The Edict of Nikea

[Kol Saresk]

Now, before everyone sits there and rolls their eyes and go "Not this again." I want you to hear me out.

 

Now, we all know that the current interpretation of the Edict of Nikea as presented by Black library is that the Edict banned the use of psychic powers and ordered that the Librariums be disbanded and that the Librarians return to normal duty. We also know of at least three Legions that willfully disobeyed this Edict before the Heresy even erupted: the Alpha Legion, the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves.

 

Now, as I understand it, the older fluff stated that the Edict banned sorcery, not psychic powers. After reading The Lion, I noticed something. When Nemiel is railing against the Librarians being allowed to use their powers, he doesn't argue against psykers. He argues against sorcery. And after re-reading the account of the Edict in A Thousand Sons, the Emperor says "But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes." It then goes on to order the Librariums being disbanded, Librarians returning to the normal ranks and that they should no longer use their psychic powers.

 

Now, psychic powers were listed by name in what wasn't an argument against psychic powers, but against sorcery. Now, since the psychic powers were outlawed, some of the older fans didn't like this because it was different. But we still know that while the loyal Space Wolves still used Rune Priests, they did so because they did not view their powers as sorcery. Now, despite what some fans would like to think, I do not believe that the Space Wolves had special dispensation to tread where others did not. But they did fight alongside Custodes who were well aware of the Edict, but did not take any action against the Wolves.

 

So my thing is this, is it possible the Edict was misunderstood? That instead of psychic powers, it was meant to stop sorcery and as superstitious as even the atheistic Imperium was, psychic power was put hand in hand with sorcery, much as the Thousand Sons and the Death Guard viewed it, judging by Mortarion's account of rogue psykers? I mean, we are seeing evidence were the Emperor is well within range of Librarians using their powers and yet doing nothing about it. One of them was even guided by the Emperor in opening a psychic lock. Or at least he thinks he was and his point of view strongly supports this. But in both cases however, only pure psychic powers were used. No warp sorcery at all. Yet they were allowed to live. And one of the cases was a Thousand Son Librarian running loose on Terra who did everything from telepathy to telekinesis to even altering his own genes. So is it possible that these differences were misunderstood by the Imperium at large and that the Edict itself was misunderstood when it disbanded the Librariums and forbade sorcery?

 

I ask because of the above evidence. And since perception has so much to do with the fluff, is it possible that Arhiman simply misunderstood what he heard? Or is it that it outlawed the powers simply to prevent sorcery until humanity reached a stage where people actually listened to common sense and drew on their power and not the warp?

 

Note: It is entirely possible that I am just rambling.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, you've also got the evidence supporting Ahrimans views in Deliverance Lost, where the ex-Librarian in the Raven Guard is prevented from using psychic powers by the Custodes, something that wouldn't happen under your proposed interpretation. You even admit within your post that the Emperor banning the use of psychic powers, something that doesn't sit right if it was just a disbanding of the Librariums and the banning of sorcery.

[Kol Saresk]

But Deliverance Lost is where the Raven Guard psyker did use his powers when they were recovering the gene-tech and believed that the Emperor guided his powers. With no retribution. From the Custodes or otherwise. I admit, how I posted is very confusing. I just don't really know how to organize it and it still get my point across without looking like I was just ripping something out of context and then blowing it out of proprtion. And the Space Wolves used a Rune Priest. Yet they also received no retribution from the Custodes that were with them either.

[Epistolary Exander]

But Deliverance Lost is where the Raven Guard psyker did use his powers when they were recovering the gene-tech and believed that the Emperor guided his powers. With no retribution. From the Custodes or otherwise. I admit, how I posted is very confusing. I just don't really know how to organize it and it still get my point across without looking like I was just ripping something out of context and then blowing it out of proprtion. And the Space Wolves used a Rune Priest. Yet they also received no retribution from the Custodes that were with them either.

 

I think the common perception of how the Edict banned all Astartes psykers is correct. I think the Custodes allowed the SW to use Rune priests for a couple of reasons. Firstly the Custodes allowing the SW to use Rune Priests would allow the legion to have more anti psyker defence when they were fighting against the Thousand Sons. Secondly Valdor apparently was in favour of the SW destroying the Thousand Sons and so he would happily order the Custodes to look the other way with the Wolves using Rune Priests.

[Purge The Weak]

To be fair... Your not going to make a point further as a custodes, when there is a RG primarch stood in your way.

 

Also remember that Choas was present at the Edict. It was more beneficial for it to get psykers fully banned to stop them countering deamons.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Kol Saresk: I am one of those disgruntled older fans, and would like very much for your theory to be correct.

 

I do feel however that the HH series has changed sorcery to psychic powers in the Edict, which makes the Wolves hypocrites and doesnt do anything to explain the RG situation on Terra. Go BL Go!

 

WLK

[A D-B]

Now, as I understand it, the older fluff stated that the Edict banned sorcery, not psychic powers.

 

Here's the problem. It's the same thing.

 

The IP is slow to explain a lot of key things like this, and things that may have been explained badly in the past have been built upon elsewhere in the IP and taken as gospel for decades, but new material is taking pains to explain that it's ultimately the same thing. There are a bajillion ways to interact with the warp. Calling it "sorcery" and "psychic powers" are basically just two. They're simple for a gamey perspective, but they lack a lot of the nuance involved, and are merely two of the many kersquillions of ways to do the exact same thing, the same way, but consider it differently through human misunderstanding.

 

 

@Kol Saresk: I am one of those disgruntled older fans, and would like very much for your theory to be correct.

 

I do feel however that the HH series has changed sorcery to psychic powers in the Edict, which makes the Wolves hypocrites and doesnt do anything to explain the RG situation on Terra. Go BL Go!

 

WLK

 

A classic misunderstanding.

 

When the HH series is the only thing updating the old lore and getting the chance to explain it better, all under the direct aegis of GW's UIP department, it's slightly mental to imply it's some rogue element getting things wrong or changing things without consideration. The reason it's different from what you know is because it's the only thing updating the lore in that area. And it's retroactively explaining how stuff works. You may hate it, sure. But just because something contradicts older lore doesn't make it wrong.

 

Also, it's worth noting that in this example, you're essentially looking at the incomplete picture and judging it with what you're assuming are mistakes. Essentially, Luke has just picked up his lightsaber, and you're saying "But how can he kill Vader? He's just a farm boy with a laser sword. He can't even get off this desert planet."

 

Maybe, dude, it'll all make sense when more than a fraction of the story is complete.

[Kol Saresk]

Thanks for explaining that A-D-B.

[A D-B]

Thanks for explaining that A-D-B.

 

We inhabit a messy, wonderful, insane setting. I'm sure it'll all change around again in a handful of years.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

A classic misunderstanding.

 

When the HH series is the only thing updating the old lore and getting the chance to explain it better, all under the direct aegis of GW's UIP department, it's slightly mental to imply it's some rogue element getting things wrong or changing things without consideration. The reason it's different from what you know is because it's the only thing updating the lore in that area. And it's retroactively explaining how stuff works. You may hate it, sure. But just because something contradicts older lore doesn't make it wrong.

 

Also, it's worth noting that in this example, you're essentially looking at the incomplete picture and judging it with what you're assuming are mistakes. Essentially, Luke has just picked up his lightsaber, and you're saying "But how can he kill Vader? He's just a farm boy with a laser sword. He can't even get off this desert planet."

 

Maybe, dude, it'll all make sense when more than a fraction of the story is complete.

 

Well, saying "Go BL Go" was a error on my part. In the future i'll write "Go GW's UIP department Go!". I had no intention of implying it was a "rouge element" or any such nonsense making their own changes. I just typed lazily because this is just a net forum. (Where opinions are like assh*les, everybody has oen and most of them are full of sh!t)

 

And when the HH series is done, then we can have have informed opinions. But until then we are here to guesstimate, and form opinions, (see above comment on that) on the information that has been provided so far. Maybe incomplete but what else can be expected? If we didnt care enough to form opinions on the topic then we're in the wrong hobby.

 

if we didnt do that, we'd just sit at home staring at release dates and saying nothing.

 

WLK

[jeffersonian000]

One thing people are missing is that the institution of the Librarium was created by Magnus, just like the institution of Chaplains with created by Lorgar. At the time of the Edict of Nikea, all Librarians were Sorcerors as they were trained in the same techniques and traditions as the Thousand Sons. At some point in the future of the HH timeline, we should see either a re-institution of the Librarium program under a new creed (the one we have post-Heresy), or some other garbage retcon that generates more questions than answers. What we do know is that the "Runic" magic of the Wolves is not considered "Sorcery" by the Emperor or the Space Wolves, even though the Thousand Sons think it is the same as they use only named differently. The distinction seems to be that "Sorcery" (as a specific name for the Thousand Sons methodology) binds the psyker to an avatar (minor chaos entity, i.e., daemon), while "Runic" (as a specific name for the Space Wolves methodology) seems to focus more on wielding power through a focus than via bindings. As we know, Imperial Psykers are bound to the Emperor directly.

 

It can be assumed that when the Librarium is re-instituted post-Siege of Terra that the methodology used will be either "Runic" or "Imperial" simply because the Edict bans the "Sorcery" methodology. There is enough evidence to point to the Runic method becoming the Astartes standard based on how current fluff portrays psychic powers being used (although Grey Knights obviously use a variant of Sorcery, with bindings made to the group rather to one entity).

 

SJ

[Legatus]

Now, as I understand it, the older fluff stated that the Edict banned sorcery, not psychic powers.

Here's the problem. It's the same thing.

 

The IP is slow to explain a lot of key things like this, and things that may have been explained badly in the past have been built upon elsewhere in the IP and taken as gospel for decades, but new material is taking pains to explain that it's ultimately the same thing. There are a bajillion ways to interact with the warp. Calling it "sorcery" and "psychic powers" are basically just two. They're simple for a gamey perspective, but they lack a lot of the nuance involved, and are merely two of the many kersquillions of ways to do the exact same thing, the same way, but consider it differently through human misunderstanding.

I guess now it is meant to be the same thing. But in previous lore it wasn't. As commendable as your attempts to reconcile the newer lore with the old lore are, a lot of what is being published by GW these days is retconned, plain and simple. Not only did the Index Astartes of the Thousand Sons gave a distinction between sorcery and psychic abilities (which the Emperor acknowledged), the Edict of Nikaea, which decreed that psyker should be carefully observed and trained, and that sorcery should forever be outlawed, was said to stand to this day. However, in the Horus Heresy books it is about to be overturned, since there it had banned any kind of use of psychic powers.

[Billuriye]

Sorcery and psykery are the same? I thought sorcery is consorting with warp entities for a desired effect. Like, anyone could pull it off with enough lore and willpower. If they are the same then that means Kor Phaeron, Erebus and Luther are psykers right?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I think folks over-complicate.

 

The edict of Nikea shut down all use of pyschic powers by the Astartes, it banned the Librarians and imposed upon them an oath to never use their powers.

 

The Space Wolves being self-rightous and convinced their way is the only way ignores the edict on the grounds they don't practice sorcery and they don't have Librarians tainted by the teachings of Magnus. The small Adeptus Custodes contingent assighned to Prospero, surrounded by the Emperor's chosen executioners, led by their Primarch don't challenge the Rune priests in the Wolf's ranks. This inidcates that the custodes are not stupid as kicking up a fuss in that situation would be a bit one sided, even the custodes don't outrank a primarch, especialy a pissed off Russ of a primarch in the middle of wiping out a brother legion.

 

The council of Nikea comes across as the Emperor making a quick fix to a problem that is really starting to divide the legions, better to make an edict banning pyskers than risk Primarchs coming to blows, after all what's the worst that can happen?........

 

So far the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels have begun to realise just what exactly they are dealing with and are coming to the conclusion that they really need psykers to fight daemons.

 

This is the simplified events so far, it's not unreasonable to assume that the edict of Nikea will be overturned at some point when knowledge of the true foe becomes more widespread.

[Kol Saresk]

Sorcery and psykery are the same? I thought sorcery is consorting with warp entities for a desired effect. Like, anyone could pull it off with enough lore and willpower. If they are the same then that means Kor Phaeron, Erebus and Luther are psykers right?

According to the GW IP department, yes they are the same and yes they are on their way to becoming psykers. Well Luther is since Erebus and Kor Phaeron are already there.

[Phoros]

Well, I guess this debunks my theory: that the Edict outlawed psykers, but that Guilliman et al modified the records to say that it outlawed sorcery. This had two effects: 1. allowing Codex-adherant Chapters to use Librarians, and 2. making Magnus look more like he was in the wrong.

[MordentHex]

I think folks over-complicate.

 

The edict of Nikea shut down all use of pyschic powers by the Astartes, it banned the Librarians and imposed upon them an oath to never use their powers.

 

The Space Wolves being self-rightous and convinced their way is the only way ignores the edict on the grounds they don't practice sorcery and they don't have Librarians tainted by the teachings of Magnus. The small Adeptus Custodes contingent assighned to Prospero, surrounded by the Emperor's chosen executioners, led by their Primarch don't challenge the Rune priests in the Wolf's ranks. This inidcates that the custodes are not stupid as kicking up a fuss in that situation would be a bit one sided, even the custodes don't outrank a primarch, especialy a pissed off Russ of a primarch in the middle of wiping out a brother legion.

 

The council of Nikea comes across as the Emperor making a quick fix to a problem that is really starting to divide the legions, better to make an edict banning pyskers than risk Primarchs coming to blows, after all what's the worst that can happen?........

 

So far the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels have begun to realize just what exactly they are dealing with and are coming to the conclusion that they really need psykers to fight daemons.

 

This is the simplified events so far, it's not unreasonable to assume that the edict of Nikea will be overturned at some point when knowledge of the true foe becomes more widespread.

1.This is over simplified and also bias.

2. Space wolf rune priests an also be "tainted" Its not Hubris or arrogance they just seem to appreciate the real dangers that can happen from such powers. I am by no means a SW fan but in this i think they are justified.

3. The Emperor did not make a "quick fix" I'm sure he would weigh the pro's and con's but ultimately we all know that meeting was manipulated by different characters and powers towards the ending result. In hindsight it may have been a bad call, but thats the advantage we have as readers and hindsight. Just goes to show how much planning and manipulating the dark gods put into setting up the whole thing from way back before we even know or have noticed.

Sorry to pick you out specifically bro but i think it requires a little deeper dissecting sense thats what we seem to be doing. I have found very little simple or at face value anywhere in this games universe except maybe the described affect of bolter rounds on non-astartes.

 

Luther isn't psychic or dealing with warp entities. He was using words of power. I may be wrong on this and if i am sorry but from what i read he was just using those words to fight. Granted he does seem to have stepped over the line but no where near as much as the word bears. I do not think they actually would make you a psycher but could very well give you psycher like abilities. Chaos words hurt the eyes to even look at, I don' t recall his writting being described as such. From the other books those words in themselves are not inherently evil just a verbal conduct for some elemental power whether it be warp based or just a basic building block of the universe. Those words where used by another character in fall of Prospero and the space wolves didn't seem to freak out over it. That old 40k saying "knowledge is power guard it well" could very well have another meaning referring to this exact thing. I believe those words may be the flip-side of the coin to what Erebus and Kor Phaeron are doing with ritual and demonic pacts. There has to be a line where this is drawn but where exactly is it drawn in the sand is the big question.

[Heru2012]

Yeah, I think you have to look at the degrees of seperation from source. All powers fall under the "psychic power catergory". You then have the degrees of seperation.

 

Dedication: Dedicating yourself to a particular entity, so that even without psychic ability of your own of note, remembering all humans but pariahs have some sort of presence in the warp, and therefore can receive a redbull from the gods.

 

Sorcery: Blood Magic. Using the life force of other psykers/daemonic/benign entities to heighten the power level of a psychic power, hence Magnus sacrificing psykers to produce a power greater than he could have wit just himself, even being aided by a warp entity to breach the webway. Think binding daemons with sigils to force them into service.

 

Totemic/runic powers: Ala space wolves. They believe they draw their power from Fenris, using runes or totems that draw power from the warp, filtering it out, removing the temptation of whispering entities, so that only pure warp energy may be used. They then use this to feed powers. Essentially using a siv to filter out "bad ju ju mon".

 

Psychic channeling: Basically what psykers use. These just draw power direct from the warp, trying not to attract the attention of any sinister elements.

 

Enuncia: Pretty much power words, they are primordial sounds that carry muchos weight, channeling the power of the warp through them. Think the true name of an angel, the words of god and creation, they again have no direct connection to the warp, there is no channeling of power, just syllables that when uttered unleash the primordial powers of creation.

 

 

Now all of these things were used in various ways, and all banned by the Edict of Nikaea as the Emperor planned. But as a well used phrase states, no plan survives contact with the enemy. Once the fighting started and like the lion in the primarchs realises, you need fire to beat fire. Seeing as the Emperor sent the custodes and the SWs to Prospero to confront Magnus, I imagine quiet words with Valdor being had, telling him to let it slide.

 

My 2c

[Grimtooth]

Nice to see this being taken in a somewhat more civil manner then usual regarding the edict and what appears to be hypocrisy by the SW. While semantics can be argued as well as what has been retconned and what has yet to be retconned, I want to put forward one of my long held theories regarding the basis of the rune priests.

 

In A Thousand Sons at the council when the Emperor is passing his edict he touches on something interesting,

 

"All men wish to possess knowledge, but few are willing to pay the price. Always men will see to take the short cut the quick route to power, and it is a man's own mind, not his enemy or foe, that will lure him to evil ways. True knowledge is gained only after the acquisition of wisdom. Without wisdom, a powerful person does not become more powerful, he becomes reckless. His power will turn on him and eventually destroy all that he has built."

 

The emboldened text speaks immensely to the Emperor's view of what the Thousand Sons were doing wrong in their never-ending quest for knowledge to increase their powers. On the other side of the spectrum you have the Space Wolves and Fenrisians for that matter, whose foundational basis of all their knowledge has been gleaned from centuries and centuries of experience passed along from one generation to the next. Not as written word, but as spoken sagas repeated over and over again by the skjalds. It is in Prospero Burns that one of the Space Wolves explains to Kasper why there is no written word. In a nutshell it was because you learn nothing from reading an account, you must tell it and do it to learn it.

 

I think this trait possessed by the Fenrisian culture and of course retained by the Space Wolves is exactly what the Emperor is speaking about in the above quote and in my opinion is why the Space Wolves appear by all accounts revealed so far, not bound by the Edict of Nikea.

[Arkangilos]

*edit*

 

Pointless.

[sponsra]

I think folks over-complicate.

 

The edict of Nikea shut down all use of pyschic powers by the Astartes, it banned the Librarians and imposed upon them an oath to never use their powers.

 

The Space Wolves being self-rightous and convinced their way is the only way ignores the edict on the grounds they don't practice sorcery and they don't have Librarians tainted by the teachings of Magnus. The small Adeptus Custodes contingent assighned to Prospero, surrounded by the Emperor's chosen executioners, led by their Primarch don't challenge the Rune priests in the Wolf's ranks. This inidcates that the custodes are not stupid as kicking up a fuss in that situation would be a bit one sided, even the custodes don't outrank a primarch, especialy a pissed off Russ of a primarch in the middle of wiping out a brother legion.

 

The council of Nikea comes across as the Emperor making a quick fix to a problem that is really starting to divide the legions, better to make an edict banning pyskers than risk Primarchs coming to blows, after all what's the worst that can happen?........

 

So far the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels have begun to realise just what exactly they are dealing with and are coming to the conclusion that they really need psykers to fight daemons.

 

This is the simplified events so far, it's not unreasonable to assume that the edict of Nikea will be overturned at some point when knowledge of the true foe becomes more widespread.

 

Yep!

[Piousservant]

Now, as I understand it, the older fluff stated that the Edict banned sorcery, not psychic powers.

 

Here's the problem. It's the same thing.

 

The IP is slow to explain a lot of key things like this, and things that may have been explained badly in the past have been built upon elsewhere in the IP and taken as gospel for decades, but new material is taking pains to explain that it's ultimately the same thing. There are a bajillion ways to interact with the warp. Calling it "sorcery" and "psychic powers" are basically just two. They're simple for a gamey perspective, but they lack a lot of the nuance involved, and are merely two of the many kersquillions of ways to do the exact same thing, the same way, but consider it differently through human misunderstanding.

 

That is the problem, yeah. I get that it has changed, because that's definately not how it used to be, but like a lot of people I gotta say it's a change I don't like at all. Its a retcon which makes no sense regarding the Librarians, Magnus and it makes the Emperor look even more of an idiot that normal (which, incidentally, is one of my biggest problems with the HH series to date - that the Emperor always looks like a tool). Aside from that it's just annoyingly dumb.

 

Also, I don't really get how saying there are different ways to interact with the Warp (and that some are okay, and some are not) is less naunced than saying, "oh yeah, it's all the same thing really..."