Returning to Ravenwing

[Master Toddius]

Hail Brethren. Its nice to be back and posting again. Had a 8 month run as a GW employee and was too afraid to post anything without getting slammed by Management. Probably one of the worst job experiences of my life. I was complimented all up and down by Mark Wells only to be screwed out of my job by some really underhanded work mates. Tzeentch would be proud of them.

But now i'm back to my favorite forum and my favorite chapter and have decided to reboot my beloved Ravenwing. I stripped the paint from my original Strike Force Corvus and then added 5 more full squadrons for a total of 8. And then I tore apart my Master on Speeder and rebuilt him as this WIP:

Yesterday I had a game with a good friend whom also plays DA's and we both examined the point value vs effectiveness of the typhoon vs the tornado. The typhoon is 25pts less than it space marine equivalent. The tornado is 100pts.

1. The tornado can be taken as a non-scoring troop when attached in point costs to a full RW squadron [as per the DA Codex page 85]. It is a speeder that is armed both with a AC and HB. I have to ask myself is this unit overpriced? I would've agreed prior to the last FAQ that the point cost was justified seeing as that the speeder could score. But is an AC truly worth an extra 40pts now that the unit is no longer scoring? The speeder enters play as a normal reserve move even if the squadron decides to out flank. It can't deep strike like its marine counter part, and truly has no other special rules other than its availability in unusually large amounts compared to other MEQ's.

2. The Typhoon is only 75pts [as per the Dark Angel Codex page 85] but it as 2 missile launchers AND a MM or HB. I can see a typhoon at the cost of 100pts because of its range and great anti-armor / anti-troop capabilities. I think we can agree with this. The ability to skirt around the battle field periphery and unload 2 krak missiles then move within 36" for the kill with an HB and frag rounds is very effective. Or getting close with the 2 kraks + MM can be really great against armor.

In my mind the point costs are reversed, correct? At best the typhoon should be 100pts and the tornados should be 75pts. RW speeders should have a base cost of 50pts and then the correct add on costs with the new FAQ result. Possibly 40pt increase for typhoon launchers and a 10pt increase of a MM. And then redesign the tornado to be a base of 50 + 35(?) for the assault cannon so it would total out at 85pts. Unless the next codex redo has the tornado as scoring, the ability to outflank, jink save(?), or some other special rule - the point cost needs to drop to be fair, IMHO. I would like to run more speeders and attack bikes in my RW army. The current design of the Squadrons is a hot mess and has been for 5 years now.

What say you?

[Spaced Hulk]

Hi Todd, very long time no see! ;) Sorry to hear you had a bad time working for GW. If you don't mind me asking, what job did you have with them?

 

The WIP Master of the Ravenwing is awesome! From the front, it looks really sleek and predatory, almost shark-like in fact. From the back, it reminds me a bit of a Star Destroyer from Star Wars. Only thing I'm not 100% sure about is the twin linked heavy bolter. It seems quite bulky (unlike the rest of the model) and I wonder if it would look better split up, perhaps a single heavy bolter on each wing mount? The assault cannons are absolutely ace though.

 

As for speeder costs, yes I agree. The Typhoon is currently undercosted for both DA and Black Templars, while the Assault Cannon Tornado is over costed in every codex. It was probably an over reaction by GW to how effective assault cannons were back in 4th, but they decided to reduce the effectiveness of rending and increase the points cost at the same time. To be honest, the assault cannon is still a really effective weapon (better than lascannons for tank hunting) and is probably worth the points, but not on a fragile Landspeeder chassis. On a Baal Predator (for example) the assault cannons work because of the better armour, meaning that the 24" range isn't such an issue. But on a Landspeeder that could possibly be shot down by bolter fire...

 

That's part of the reason why in Codex: Space Marine armies you see Typhoons widely used, but not Tornados, even though they're the same points. They're both effective weapons, but the Typhoon can stay back and use it's range to protect itself.

[Isiah]

Nice to see you back again Master Toddius. Sorry to hear about the poor GW experience – but it's cool that it didn't put you off the hobby :D.

 

Great model indeed. I'd also agree with Spaced Hulk that the top looks a bit chunky. But having seen the Storm Talon, 'chunkiness' is in. So leave it as it is I think.

 

On the points of Typhoons/Tornados, I agree with your reasonings. But just to add that it was the Jan DA FAQ 2-shot Typhoon Missile Launcher that made the Typhoon so good. Prior to that it seemed over priced. The issue with the Tornado was the 5th Edition 40K downgrading of the rending rule that of which happened after our 4th Ed Codex was written – and took the gloss off the assault cannon as a weapon I think.

[ValourousHeart]

Just thought I would toss one more match on this fire.

RWAS can not outflank if you include a speeder in the unit.

 

That wasn't the case before you left, but that is how it works now.

 

That was just one of many nerfs that my preferred build was hit with.

[Master Toddius]

@ Spaced:

 

If you don't mind me asking, what job did you have with them?

 

I was setting myself up to have my own store while learning the ropes at a bunker. I don't want to get too negative about it because it'll reflect more as me complaining than anything else. We come here to get away from the less positive things in life. But it was fairly bad, probably the most hostile work environment i've ever waded through. That store is now down almost 40% in sales and its going to tail spin. A number of regulars are just done with that place.

 

It seems quite bulky (unlike the rest of the model) and I wonder if it would look better split up, perhaps a single heavy bolter on each wing mount? The assault cannons are absolutely ace though.

 

Ya I kinda agree with you on the bulkiness of the turret. The hope was for the quad turbines to counter balance the weight of the turret but it does seem a little heavy. My thought now is to adjust the turret to the use the BASTION UPGRADE PACK heavy bolters and modify them to utilize the turret. The hb's are much smaller in comparison. If i also forgo the armor capping the weapon the look should be sleeker. The original thought was to paint the current turret to look like R2-D2. ^_^

I've see other Sammy Speeders with wing tip weapons and the concept is sound - I just wanted to be a little different.

Thanks for the compliments, Spaced. Good to see us old vets still around.

 

They're both effective weapons, but the Typhoon can stay back and use it's range to protect itself.

 

That sort of is my point. The ability to stay at range with a light armor vehicle and deliver huge punches is exponentially more powerful then having to get in close. The battle field area effect is much greater. Speed and range in itself is it best defenses where as the tornado Must get in close to be effective. The amount of dice coming from a tornado will be used in later turns which will reduce its effectiveness as well. The Typhoon is normally dangerous on turn 1. In my opinion the Tornado should be no more than 75-80pts. Especially since our speeders don't get cool defensive add-ons like Dark Eldar and Tau.

 

 

@ =][=:

Nice to see you back again Master Toddius. Sorry to hear about the poor GW experience – but it's cool that it didn't put you off the hobby ^_^.

Great model indeed. I'd also agree with Spaced Hulk that the top looks a bit chunky. But having seen the Storm Talon, 'chunkiness' is in. So leave it as it is I think.

 

This has been a passion of ours for far too long to allow some immature d-baggery ruin the hobby. So yes i'm in for as long as GW doesn't implode the hobby with prices that tip the balance in favor of dedicating my $$ and time to alternative games like Dust, Flames of War, or War Machine. I'm also excited to see what direction Mike McVey goes as well. His Sedition War models are amazing. And I still have a huge amount of Battletech.

I'm not a fan of the Storm Talon or Raven. They are horribly ugly models IMHO. I WILL be getting the Storm Eagle from FW, though. The eagle model is REALLY well designed. The Talon looks like it should have a Hasbro insignia on it, or Cobra from GI Joe. Way weird. It would fit right into a future Toy Story movie. :unsure:

I will reduce the profile of the turret, now LOL!

 

Just thought I would toss one more match on this fire.

RWAS can not outflank if you include a speeder in the unit.

 

That wasn't the case before you left, but that is how it works now.

 

That was just one of many nerfs that my preferred build was hit with.

 

OMG VH, I just looked that up now and i'm in shock. That is really ridiculous... Sigh. Thanks for the 411.

 

 

++Edit: By the way - I still have a ton of work to do on this model. Its VERY WIP.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Welcome back MT, I'm glad your cynicism level has been refreshed to a suitably DA level.

 

Your Sammy LS model looks cool, can't wait to see the modified HB.

 

I used Typhoons with MM when they weren't much better than a 48" TL-HB, now they rock. I used to use 3x WWs with mine layers too heaps too, not very orthodox I know but by the end of a game there'd be 18 large templates protecting of one of my flanks.

The changes have made it a no-brainer which to choose in a cookie-cutter list. Tornado pattern LS are still cool but they are nowhere near as efficient.

 

s

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Not too fond of the AC location. While makes sense putting the cannon on the axis of the craft, doesn't look marine-y. I would put the towards the back, joined in the hull. Other than that some good details on the conversion.. :tu:

[shabbadoo]

I think it is the size of the heavy bolters which is somewhat off putting. You've got tank-sized heavy bolters mixed in with Land Speeder-sized assault cannons,and it stands out just a bit too much. Perhaps you could take two Land Speeder heavy bolters and link them in a smaller package up top that would fit on a much, much smaller rotating turret. A perfect example of this would be the bits that are used to mount the twin heavy flamers on the Chaos Defiler, which are the bits to the left and right in this pic:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e245/btmcrae/defilersmallturretbits.jpg

 

Not having extras of those bits, and wanting to make all of the weapon options available on the Defiler (at least those that come in the kit), I made a second small turret mounting system using plastic and the small Rhino hatch seen circled here:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e245/btmcrae/sm-vs1.jpg

 

Considering your apparent modeling skills, doing the same should be no problem for you. :P The under-over assault cannon configuration is a bit radical, and perhaps a side-by-side, hull-mounted position would look better (aesthetically speaking). Still looks decent though, and it certainly stands out. Anybody who can't tell your Master of the Ravenwing's Land Speeder apart from those of the rest of the 2nd Company needs their head checked. ;)

[atra angelus]

Welcome back MT, you're not the only angel to return from the warp recently.

 

The model looks pretty cool, but I agree it probably needs to get shorter for the AC nose to look right. Using small HBs with no cap on top could do the trick.

 

About the LS versions... taking an attached one is basically a non-option for efficient play. It's overpriced, removes deployment options, and can no longer score. The only place it has is when trying to maximize the total number of speeders on the table, as ValorousHeart has pointed out before, where having 2-6 more individual speeders on top of 3 squadrons can really have some impact. Well, and I suppose in team or scenario games where compressing your FoC choices down a slot might have some impact, but that won't generally come up in pick up and tournament style games.

 

The Typhoon, however, is easily an efficient choice in many lists. When playing to win I frequently use 3, its less than a land raider for 6 fast moving ML shots a turn, and they can still contest objectives even if they lose their guns. They rarely, if ever, disappoint, and I find they play much better without being pressed close into that 24" bubble the Tornado necessitates. I've had better experiences with the HB over the MM, but I tend to run a fair number of fists, dreads, and sometimes devs and then keep the Typhoons back some, so I don't miss the odd MM shot too much considering after getting it into range its often the only thing I could fire. You are correct that with the current errata, the Typhoon is a strong choice.

[EPK]

Welcome back and that's looking good!

 

I agree with the others on the HB and was also thinking the quad-engine was a bit clunky as well. Maybe go with the tri-engine setup that the storm uses? Just a small nitpick.

[FinylCut]

Master Toddius, that's a very unique take on the MotR! I've always admired your Strike Force Corvus over at the Fortress of the Unforgiven. To learn you've more than doubled its size is impressive. I look forward to seeing your progress.

 

I'm disappointed with the changes to land speeders. While Typhoons are certainly potent now, I've always liked the assault cannon. I still magnetize my speeders should GW correct the points or balance the weapons in the future. Then there is the rumor we may be getting a new speeder variant in the near future. I certainly wouldn't mind DA uniqueness moving in that direction being part of the 2nd company.

 

FC

[Master Toddius]

Ok, so I went ahead and took care of some of the issues I saw based on all the posters comments. The HB is a modified MoRW TL HB that has been split into 2 separate HB's, and then i cut the ammo feed off the original HB's and glued them unto the current ones. I then also adjusted the position of the mount to accommodate the much smaller weapons. The proportions seem to work for me. The forward radar dish and antenna has been removed. I also removed the AC pod vent and repositioned the optical sensor unto the rear of the AC pod. It all seems more streamlined now.

Thanks Stobz, good to see ya again. Ya it looks as though I might be running 5 bike squadrons with 3 typhoons now instead of 4 bike squadrons as per my normal 2000pt RW lists.

Not too fond of the AC location. While makes sense putting the cannon on the axis of the craft, doesn't look marine-y. I would put the towards the back, joined in the hull

Hey, CL. I've seen the AC on the hull with other mods and although it is a sound concept - my need to explore a different direction compelled me into this configuration. Maybe it'll grow on you a little more as time progresses.

Shabbadoo - DARN IT! I should have started the process of design after throwing more concepts on here prior to the build. Those are some great ideas! I'll probably use those in an upcoming conversion, though. Thanks for the heads up!

Welcome back MT, you're not the only angel to return from the warp recently.

The model looks pretty cool, but I agree it probably needs to get shorter for the AC nose to look right. Using small HBs with no cap on top could do the trick.

AA!! Good to see ya still holding true to the 1st legion! When I was playing with the AC placement the idea of doing a gun pod really struck me as a cool idea. And I know everyone thinks the AC is too far out in front of the hull currently, but in reality it isn't.

The original placement is only about a 1/2 inch short of the current one. I think the pics might be a little deceiving. ;)

I think we're both in agreement with the way the lists have to be built now. It almost seems like the individual throwing out rule changes on the RW in the errata had little idea of what they were saying. Almost as if they thought we were competing with forces like WS's or something. I just have to shake my head. And yes, GW as a whole is like this. Most everything is a knee jerk reaction and most everyone is just shooting form the hip.

Welcome back and that's looking good!

I agree with the others on the HB and was also thinking the quad-engine was a bit clunky as well. Maybe go with the tri-engine setup that the storm uses? Just a small nitpick.

Thanks EPK. With the new pics - does the quad engine variant still seem to be bulky compared to the tri engine? I originally was going to tear apart a ls storm to make this conversion, but then thought better of it because Sammy is one of the only SM pilots out there that can do orbital insertions with his speeder. So would having the quad engines give him enough control and boost to make it all possible? I don't know. Also it would seem to me that a shield which can produce armor 14 would use a lot of energy. Maybe the extra turbine helps produce this power? Was just an intuitive move on my part.

I'm disappointed with the changes to land speeders. While Typhoons are certainly potent now, I've always liked the assault cannon. I still magnetize my speeders should GW correct the points or balance the weapons in the future. Then there is the rumor we may be getting a new speeder variant in the near future. I certainly wouldn't mind DA uniqueness moving in that direction being part of the 2nd company.

I magnetize EVERYTHING on my speeders as well. Its a smart move - especially when seeing a lot of wonky rules changes by GW over the years. You never know what evil is brewing to wreck our codex. Thanks for the compliments. :cuss I'm excited to see all 8 painted up and ready to rock.

[Bryan Blaire]

I liked your original set up for the speeder, Master Toddius, with the exception that I like the new heavy bolter set up better. Awesome work! I think the quad engines and over-under assault cannons are nicely done as well.

 

I agree with the assessments on the speeders for Ravenwing use as well. Sadly, Tornadoes just aren't worth it, even if I think they look cooler than the Typhoons.

[shabbadoo]

I do like the "X-Wing" configuration too. :)

[atra angelus]

AA!! Good to see ya still holding true to the 1st legion! When I was playing with the AC placement the idea of doing a gun pod really struck me as a cool idea. And I know everyone thinks the AC is too far out in front of the hull currently, but in reality it isn't.

Thanks. For what its worth, I meant shorter in height, not length, lol. The original bolters seemed too top heavy and tall, like it was a flying tower so to speak. I think the change to these new HBs is a good step. The AC sticking out long in front looks okay modeling wise, as long as no one gets uppity about "modeling for advantage" in your area for starting the range so far out it looks okay to me. I like the angel icons on the hull side too, a few more of those for bling around the hull and some paint and I imagine the proportions will look better to the eye. Don't forget to file down the hub the HBs are tacked too, right now it stands up a bit like a fin in the middle there.

 

 

I think we're both in agreement with the way the lists have to be built now. It almost seems like the individual throwing out rule changes on the RW in the errata had little idea of what they were saying. Almost as if they thought we were competing with forces like WS's or something. I just have to shake my head. And yes, GW as a whole is like this. Most everything is a knee jerk reaction and most everyone is just shooting form the hip.

Yes, certainly a topic which could fill its own thread. Anymore I either make lists to win, or lists for fun (usually the latter, but its always worth knowing how to use the former). That doesn't mean they're wholly sub-optimal, just that at some level you have to accept the fact its an old book, and moving away from the few good items can severely cost you against a top flight book. Ravenwing are still one of the hardest units to use for me, they are very susceptible to poor rolling, expensive for what they do, and difficult to make an impact with over the entire game (ie, easy to be useful in turn 1 with 6 bikes, but with only 1-2 bikes left on turn 5 its tough to have them perform). The lone Typhoons are much more consistent and versatile. I don't have the models to do a full RW list right, it will be interesting to see how it goes for you with so many bikes on the table. I've seen lists about spamming speeders, but not as many about bikes.

 

Which reminds me, you're modeling the speeder here... any plans for the Jetbike? Or have you decided to stick with history and just go with the speeder every time?

[Master Toddius]

The rear of the turret base needs something, possibly a wing or a sensor stack, not sure.

I also need to add rivets to the whole model. Probably the last move on the model. Now unto the rear of the piece, time to complete the quad turbine detailing. Hoping the rear section will help me work out the side sections as well.

I liked your original set up for the speeder, Master Toddius, with the exception that I like the new heavy bolter set up better. Awesome work! I think the quad engines and over-under assault cannons are nicely done as well.

Thanks brother. Digging your DA paint experiment thread greatly. I like how you systematically paint 4 models with slight variances in order to decide the final product. Smartly done.

I do like the "X-Wing" configuration too. :D

It is an homage to several Sci-Fi fighter craft ;)

Which reminds me, you're modeling the speeder here... any plans for the Jetbike? Or have you decided to stick with history and just go with the speeder every time?

I gave my pewter jetbike to a friend whom enjoys running that variant. I personally don't find him interesting. Maybe is his rules, maybe I just like speeders. If there was a jetbike command squad option (like an Eldar seer Council of sorts) then maybe... otherwise sammy speeder is my fave. More firepower, more kills, flying shield for the rest of my speeders.

[EPK]

Thanks EPK. With the new pics - does the quad engine variant still seem to be bulky compared to the tri engine? I originally was going to tear apart a ls storm to make this conversion, but then thought better of it because Sammy is one of the only SM pilots out there that can do orbital insertions with his speeder. So would having the quad engines give him enough control and boost to make it all possible? I don't know. Also it would seem to me that a shield which can produce armor 14 would use a lot of energy. Maybe the extra turbine helps produce this power? Was just an intuitive move on my part.

 

Now that I see a straight shot on the back, I think it works. Of course your fluff rationale makes perfect sense to me. Orbital insertion is one thing - getting back out to low orbit if needed is another and I think the quad-engine could help accomplish that.

 

I'd almost like to see this thing fully enclosed, but that would totally loose the cool factor of actually seeing Sammy.

[Evil eyeball]

Of magnetizing, My first speeder has 6 Magnets on the speeder body itself...

2 for typhoons, 2 for tornado weapon mounting, one on the neck of the driver to swap out his head and one on his arm

I then magnetized a standard driver head, a standard driver arm, an assault cannon a twin linked assault cannon typhoon launchers heavy bolters and twin heavy bolters a multi melta and a raven sword.

I need to get a head for sammy that will work good in this mode.

 

My next two will not feature the magnetized driver soley because one can only field one sammael so yeah no need to have him do anything other than drive