Viability of Vanguard Veterans

[SRT]

New to playing 5th edition and seeking some advice. In my first few games against an Ork horde list I've gotten absolutely demolished, and I'm having trouble taking a reasonable chunk out of my opponent. Limiting this discussion to a pure Ork adversary, I've been tempted to try some Vanguard Veterans.

 

What I've come up with includes a 7-man Vanguard squad (equipped barebones/"cheap") led by Chaplain Cassius inside of a Land Raider Crusader. It is my understanding that Orks have difficulty dealing with heavy armor, and passing up on the chance to deliver 32 attacks on the charge with the ability to reroll failed hits is staggering. I feel what the squad may lack in technical hitting power is compensated for by the sheer number of attacks they can deal out.

 

These boys can bring the hurt, so why don't we see more people using them in a cheaper capacity/anti-infantry role? I recognize that they can become expensive quickly, but what better alternatives are there for a similar points cost against the Orks? I've also wondered if equipping them with jump packs (and being led by a jump pack Chaplain) might be a better use of points allocation.

 

 

All thoughts are appreciated, and thanks for looking! :P

[DarkAngelDelight]

personally, i think the vanguard models look great and they look ok on paper, it's just they can be quite costly. they can only do a heroic intervention with jump packs as far as i am aware, but starting off with 2 attacks is great considering its +1 for two cc weaps then + 1 on the charge so thats like 20 on the charge with 5 which is pretty good. i think for much cheaper though a unit of assault marines is more cost effective with a chaplain. but if you want to use cassius then i guess you'll have to footslog them.

 

all in all though i'd rather 10 assault marines with a chap (all jump packs) and 2 flamers against orks. you have 29 re rolled attacks (not including the chaplain) and then you have 2 templates that negate thier armour save (unless they are 'ard boys with a 4+ save) so you can cook a few before you tuck in with the chaplain and crew

 

thats my 2 pence

[Ran]

It's true that VV are C:SM most potent assault unit but imho terribly overpriced, especially when not abusing the heck out of their HI special rule - and I reckon you'd really need some suicide Scouts for that purpose, making them cost even more. As it stands, I wouldn't bother engaging the Orks in cc at all; last game I played against them I proxied a unit of 10 Termies w/ 2 CMLs, and those did awesome, pretty much obliterating an entire Trukk mob per shooting phase.

[DarkGuard]

No, VV aren't C:SM's most potent assault unit, that honour belongs to the Assault Terminators, who can dish out a lot of damage and take a lot of damage and aren't over costed.

 

Now the main issue is that VV are just so costly, especially with jump packs. The further issue with SRT's proposed idea, is that normal Assault Marines do the same job for less points, and they can pack a couple of flamers as well as a free Rhino if you take their jump packs off. The advantage of VV is the amount of power weapon attacks they can bring compared to Assault Marines, if you're eschewing that advantage you might as well take the cheaper unit. Consider that those extra points spent can get you another Assault squad, or more Tactical Marines and flamers, and you'll see that the Assault Marines are the better option.

 

However, if you really want a unit that can destroy Orks with little effort and have a bucket load of attacks look at the Honour Guard. Priced the same as a VV with power weapon, but also including a boltgun and artificer armour, the Chapter Banner gives them a lot of attacks, while their 2+ saves means they can take a lot of hits from Ork Boy units etc. So they cut down a lot of numbers with little to no casualties themselves, and the Fearless wounds hit in. That's a unit worth looking at for anti-horde, not for their power weapons but for their large amount of attacks and fantastic save, the power weapons just means that they retain utility against Marine armies etc.

[SRT]

Thank you all for the helpful feedback. It seems that there's just better choices out there. My main goal is developing a dedicated assault unit that can deal out some massive pain to the larger 30 man mobs, while still being a seamless part of the force I have in mind. And I think I've found just the unit - Honor Guard. :lol:

[Lysere]

Honor Guard will probably serve you better in the long run then VV because they can be used so well, if VV came with power weapons or at least had them cheaper then they could be used like you want and still be a cohesive part of your army. ATM they can be quite fun to use with and without jump packs, but you have to a have a good way to use them. Otherwise they just fold.

[Captain Idaho]

Thank you all for the helpful feedback. It seems that there's just better choices out there. My main goal is developing a dedicated assault unit that can deal out some massive pain to the larger 30 man mobs, while still being a seamless part of the force I have in mind. And I think I've found just the unit - Honor Guard. ;)

 

Welcome to the fold. :D

[meatball]

While having no intention to dissuade you from going with HG there are scenarios in which VV perform better. HG have a nasty reputation of killing outright enemy units which leaves you open in the enemy's shooting phase, while the VV may just leave a couple of enemy model to be killed in the enemy's assault phase thus giving you the option of subsequent charges. But for what it's worth, HG are generally more useful against a greater variety of enemies.

[DarkGuard]

SRT, come inside the club house. Have a cookie. Here's a drink. And here's your shirt. Did you get your cookie? :D

 

meatball, I'd say the VV squad's best strength over Honour Guard is being able to stock up on 3++ saves. The Honour Guard's main weakness is a lack of invulnerable saves, and VV squads can get the best one easy. Honour Guard are therefore tough against most stuff, but throw something that goes through armour and they die quickly, not so with a well constructed VV squad.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I know you're looking at assault units, but I just wanted to chime in that in my experience, the most powerful weapon in C:SM against orks is the Thunderfire Cannon. It's cheap, and I have literally wiped an entire mob off the table in a single round of shooting several times in the past. I think it'll pair well with your Honor Guard. Whatever you plan on using the Guard to assault is likely to have another ork unit nearby which means the Guard will get charged one way or another; beat on that other unit with the TFC to help keep the Guard alive to launch their own next charge.

[Ming]

My honored ork opponent (with 98 wins in 5th edition - looking for his 100th - Ripped Dragon) - would just love to see me pop out of a landraider, drop in from of his horde, and charge some unit like a horde of 30 boyz....just because he'll just redirect the kans or nobz to kill off my deathstar while his army tromps relentlessly forward to accomplish the mission.

 

The problem with the line of thinking above, is that an ork horde with kans, Ghaz, nobz can only be defeated if he clumps up. Those %$*&^ GaleForce9 movement tools will see that he is in perfect 2-inch spacing to minimize damage from any blast template. So...having a single deathstar that can kill the lion share of 30 boyz only works if you have 2 or three of these units...because you damage to him has to hit along all fronts.

 

For me the answer is not lightning claw assault terminators....because they cannot damage Kans at all, which will hit me the next movement phase.

 

For me the answer is not whirlwinds or thunderfires...because his overwatching lootas see to that.

 

The conundrum of defeating well-generaled orks means you literally have to build a list meant to just kill them. Your units must be large, and more choppy overall than shooty. You have to have units that by-and large put 25 wounds or more on each ork unit you charge...You want the bare minimum of troops, held back just for objectives. Something like this might be survivable against the orks that do not use meks and KFFs or battlewagons with deffrollas:

 

Cassius

Another chaplain, preferably in terminator armor

10 Assault terms, half and half - kills boyz and second wave Kans or nobz

10 Assault terms, half and half - kills boyz and second wave Kans or nobz

Drop pod venerable or ironclad w/ heavy flamer(s) to take care of those pesky lootas, MM for the inevitable truck or battlewagon or Kan

Combat squad tacticals, Rhino, combiflamer or combimelta - sits back and waits till turn 3 or 4 before moving off on a mission

Combat squad tacticals, Rhino, combiflamer or combimelta - sits back and waits till turn 3 or 4 before moving off on a mission

10 Assault Marines, flamers - just for killing boyz

10 Assault Marines, flamers - just for killing boyz

Squadron, Landspeeder typhoons - to kill trukks or Kans or wartrakks or bikers or bigger stuff

Demi-dev squad, 4 HBs - just to shoot at and weaken mobz at range

Demi-dev squad, 4 MLs - just to shoot at the big stuff at range

Thunderfire(s) - cheaper than the demi-dev squads, if you had three I'd use all three...and cut out the devs completely...

 

About 2500 points or so...

 

Frankly, you may also want to go first to determine how best to use the terrain to your advantage AND get the damage on early and often. On the other hand, going second means you may be able to go after his weaker flank and force the larger part of his mobz to walk the long distance to your lines, or go after the stronger flank or center and reinact a battle from ancient Rome....

[ShinyRhino]

Honour Guard are indeed the most effective Ork Horde killers in the Space Marine Codex. Lightning Claw Terminators are close, but lack pre-charge softening abilities.

 

Your basic Honour Guardsman has two base attacks, a pistol/powerweapon, and will gain one attack for charging. That's 4, which equals Claw Terminators. The kicker is the Chapter Banner, adding another attack in every Assault phase. Claws will run 4 on the charge, 3 in every phase afterward. HG get five on the charge, and four every phase afterward.

HG also have shooting attacks in the form of bolt pistols and possibly Auxiliary Grenade Launchers (though the price is steep for limited return). That will soften the Mob by a few models, and every Shoota Boy dropped using pistols/launchers reduces your incoming attacks at I2 by 3. Honour Guards' biggest weakness is volume of attacks due to their single wound.

Once you charge, the Orks evaporate. This is 25% truer when accompanied by a Chaplain.

 

Now, it is very difficult to wipe a 30-strong Mob in one Assault Phase. What is important is what happens after the assault is complete...Pile In moves. A 5-7 strong Honour Guard (plus or minus attached ICs) willkill enough Orks to win combat and cause some Fearless wounds, but NOT wipe the Mob. Because the HG are on 25mm bases, there should be enough Orks left to "wrap up" the HG unit. This isn't optional! The Orks MUST use the FULL 6" Pile In move to base as many HG models as possible! When the HG are wrapped up in 25mm base size Orks, they cannot be countercharged by kans on their 60mm bases. It's just not physically possible. You then kill off the remaining Orks in their Assault phase, consolidate, and have either dealt with the Kans in shooting, or can move away or repeat the process on another Boyz Mob.

[Ming]

Don't forget Lightning claw termies reroll failed wounds...add a chaplain for rerolling failed hits and you have a potent combi-nation!

 

Regardless, all you need are bad armor saves and either unit falls to weight of fire...

[Lysere]

That's why I wish command squads could be made to be ten man. yeah they only have 3+ armor but they have FNP, plus they can take more in the way of shooting if you want. Add to that the ability to take storm shields and you've got a much tougher unit then the HG.

[ShinyRhino]

Honour Guard with a banner actually stack up close or better than 5 LC Terminators.

 

The TDA get 20 attacks total on the charge (2 base, 1 for dual claw, 1 for charging). Against WS4/T4 opponents, they'll land 10 hits, cause 7.5 wounds.

The HG get 26 attacks total (2 base, 1 for pistol/power weapon, 1 for charging, 1 for banner, Champ has +1A and +1WS). 14 hits. 7 wounds.

Of course, the HG fired 5 pistol shots pre-charge and killed one or two additional models.

 

With a Chaplain, the TDA do 11 wounds (not o:cussing Chaplain attacks, since he's identical in both scenarios EXCEPT in shooting).

With a Chaplain, the HG do 9.5 wounds, but cause 2 wounds from pistol shots pre-charge.

 

The end decision is based on personal preference, as they both stack up in a similar manner in damage output. It depends if you want the ability to take relic blades, have pre-charge shooting, and the ability to Sweeping Advance or if you want a 5++ save to back up the 2+ armor. Also, when considering Ork Mobs, the 25mm bases on the HG are a significant advantage to keeping retaliatory charges off you.

 

 

That's in a direct unit-to-unit comparison, of course. The requirement of taking a Chapter Master or SC to unlock the HG is not quantifiable in a vacuum, and the math differs when you start adding additional Terminators to exceed 200 points, allowing the purchase of additional HG models and upgrades.

[Captain Idaho]

A major asset of the Honour Guard is when the casualities start coming, the benefits of the Chapter Banner, the Chapter Champion and the characters attached combine keep a higher damage output with a weaker squad. As an example; a single Lightning Claw Terminator with attached character is worth less than a Champion with Relic blade and attached character.

 

The second major asset is transport options being cheaper, saving points.

 

(not o:cussing Chaplain attacks, since he's identical in both scenarios EXCEPT in shooting).

 

Um actually no, the Chaplain gets an additional attack with the Honour Guard so is actually better with them ;)

 

Now, it is very difficult to wipe a 30-strong Mob in one Assault Phase. What is important is what happens after the assault is complete...Pile In moves. A 5-7 strong Honour Guard (plus or minus attached ICs) willkill enough Orks to win combat and cause some Fearless wounds, but NOT wipe the Mob. Because the HG are on 25mm bases, there should be enough Orks left to "wrap up" the HG unit. This isn't optional! The Orks MUST use the FULL 6" Pile In move to base as many HG models as possible! When the HG are wrapped up in 25mm base size Orks, they cannot be countercharged by kans on their 60mm bases. It's just not physically possible. You then kill off the remaining Orks in their Assault phase, consolidate, and have either dealt with the Kans in shooting, or can move away or repeat the process on another Boyz Mob.

 

Yep mate I agree. It's why Necron Wraiths are so useful because they do big damage in their turn but not enough to wipe out their targets so they can't be shot in the following turns. The larger mobz of Orks are their own worst enemies since they get charged, beaten but stuck in a combat they will lose.

[ShinyRhino]

(not o:cussing Chaplain attacks, since he's identical in both scenarios EXCEPT in shooting).

 

Um actually no, the Chaplain gets an additional attack with the Honour Guard so is actually better with them <_<

 

 

Good point! I forgot all about that!