The Lion

[Kol Saresk]

Okay just read The Lion and it definitely piqued my curiosity on some issues. Recently it had been suggested in a short story that Lion El'Jonson believed Gulliman was turning Traitor and that he may indeed live up to the age-old belief that he just sat back and watched the Heresy take place. Now, we see that he is truly loyal, but doesn't know who he can trust and believes that either Gulliman is planning on sitting out the Heresy or is going to indeed make his own play for power. Now, this belief is justifiable by the simple fact that he has no idea who to trust.

 

But, at the end of the story, we see something peculiar. He is talking to something, most likely one of the Watchers in the Dark. But he is definitely not acting normal. Is it possible that his loyalty to the Emperor and lack of knowledge concerning those around him that he has become as paranoid as Curze? We see that he is reacting rather harshly when one doesn't explicitly follow his orders when he questions the loyalty of the captain of the Invincible Reason and later when he rips off Nemiel's head, who was a trusted officer.

 

And in a way it brings up another question, are all of the Primarchs' flaws coming to the fore? Is it possible that Lion is right to some degree and Gulliman is simply letting the Heresy happen in the belief that he can at least preserve something by keeping Ultramar out of the fight as much as he can? He has already brought the Iron Hands under his banner. But between him and the Lion, the Lion is the one taking the fight to the Traitors. But at the same time, he is seeing everyone as an enemy unless they have the Emperor's seal of approval.

 

We see the same paranoia from Dorn when Corax shows up at Terra. It's possible that the Blood Angels and Space Wolves would have the same feelings about everyone they came across. Possible, not fact.

 

So is possible, just possible that the Heresy won't be as clear cut as we assumed it would be? That Gulliman may indeed turn traitor to some degree, without turning to Chaos? Or that the Lion is being manipulated to be the villian he was once portrayed as? That Curze might indeed be right about the Emperor's corruption? Is it possible that in the universe where everything you have been told is a lie that the lie is the truth?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Mistrust and deciet is a strong theme in 40k, amongst the loyalists and the traitors, after all, if you just recieved word that one of your mot trusted brothers went AWOL and started a fight with your other most trusted brothers, only to reveal that some of those trusted brothers were in fact on the traitors side id be exactly the same. I know that the true enemies paint themselves fairly clearly (as in the traitor legions/primarchs) but what you have to remember is their imperiums corse beliefs have just took an arrow to the knee resulting in utter crippling confusion.

 

Gulliman, Dorn and The Lions mistrust are just different sides of the same coin.

[Captain Idaho]

My prediction is Guilliman will enact his plan he mentions in the short story Rules of Engagement and it will go wrong in a tragic sense.

 

Unfortunately, I believe it will a bold plan that would end the Heresy but for a tragic betrayal or lack of faith on the part of a crucial element of the plan. I even think it will be the Lion who messes it up and he will do it in a way that resonances from the echoes we see from the "current" Dark Angels - vacating a battlefield to attend another matter of importance to the Dark Angels but not their allies.

 

So is possible, just possible that the Heresy won't be as clear cut as we assumed it would be? That Gulliman may indeed turn traitor to some degree, without turning to Chaos? Or that the Lion is being manipulated to be the villian he was once portrayed as? That Curze might indeed be right about the Emperor's corruption? Is it possible that in the universe where everything you have been told is a lie that the lie is the truth?

 

I have always maintained the Heresy wouldn't be as clear cut. I doubt there will be any real traitorous behaviour from Guilliman, but perhaps a foolish mistake I can envisage. Same goes for the Lion; a mistake but not deliberate heresy.

 

Of course I wouldn't be surprised if the series really darkens the Lion's character. He is certainly behaving VERY irratically and executing a senior officer the way he did was more than a shock.

[Kol Saresk]

That's kind of what I was pointing out. Sometimes, the only betrayal is what we see as a betrayal. The Lion sees Gulliman trying to slavage the Imperium. But since he does not see Gulliman either trying to reach Terra nor protect as much of the Imperium as possible, he views it as a different betrayal. Even if it Isn't. It may indeed work out the way you think. Or it could be that the Lion is right and Gulliman is making his own play for power while truly believing that he is acting in the best interests of the Imperium because he was tainted by the athame that slit his throat, but was instead blinded by Chaos rather than corrupted by it like the Traitors. He was a traitor without ever being a traitor.

[Legatus]

Recently it had been suggested in a short story that Lion El'Jonson believed Gulliman was turning Traitor and that he may indeed live up to the age-old belief that he just sat back and watched the Heresy take place.

It is ironic that that accusation was originally leveled against Jonson, not Guilliman, in the 'Angels of Darkness' book. And I was somewhat disappointed that A D-B, who had explained that he wanted to exonerate Jonson in his short story 'Savage Weapons' (and had done exactly that), in turn implicated Guilliman of something similar in that story.

[Aegnor]

Jonson's reaction to Guilliman is all about Jonson - and ADB has responded affirmatively to this on these boards when I've suggested the same in the past. His views about whether Guilliman is doing the right thing or not have little bearing on whether RG IS doing the right thing - they are a product of the Lion's own suspicious, brooding and at times very absolutist character (you're either with me or against me) combined with the stress of the lack of trust after the Heresy breaks and the twin experiences of being tricked by Perterabo in Fallen Angels and the discussion he had with Curze in Savage Weapons. Those things are playing on the Lion's mind, and exaggerating his tendency to doubt the motives of others. Hell, the whole time the issue of his break with Luther is probably playing on his mind at some level as well.

 

The Lion is a genius, a great strategist and general, but he has flaws. Those flaws are products of his innate character and his experiences on Caliban as a child, where he had no-one he could trust or rely on for help. When he did find someone - Luther - that trust was later broken by Luther when he turned out to have human frailties. These flaws are coming to light under the stress-test of the Heresy, and we're going to see the Lion do some bad things - albeit from a position of him trying to do right as he sees it.

[MordentHex]

Jonson's reaction to Guilliman is all about Jonson - and ADB has responded affirmatively to this on these boards when I've suggested the same in the past. His views about whether Guilliman is doing the right thing or not have little bearing on whether RG IS doing the right thing - they are a product of the Lion's own suspicious, brooding and at times very absolutist character (you're either with me or against me) combined with the stress of the lack of trust after the Heresy breaks and the twin experiences of being tricked by Perterabo in Fallen Angels and the discussion he had with Curze in Savage Weapons. Those things are playing on the Lion's mind, and exaggerating his tendency to doubt the motives of others. Hell, the whole time the issue of his break with Luther is probably playing on his mind at some level as well.

 

The Lion is a genius, a great strategist and general, but he has flaws. Those flaws are products of his innate character and his experiences on Caliban as a child, where he had no-one he could trust or rely on for help. When he did find someone - Luther - that trust was later broken by Luther when he turned out to have human frailties. These flaws are coming to light under the stress-test of the Heresy, and we're going to see the Lion do some bad things - albeit from a position of him trying to do right as he sees it.

 

Agreed. Also I think he is really starting to show his darker side and his lack of humility and ability to empathize with others push him further over the edge as things start falling to little pieces around him and the DA.

 

Edit: his fall from grace should be a great read. My favorite DA characters live so ultimately anything that happens to the lion is just side story for me. <_<

[Kol Saresk]

The greatest irony of the Unforgiven is that they are all Fallen Angels.

[Aegnor]

@ MordentHex - I think "fall from grace" is probably too strong a term for what I expect we'll see (though of course I will likely be proven wrong). I don't think he'll fall in terms of his motivations or intentions shifting, as I think even Magnus did - I think he is however going to make several disastrous decisions that will harm the cause he would say he is ultimately trying to serve. Don't know if I'm splitting the hair of an angel dancing on a pinhead there, but I don't think the Lion will ever get to the stage where - even reluctantly or for lack of perceived options - he changes sides.

[Captain Idaho]

Recently it had been suggested in a short story that Lion El'Jonson believed Gulliman was turning Traitor and that he may indeed live up to the age-old belief that he just sat back and watched the Heresy take place.

It is ironic that that accusation was originally leveled against Jonson, not Guilliman, in the 'Angels of Darkness' book. And I was somewhat disappointed that A D-B, who had explained that he wanted to exonerate Jonson in his short story 'Savage Weapons' (and had done exactly that), in turn implicated Guilliman of something similar in that story.

 

I disagree slightly. A D-B might have said he wanted to "exonerate" the Lion (I don't know I missed it) but that doesn't mean he didn't want the Lion to be flawed. You see, by portraying the Lion as believing others who were loyal were in fact his enemies and not to be trusted, he shows the Lion to be loyal and fighting for the Emperor, but keeps the scope to expand on his mistrust and shakey state of mind to run alongside it.

 

Essentially he is showing Johnson to be loyal by intent yet setting him up to make a mistake (or series of them). His implication against Guilliman is an example of this, rather than A D-B telling us "hold on, Johnson is loyal, it's Guilliman who is the traitor".

[Arioch]

My take on this:

 

The Lion killing one of his own men was clearly a mistake the Lion regretted immediatly. He lost his self control for a split second and vented his anger, a thing I would consider unusual in his case, but perhabs a taste of things to come (like the destruction of Caliban). Also I feel Gav wanted to get rid of the character, and chose to do this in a weird, yet spectacular fashion.

 

So far the Dark Angels is taking the fight to the traitors, but have chosen only to count on their own strength. It is an age of darkness and not many remain who can truely be trusted. The Lion mistrusts the Ironhands, but Guilliman is training his soldiers against Salamanders in "Rules of Engagement". Do anyone know of Guillimans plans? So far he has trained his men for the things to come, but does he wish to defend Terra when the time comes? Sure he would never betray the Imperium or join the traitors, but does he plan to assist Terra in any way? I would like to hear some thoughts on this, because if he is just planning for an "Imperium Secundus" he could indeed be called "a traitorous dog at worst".

 

The Lion IS very paranoid in the lattest story so maybe it is simply him who are seeing trators everywhere :P ?

 

What the story revealed:

The Lion is getting more and more paranoid

The Lion did not want to become Warmaster out of personal ambition (the changer of ways tells us his ambition is stunted and he has nothing against his brothers being more prominent than him)

The deamon also tells us that he does not care for the lesser beings, yet his reactions to how the mechanicum treats their servitors suggest otherwise.

[Aegnor]

Remember a daemon, especially a Tzeentchian daemon, says whatever it thinks will best help it manipulate the situation to the desired end. Some of it might be true, but will likely be twisted to suit its aims, just as its lies will contain a grain of truth to be all the more appealing.

[Kol Saresk]

Remember a daemon, especially a Tzeentchian daemon, says whatever it thinks will best help it manipulate the situation to the desired end. Some of it might be true, but will likely be twisted to suit its aims, just as its lies will contain a grain of truth to be all the more appealing.

The biggest lie ever told was the truth. Basically, some people would rather hear the lie.

 

@Idaho: just to clarify, are you saying that this new story is saying the Lion is traitor because he doesn't know who to trust? Sorry, your post was a little confusing to read is all.

 

@Arioch: Gulliman was training Ultramarines against Ultramarines painted up and acting like the other Legions. Basically, he is in the same state as the Lion, just not as volatile. But no, no one outside of BL are aware of his plans.

[MordentHex]

@ MordentHex - I think "fall from grace" is probably too strong a term for what I expect we'll see (though of course I will likely be proven wrong). I don't think he'll fall in terms of his motivations or intentions shifting, as I think even Magnus did - I think he is however going to make several disastrous decisions that will harm the cause he would say he is ultimately trying to serve. Don't know if I'm splitting the hair of an angel dancing on a pinhead there, but I don't think the Lion will ever get to the stage where - even reluctantly or for lack of perceived options - he changes sides.

 

I did not mean literally, just his slow degeneration into madness/distrust. He is a shrewed "man" to say the least. We as readers can see things from a godlike point of view especially when rereading old stories. Ive noticed by doing this He and Luther both has indeed started treading down a dark path. Who's is darker? dont know yet. but I don't think he will turn traitor like the others. Maybe something more along the lines of Nighthaunter or a reflexion of without all the psycho sadistic revenge thing. Whatever happens im sure there will be a lot of grey and little black and white areas to the future story.

[Aegnor]

The biggest lie ever told was the truth. Basically, some people would rather hear the lie.

 

Always find lines like this so endearing naive, in any context. It still contains the assumption that there IS such a thing as truth, and that this truth has some kind of power, or indeed virtue.

 

There is no truth, in 40K or in life. There is what people understand (via their perceptions) and what they perceive (via that understanding). Everyone is right and no-one is.

 

All that we're left with as "certainties" is what we can force others to comply with, and what we can live comfortably with in our own heads.

 

:)

[Captain Idaho]

@Idaho: just to clarify, are you saying that this new story is saying the Lion is traitor because he doesn't know who to trust? Sorry, your post was a little confusing to read is all.

 

Do you mean:

 

I disagree slightly. A D-B might have said he wanted to "exonerate" the Lion (I don't know I missed it) but that doesn't mean he didn't want the Lion to be flawed. You see, by portraying the Lion as believing others who were loyal were in fact his enemies and not to be trusted, he shows the Lion to be loyal and fighting for the Emperor, but keeps the scope to expand on his mistrust and shakey state of mind to run alongside it.

 

Essentially he is showing Johnson to be loyal by intent yet setting him up to make a mistake (or series of them). His implication against Guilliman is an example of this, rather than A D-B telling us "hold on, Johnson is loyal, it's Guilliman who is the traitor".

 

If so, what I was saying A D-B wasn't inditing Guilliman in his explanation of the situation, rather he showed the Lion was loyal but flawed in his interactions amongst his peers.

 

Besides, I actually agree with you here:

 

So is possible, just possible that the Heresy won't be as clear cut as we assumed it would be?

 

***

 

So far the Dark Angels is taking the fight to the traitors, but have chosen only to count on their own strength. It is an age of darkness and not many remain who can truely be trusted. The Lion mistrusts the Ironhands, but Guilliman is training his soldiers against Salamanders in "Rules of Engagement". Do anyone know of Guillimans plans? So far he has trained his men for the things to come, but does he wish to defend Terra when the time comes? Sure he would never betray the Imperium or join the traitors, but does he plan to assist Terra in any way? I would like to hear some thoughts on this, because if he is just planning for an "Imperium Secundus" he could indeed be called "a traitorous dog at worst".

 

Know No Fear explains Guilliman couldn't assist the Imperium in the immediate future which was part of Erebus' plan.

 

Guilliman is indeed training his Legion in scenarios against other Legions, notably the ones from the attack on Istvaan. This shows his lack of Intelligence on the situation (military term for information).

 

He has a plan but we certainly don't quite know what it is. Knowing Guilliman and the situation, he is planning for what will happen if he cannot attend the war until later, which is a worse case scenario. Logically, if by the time he is able to make war on Horus and his forces it will be after the siege of Terra, that means the Imperium would be lost, so it does make sense to consider an Imperium Secondus.

 

But crucially, Guilliman has confirmed his intention to be the man to "put down" Horus at the end of Rules of Engagement.

 

So we just don't know what direction we're going. I can't wait to see it all!

[Kol Saresk]

Okay I just wanted to fully understand your post before I tried to respond. I just wasn't sure what was being said.

[Arioch]

@Arioch: Gulliman was training Ultramarines against Ultramarines painted up and acting like the other Legions. Basically, he is in the same state as the Lion, just not as volatile. But no, no one outside of BL are aware of his plans.

 

Oh I know this, sorry if it wasnt entirely clear. I guess what I wanted to say was that both Guilliman and the Lion lacks trust/Intelligence on who to trust, so in this they are alike.

 

So far the Dark Angels is taking the fight to the traitors, but have chosen only to count on their own strength. It is an age of darkness and not many remain who can truely be trusted. The Lion mistrusts the Ironhands, but Guilliman is training his soldiers against Salamanders in "Rules of Engagement". Do anyone know of Guillimans plans? So far he has trained his men for the things to come, but does he wish to defend Terra when the time comes? Sure he would never betray the Imperium or join the traitors, but does he plan to assist Terra in any way? I would like to hear some thoughts on this, because if he is just planning for an "Imperium Secundus" he could indeed be called "a traitorous dog at worst".

 

Know No Fear explains Guilliman couldn't assist the Imperium in the immediate future which was part of Erebus' plan.

 

Guilliman is indeed training his Legion in scenarios against other Legions, notably the ones from the attack on Istvaan. This shows his lack of Intelligence on the situation (military term for information).

 

He has a plan but we certainly don't quite know what it is. Knowing Guilliman and the situation, he is planning for what will happen if he cannot attend the war until later, which is a worse case scenario. Logically, if by the time he is able to make war on Horus and his forces it will be after the siege of Terra, that means the Imperium would be lost, so it does make sense to consider an Imperium Secondus.

 

But crucially, Guilliman has confirmed his intention to be the man to "put down" Horus at the end of Rules of Engagement.

 

So we just don't know what direction we're going. I can't wait to see it all!

 

Okay, so Guilliman needs to fix his fleet first (or was it the warpstorms?). It will indeed be exciting what he plans to do from there :D

[ForTheLion]

well think about it....the first book had shown the lion had made mistakes even when he was on caliban...like when he goads the senior knight of lupus into a knightly order war (Lord sartana was it?) and how its predicted that the lion will be the destroyer of caliban....he is then again shown to chop nemiels head off because he questioned orders which is another mistake....for a primarch that is supposed to be "inhuman" then any of his brothers, he seems the most human with his flaws....

 

Also take heed of how it never mentions of what happened when the emperor met the lion...like some other books do (deliverance lost was amazing at that)....

 

I wonder if A-D-B will ever grace us with a paragraph of what happened between Big E and the Lion on their first meeting :D

[Purge The Weak]

It shall be interesting to see what happens when the DA and SW meet up !

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

It shall be interesting to see what happens when the DA and SW meet up !

Lion/Leman: S-s-stupid Leman/Lion! I'm not fighting alongside your Legion because I like you or anything!

 

This. This will happen in every chapter.

[Arioch]

well think about it....the first book had shown the lion had made mistakes even when he was on caliban...like when he goads the senior knight of lupus into a knightly order war (Lord sartana was it?) and how its predicted that the lion will be the destroyer of caliban....he is then again shown to chop nemiels head off because he questioned orders which is another mistake....for a primarch that is supposed to be "inhuman" then any of his brothers, he seems the most human with his flaws....

 

Also take heed of how it never mentions of what happened when the emperor met the lion...like some other books do (deliverance lost was amazing at that)....

 

I wonder if A-D-B will ever grace us with a paragraph of what happened between Big E and the Lion on their first meeting :P

 

Uhm goading the Knights of Lupus into open war was not a mistake, more like a calculated step from the Lion to destroy the great beasts (and all opposition towards him, ruthless I know).

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, the only part that I can see the Lion being stupid is what he is doing right now. He is alone and completely isolated, even from Caliban. That and his arrogance. Right now is the perfect time for someone to take him in a straight up fight. Look at what we know about the Night Lords, they are destroying every safe haven. However, we do know that they are based at Tsalgualsa, but that does not guarantee a supply line. But it definitely offers one.. The Dark Angels are spending their resources chasing ghosts, have no established base as well as no supply lines. And most of it is resulting from his paranoia. Although its ironic the Night Haunter is suffering from this in a similar way.

[Candleshoes]

Right now is the perfect time for someone to take him in a straight up fight. Look at what we know about the Night Lords, they are destroying every safe haven. However, we do know that they are based at Tsalgualsa, but that does not guarantee a supply line. But it definitely offers one.. The Dark Angels are spending their resources chasing ghosts, have no established base as well as no supply lines. And most of it is resulting from his paranoia.

 

If you re-read Savage Weapons, there is a section that describes exactly how the war is faring between the Dark Angels and the Night Lords in an open campaign, 1 on 1. They essentially trade victories and losses with one another, one makes headway, the other takes a loss. It is an even grind, with even results, the same results that would likely occur if many of the Legions were to fight a single one of their brothers in a campaign, with no interference.

 

They both have strengths and weaknesses. Both have taken and retaken many worlds, forgeworlds, supply routes and planets to operate from. The size of the conflict and the Legion strengths involves are massive. Neither one has the upper hand, something that Savage Weapons tries very hard to convey.

 

For every time the DA lose badly while chasing ghosts, they butcher NL's when pushing them into open conflict, or cutting out a path to flee.

[Kol Saresk]

And in the Lion, we find out that the Night Lords changed strategy to a sort of "galactic scorched-earth" policy by destroying shipyards that can support cruiser-class and larger ships as well as raiding tactics. It is no longer an "open fight".