Question about Sgt. Telion.

[VIIILegionaire.]

I was wondering about Sgt. Telions wound allocation special rule. Say, if you wounded with both shots, could you put them both on the same model? If this already has been covered, my bad.

[DarkGuard]

It's an odd one, and depends on where it's place in the wound allocation comes. I'd say yes, as long as the rest of his unit causes enough shots to give each member of the target unit one wound each. But I can't be sure, and more often than not the answer will be no.

[greatcrusade08]

the mechanics for Telions wound allocation have always caused some controvesy.

 

some people will claim that although Telions owner gets to allocate his wounds, its not stated he does so 'first'.. which is true enough.

however the only common sense way to apply his rule IS to apply his wounds first, that way the enemy cannot hamstring you by putting silly wounds on important models and leaving you no choice but to allocaste to walking bodybags due to the wound allocation mechanics.

 

this is the way ive always played it and all of my opponents seem to agree with me (or im just an overbearing idjit and they dont want to argue)

 

if you do play it this waythen generally id say no to putting two wounds on the same model, there may be enough wounds to force overlap but i still feel its fairer to not do it becuase you are placing his wounds before the others

 

my 0.02 (its a'house rule' at best)

[VIIILegionaire.]

Hmm. I figured you couldn't put both on the same model, but wasn't sure. I really was hoping I was wrong so I could occasionally straight out kill those pesky Power Klaw nobz my friend throws at me.

[Grey Mage]

I dont see why you couldnt, as long as the overall allocation is legal.

[Legatus]

You can, but not if your scout unit caused less wounds than there are enemy models in the target unit, since wounds have to be distributed evenly. The player of Telion gets to decide where in the target squad the Stalker Bolter wounds go, instead of the player being shot at, which means the Stalker Wounds have to be allocated according to the basic rules for wound allocation.

 

I.e. Wounds = 1 to N (N = number of enemy models) --> The Stalker Bolter wounds have to go on different models

 

Wounds = N+1 or more --> The Stalker Bolter wounds can be put on the same model

[Toasterfree]

stalker wounds would not follow normal allocation since tellion can decide where they go. in this instance normal allocation rules do not apply to tellion. if he dealth 2309487209875023894750983475 wounds, he could put that many on one model

[Toasterfree]

DOH! repeat!

[greatcrusade08]

stalker wounds would not follow normal allocation since tellion can decide where they go. in this instance normal allocation rules do not apply to tellion. if he dealth 2309487209875023894750983475 wounds, he could put that many on one model

 

care to point out the rules for this?

wound allocation rules are documented well, who chooses where the wounds go is only one small part. the rule whch allows telions controller to place the wounds do not override the other parts of the wound allocation rules.

[dswanick]

stalker wounds would not follow normal allocation since tellion can decide where they go. in this instance normal allocation rules do not apply to tellion. if he dealth 2309487209875023894750983475 wounds, he could put that many on one model

 

care to point out the rules for this?

wound allocation rules are documented well, who chooses where the wounds go is only one small part. the rule whch allows telions controller to place the wounds do not override the other parts of the wound allocation rules.

Well, they do not explicitly overrule the allocation rules. I believe there is a whole locked thread arguing over the implicit permission to allocate the wounds were you want, even if it doesn't result in a normally valid allocation.

[Legatus]

I don't have my Codex with me, but IIRC Telion's rules are phrased saying that instead of the player being shot at, the player of Telion can allocate those wounds. I.e. he can make the decision that would ordinarily be the one of the opposing player. Thus he has to adhere to wound allocation rules, since ordinarly the opposing player would have to as well.

[dswanick]

I don't have my Codex with me, but IIRC Telion's rules are phrased saying that instead of the player being shot at, the player of Telion can allocate those wounds. I.e. he can make the decision that would ordinarily be the one of the opposing player. Thus he has to adhere to wound allocation rules, since ordinarly the opposing player would have to as well.

"Eye of Vengeance: Wounds caused by Telion's Shooting attacks are allocated by his controlling player, rather than the opposing player.", C:SM, Pg.88

[greatcrusade08]

"Eye of Vengeance: Wounds caused by Telion's Shooting attacks are allocated by his controlling player, rather than the opposing player.", C:SM, Pg.88

 

 

exactly, theres no 'permission' to break the other rules onwound allocation

[Legatus]

Yep, so the player of Telion controlls the wound allocation process.

[dswanick]

"Eye of Vengeance: Wounds caused by Telion's Shooting attacks are allocated by his controlling player, rather than the opposing player.", C:SM, Pg.88

 

 

exactly, theres no 'permission' to break the other rules onwound allocation

Sigh, that's exactly the point I was making with my statement about explicit vs implicit permission. If, for example, a unit of five models takes five wounds (includng one Rending wound from Telon) and the owning player assigns the four regular wounds to the special weapon and three bolter guys leaving only one bolter guy to take the Rending wound then he's negated the rule allowing Telon's player to assign the Rending wound where he wants it (on the special weapon guy).

Yep, so the player of Telion controls the wound allocation process.

But, by RAW, only for Telon's wounds.

[Legatus]

I think GC08 and I both were talking about the issue whether the player of Telion could allocate both wounds on a single model, and he could not do so if the enemy unit suffered fewer hits than models (or that same amount) because that would not be allowed according to the normal wound allocation rules.

 

Whether Telion's player can say that the Stalker wound goes on a sparticular model, or whether the opposing player can choose to put a normal bolter wound on that very model instead, preventing Telion's player from allocating his wound to that model, is a separate question. I would say that if the opposing player did that, then in the end it was not really Telion's player who decided where the wounds caused by Telion were being allocated. So the Telion player's choice where to put those wounds takes precedence.

[greatcrusade08]

I think GC08 and I both were talking about the issue whether the player of Telion could allocate both wounds on a single model, and he could not do so if the enemy unit suffered fewer hits than models (or that same amount) because that would not be allowed according to the normal wound allocation rules.

 

Whether Telion's player can say that the Stalker wound goes on a sparticular model, or whether the opposing player can choose to put a normal bolter wound on that very model instead, preventing Telion's player from allocating his wound to that model, is a separate question. I would say that if the opposing player did that, then in the end it was not really Telion's player who decided where the wounds caused by Telion were being allocated. So the Telion player's choice where to put those wounds takes precedence.

 

exactly, i made this point earlier in the thread.

 

whats clear from Telions special rule is that wound allocation must happen as normal with the exception that Telions owner gets to choose where telions wounds are placed.

the argument of which player allocates first is easily solved using Legs' logic above.

if your opponent places normal wounds first it often leave Telions wounds unable to be allocated where the owning player wanted.. which seems to negate the purpose of the EOV rule

[Toasterfree]

but we are not talking about the entire squads wounds, just tellions.

 

tellion does 4 wounds (whether or not this is possible is moot). the squad does 4. unit of 8 dudes. the 4 SQUAD wounds would have to be allocated as normal, but TELIONS wounds are allocated by the controller of tellion, what is preventing him from putting all 4 on one dude?

 

for that matter even with the 1 wound from tellion example and 4 from the squad on a 5 man unit, sure the opposing puts a wound on the special weapon...nothing says that telion has to put his wound on something else, telion just puts his wound on the special weapon.

 

EOV says it all there. doesnt matter who allocates the squads wounds. telion just wounds that one dude. period.

 

engrish issue?

[Grey Mage]

Whats preventing him from putting them all on one guy is the same thing preventing your opponent from putting their 4 on that same guy- because the wound allocation rules do not allow it.

[Toasterfree]

EOV allows tellion to allocate the wounds where he wants to. its the same thing as the vindi assassin. i see no issue here.

 

over thinking much you are

[Legatus]

EOV allows tellion to allocate the wounds where he wants to.

No, it doesn't. The rule has already been quoted in this thread:

"Eye of Vengeance: Wounds caused by Telion's Shooting attacks are allocated by his controlling player, rather than the opposing player."

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 88)

I.e. the player of Telion is given the choice that would otherwise have been the opponent's. I.e. it is the same procedure, just with the Space Marine player deciding where to put the wounds, instead of the opposing player.

[Ah-a-nothepsis]

Letting the guy put that first critical wound on a Thousand Sons Aspiring Sorcerer and the second on Ahriman isn't enough?

 

There's a section on "allocating wounds", and Telion needs to follow those rules.

 

Oh, and..

 

For great justice.

[greatcrusade08]

page 25 of the BRB discussess complex units and wound allocation.

EoV only allows Telions owner to allocate the wounds, not break all the parts of the wound allocation rule

[Kierdale]

So, let me check this:

A. If Telion deals one wound: Telion's player allocates Telion's dealt wound first, then the opponent allocates the remaining wounds among the other members of the unit.

 

...and...

 

B. if Telion deals two wounds and he and his unit deal [enemy unit's size]+1 or greater wounds, then Telion's player can allocate those two wounds to the same mini, then the opponent allocates the other wounds across the unit.

 

...and...

 

C. Telion deals two wounds but he and his unit deal a number of wounds equal or less than [enemy unit's size] then Telion's player allocates Telion's two wounds to different minis, then the opponent allocates the remaining wounds across the unit.

 

Right?

[Morollan]

EOV allows tellion to allocate the wounds where he wants to. its the same thing as the vindi assassin. i see no issue here.

 

over thinking much you are

 

Not over thinking. Just thinking. You see, most of us here in the OR actually like to pay at least lip service to the rules (the clue is in the name of the forum). Simply stating something, with no rules to back it up, will not really persuade many people to your point of view.

 

Telion's special rule allows his player to alter one stage of the wound allocation process. There is no indication that any of the other stages are ignored.