points is more compatible with the assault cannon than going for the long shot kill.
Also if there are no flyers to target, it makes the Talon much better at annihilating infantry when it goes after ground targets. The las cannon will often not mesh well with the target priority of the assault cannon against ground targets, but with the BS upgrade against ground, it gets really quite effective at mowing down tough infantry.

[tvih]

I honestly see myself stripping down the Storm Raven to its most minimal points cost build now that the Storm Raven is available. So for 110 pts (i believe that is the new cost) your getting 7 twin linked dice a round. That is pretty good especially good against the infantry heavy meta of 6th.

 

You can still function for anti flier support using the assault cannon and the overflight tactic. However with the Storm Raven present to fill the anti flier roll it leaves the Storm Talon free to make a decent gun ship which also allows you to specialize the weapons selection on the Storm Raven to more anti flier (aka LC's and mm vs AC's and TML's). The presence of the Storm Raven and it's increased survivability should draw your opponents shooting away from the Storm Talon leaving it free to attack ground targets.

 

I think it might be worth fitting the Storm Raven with a Hurricane Bolter though. Opponents that are mainly ground based and relying on ground based AA would see the weaker Storm Talon as a more viable first turn target than the Storm Raven. The Hurricane Bolter would pull the fire back to the Storm Raven where you want it.

 

Ugh, stop confusing Raven and Talon :P

 

I don' think there's any reason to use Stormtalon with the Heavy Bolter now that it can use Skyhammers for such a low price, at least if you want to do anti-flyer duty. While good, a Stormraven can't be everywhere killing all enemy flyers at once. And not everyone will be running multiples. But on that note the kit-outs of course depend on the list as a whole.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

I would have to agree that the points cost reduction removes the need to strip down the stormtalon. For a mere 15 pts skyhammer provides better firepower. Personally I still prefer the lascannon option as it provides more penetration power. I know that it doesnt provide the same amount of shots as skyhammer.

[Uaronain]

I would have to agree that the points cost reduction removes the need to strip down the stormtalon. For a mere 15 pts skyhammer provides better firepower. Personally I still prefer the lascannon option as it provides more penetration power. I know that it doesnt provide the same amount of shots as skyhammer.

 

 I ended up using IG as allies and chose to have the Skyhammer Talon + Vendetta because I have a place in my heart for lascannons. They both can fight other air units and attack ground targets. They just have different target priorities.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Here is the mathhammer on the two guns.

 

Snip!

 

Math doesn't win games, and math hammered dice odds will only play true on an exceptionally large selection of games.  Having played the Storm Talon with both lascannons and skyhammers, I can admit that the high rate of fire for the skyhammers gives good service against light armor and infantry, but look at the AV12 fliers and how dangerous they are.  They are the kind of threats that need to die immediately or they can wreak unimaginable harm on your army.  Killing a unit via hull points takes time; a single penetrating hit with an AP bonus has an excellent chance of either pulling a unit's teeth or killing it flat out in a single hit. 

[dswanick]

 

 

Here is the mathhammer on the two guns.

 

Snip!

 

Math doesn't win games, and math hammered dice odds will only play true on an exceptionally large selection of games.  Having played the Storm Talon with both lascannons and skyhammers, I can admit that the high rate of fire for the skyhammers gives good service against light armor and infantry, but look at the AV12 fliers and how dangerous they are.  They are the kind of threats that need to die immediately or they can wreak unimaginable harm on your army.  Killing a unit via hull points takes time; a single penetrating hit with an AP bonus has an excellent chance of either pulling a unit's teeth or killing it flat out in a single hit.

 

 

I find your definition of "excellent chance" odd. I wouldn't define a 45% chance of penetrating and a 15% chance of Destroying something as "excellent". That's a 55% of not Penetrating and an 85% of not Destroying something. Now that's "excellent odds".

[infornography]

 

Here is the mathhammer on the two guns.

 

Snip!

 

Math doesn't win games, and math hammered dice odds will only play true on an exceptionally large selection of games.  Having played the Storm Talon with both lascannons and skyhammers, I can admit that the high rate of fire for the skyhammers gives good service against light armor and infantry, but look at the AV12 fliers and how dangerous they are.  They are the kind of threats that need to die immediately or they can wreak unimaginable harm on your army.  Killing a unit via hull points takes time; a single penetrating hit with an AP bonus has an excellent chance of either pulling a unit's teeth or killing it flat out in a single hit. 

Discount the benefit of understanding statistics if you wish.  I find I tend to win against those who do.

 

The chances of taking out the storm raven outright are not good.  The chances of disabling it in some way aren't even very good especially if you are talking about a GK storm raven with Fortitude. 

 

Mathammer alone doesn't tell you the whole story, but there isn't much more to this story to tell beyond it.  Flyers have sufficient manuverability to negate the importance of range. 

 

If the Storm Talon had a multimelta or even a Typhoon missile launcher instead of an assault cannon, I would absolutely take the las cannon over the skyhammer for the cumulative odds of destroying the target in one round.  But it has an assault cannon, which pairs better with the skyhammer in every way.  If you are stuck with a gun that is optimized for hull point removal, pair it with another hull point removal weapon.  If you are stuck with a gun that is optimized for damage rolls, pair it with a gun optimized for damage rolls.  If you mix and match you are basically guaranteeing mediocre performance.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Here's why I despise math hammering odds.  In my last game, my Master of the Forge had to roll 27 armor saves in one shooting phase.  I made 26 of them.  In the next shooting phase, my five-man squad of Tactical Terminators had to roll ten armor saves, and I failed six of them.  You can't count mathhammering in a vaccuum, just like you can't look at single units in a vaccuum.  There are just too many variables and too many dice rolls made in a game for this kind of tunnel-vision to work out.  If my dice had rolled as your math dictates, then my MOTF would have died and I'd have only lost one, maybe two Terminators.

 

Think of me like Han Solo: never tell me the odds.

[infornography]

I do not propose assuming that you will always get the statistically likely result.  The purpose of mathhammering the statistics is to get a truly unbiased view of the precise capabilities of each weapon system.  With more precise information at your disposal you can make better judgement calls on the statistical likelihood of success with a given weapon.  It doesn't mean I am ignoring the random nature of the game, but it does mean I am stacking the deck in my favor so to speak.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Allow me to reiterate and expand upon a previous statement.  I have played a Storm Talon with lascannons, and I have played one with skyhammers.  In both cases, I used them specifically as an interceptor.  In the cases where there were no flyers in the enemy force, the skyhammers gave a decent account of themselves against Rhinos and infantry where the lascannon variant relied on the assault cannons for effective employment against infantry.  However, in their primary-assigned role of shooting down aircraft, the HammerTalon had zero air-to-air kills against my LasTalon's seven air-to-air kills (that's one Dakkajet, two Ravens, two Vendettas, and two Scythes).

 

In my anecdotal experience, lascannons make the Talon a better interceptor whereas skyhammers make it a better ground-attack fighter.

 

 

And since neither of us are going to budge, can we move on?

[PaganLinuxGeek]

I've been considering deploying a stormtalon as escort to a stormraven. Since the talon would be acting as an inceptor, I was thinking lascannons would be best option. Just curious if anyone had any results to share.

[Muctar]

I've escorted a Storm Eagle (not Stormraven) with a LC Talon with fantastic success. Since the Eagle is very similar to the Raven I believe my experience would be similar if I had used a Raven. The Eagle drew almost all of the anti-flier fire with very little damage done to it, which left the Talon to blast away at Flyrants and juicy ground targets. If I had faced other flyers I feel confident the Talon would have performed admirably in its anti-flyer role. The extra strength and AP bonus to damage was great for targeting vehicles.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

Yeah it seems like a win-win. If the raven takes the brunt of the AA fire then the talon can focus on target removal. If the talon takes the brunt of AA fire then the raven is free to drop it's embarked units.

[Disruptor_fe404]

So they really do have Strafing Run straight up now? No having to sit in place to use it?

 

I like.