"Children in the bodies of gods."

[Dammeron]

There is an observation made by one of the human characters in ADB's latest Night Lords work, Void Stalker, which I believe perfectly encapsulates and expresses the psychology of the Space Marine: "children in the bodies of gods." The character makes this observation after realising how stunted and inadequate her Night Lord captors are in so many incidental areas of human experience. Whereas they are incomparable geniuses in those arenas they are conditioned to operate in, when it comes to basic empathy, aesthetics, philosophy; identification and interaction with other beings, the Space Marines as a whole -whether loyalist or traitor- operate on a level that might be redolent of conditions such as autism in every day human beings. There are, of course, exceptions to this: legions such as The Word Bearers, the Ultramarines, the Emperor's Children and others express varying degrees of comprehension in this regard, but always, it seems, in extreme and obsessive ways, that ultimately serve to disassociate them even further from the humanity they were born to. Though the Thousand Sons jave a keen grasp of symbolism, metaphor; philosophy, existentialism, poetry, metaphysics and so on and so forth, their pursuit of such is tainted by the war-mongering xenophobia and tribal power-plays they are conditioned to fulfil. As such, a pursuit of knowledge and lore becomes a pursuit of power and domination; they are means to an end, rather than an end in and of themselves. Similarly, the Emperor's Children recognise the necessity of culture and abstraction; of sustaining what they fight and die to protect, yet utilise that recognition to elevate themselves egotistically beyond their brothers and "the common herd" of humanity.

 

In many respects, Space Marines are pitiful failures of human endeavour; designed, chopped and tailored to represent certain preconceptions of humanity's strengths, they instead reflect a mono-maniacal tribalism and ideological extremism that evinces all that is base and animalistic in our species. In that regard, they are reflections of the Emperor's own utter failure as a figurehead and icon of humanity. Himself conceived to be a shining paragon of human strength, he is instead a xenophobic warlord who, for some unfathomable reason, despite his apparent intellect and imagination, cannot conceive of better ways of ordering the universe and uniting humanity without devastating vast swathes of it. Imagine if, instead of designing the Space Marines exclusively as warriors and conquerers, he'd designed them as diplomats and communicators: super human intelligences with the ability to empathise and understand the cultures they came across throughout the galaxy. Would there still be war and conflict? Certainly; such is inevitable when two disparate cultures come into contact. But if the Space Marines were as consummate in those areas as they are in the waging of war and the pathological hatred they have been conditioned to evince as correct and sacred, then perhaps the Great Crusade might have drawn allies and support from other quarters, rather than being the genocidal campaign and monumental failure it turned out to be.

[BogdanTheBlessed]

I haven't read the latest ADB novel, but I love your points. The grasp of the things you mentioned at least in the Emperor's Children even now under Slaanesh's guidance as a deity of art, aside from excess still remains. It is interesting to see a Chaos Legion that may have a sense of other things than warfare.

[Amalricus]

Well they are the best for what the're supposed to do, each Legion ( including successor chapters, warbands and other marine offcasts) making the best and the worst of their primarch's qualities and flaws. Their specific training, genetic mutation and daily brainwash makes sure they do their job quickly and efficiently. Besides, they don't really have to care for trivial stuff as livestock, ressources, and such, since they are enough slaves / servitors / humans to take care of that sort of details.

 

Their super-human strength, resilience and skill at warfare doesn't leave any place for anything else, they are bred for war, and thuss they fight, not as much for a goal or purpose, but simply because they can't do anything else ( why would they care about 10.000 years old feuds if they were able to do other stuff). That, and the fact some have lived around 10 000 years, when you live that long, i think empathy towards "mere mortals" is a burden.

[Kol Saresk]

I'd like to point out that Void Stalker is not either the first Night Lords novel nor the first novel period to point this out. Lord of the Night also showed this view, but it was from a psyker while she was inside Zso Sahaal's mind. But yes, I agree with you on everything. Although I find it ironic that Horus was the only Primarch who we actually see, rather than speculate on, try to break from the xenophobia by trying to make peace with the Interex, until Erebus screwed it up.

[AekoldHelbrass]

But that's basically what makes most of characters interesting. Just take a look around, our grandmas like snively TV shows about some girl who is always crying, our classmate fantasy-fans liked paladins, and we like space marines. All of them are "incomplete personality", if we're talking from our real life experience. All Space Marines are doing is making war, training and praying to their Emperor/Gods, they have no hobbies, no relationship, quite a few interests, they've never lived in our sense. Just remember all really interesting characters from all books you've read and films you've seen, and 9 of 10 the pattern will repeat.

 

But!

 

It is up to the author to describe this primitivism as determination towards single big goal. And we, petty mortals, like this determination, we admire it because we do not have it ourselves. Like those old quotes from wikiquote, now banned by GW IP department, "something worth doing - worth dying", it sounds determined, impressive, and we like that kind of attitude, but we will never follow it ourselves. We love different legions/chapters because of their determination towards one single goal that is similar to our own views, and we hate others because of their goals. And it's not like they are stupid or mentally retarded, they just follow their single goal, they are getting better in killing and waging war in general, just like some mad genius inside Intel laboratories can know everything about microchips but knows nothing about culture, architecture, has no social skills, no hobbies, and basically less human.

 

Personally I hate ADB's series about Night Lords, he made them too human, from old fluff and LotN I imagined them as horrors and abominations and he made them just mafioso. But his "One Hate" short story is one of the best things I've ever read in my life, and "Aurelian" is absolutely awesome thing to read, I almost liked Word Bearers, both making the same point of showing "incomplete personality" as determination.

[Caffeineated Chaos]

Imagine if, instead of designing the Space Marines exclusively as warriors and conquerers, he'd designed them as diplomats and communicators: super human intelligences with the ability to empathise and understand the cultures they came across throughout the galaxy. Would there still be war and conflict? Certainly; such is inevitable when two disparate cultures come into contact. But if the Space Marines were as consummate in those areas as they are in the waging of war and the pathological hatred they have been conditioned to evince as correct and sacred, then perhaps the Great Crusade might have drawn allies and support from other quarters, rather than being the genocidal campaign and monumental failure it turned out to be.

You mean to say what if the Space Marines were Reasonable?

 

Also I'd like to point out one of the more psychologically well rounded chapters, the Salamanders. They're a practical chapter, not obsessed with glory nearly as much as some of the other loyalist chapter *cough*ultramarines!*cough* They work hard to not be distant from humanity, willing to lay down their lives to protect even a lone guardsman. THey have their own Imperium-accepted cult that varies vastly from the ecclesiasty, a philosophy that focuses on self-reflection, you actually find many salamanders discussing philosophy casually in Nick Kyme's Tome of Fire series. They regularly go and interact with the people of their homeworld. And while it is usually linked to warfare they do have hobbies, every Salamander is a smith, which they use as an outlet for their creative energy as well as a way to better gird themselves for war. And Ba'Ken from the tome of fire series, while normally one of the most practical, philosophical, and humble Salamanders, likes to blow off steam in the Nocturne Gladiator arenas and show off. Which, while war-focused, shows an unusual dualism in his character for a space marine. Just something to point out, since it does at least show the potential for space marines to become more philosophically and emotionally complex.

 

 

But that's basically what makes most of characters interesting. Just take a look around, our grandmas like snively TV shows about some girl who is always crying, our classmate fantasy-fans liked paladins, and we like space marines. All of them are "incomplete personality", if we're talking from our real life experience. All Space Marines are doing is making war, training and praying to their Emperor/Gods, they have no hobbies, no relationship, quite a few interests, they've never lived in our sense. Just remember all really interesting characters from all books you've read and films you've seen, and 9 of 10 the pattern will repeat.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with this. True such characters are interesting and, whether hero or villain they're usually the driving force of a story. But I wouldn't consider those characters the most interesting or my favorites. My favorite characters in stories tend to be side characters, for any number of reasons, but one of the big ones is that they are usually more human and better rounded, mind that's not always apparent at first, since the author doesn't necessarily put as much focus on them you tend to see them in a limited capacity and many of them are simplified in their tastes or interests, but so are most people, and even people with lots of interests still tend to have only a few main ones, or focus on a few at a time and just cycle through them, but if you put more focus on the side characters you usually find a more realistic person than the main character.

[evolved23]

Very insightful.

 

But I think we also have to consider the species that had been in contact with the legions. The enemies encountered are not really the sort that you can treat with. I can understand the perspective of arrogance when you consider every other race that you encounter is automatically out to kill you. But then if you look at the primarchs which had the least philosophical legions and least deticated to numerous skills were the ones who had a dedicated role.

Angron and his ilk I cannot see planning for a future without war and in a way I believe what Sigismund stated in Horus rising is possibly the best quote to sum up humanity in that the Great Crusade would never end.

Humanity strives to dominate regardless its why we were are and forever will be a fractious race and only through a dominate could be controlled.

[King Willy]

You said it yourself when you say they reflect the primarch.

 

Vulkan was a smith, but not like ferrus who only made weapons and gloried in his craft or fulgrim who just made stuff to show he's better, Vulkan was made to be a smith, he was raised as a smith, his skill was taught to him and his primarch-iness made him godly in that skill. As a result he was humble compared to the others who were widely known on there planets as leaders of some sort.

 

This reflects in Vulkans Salamanders, who will emulate there patriarch by also being humble, understanding that at one point they were humans.

Ultras are taught of how Guillimen rose to become the leader of an entire planet that he turned into a utopian paradise.

Iron Hands a taught to focus on the self, improving there bodies and testing themselves as he did when he defeated the silver wyrm.

Corax was raised to be a leader from the moment they found him, the Raven Guard as such a more social with the inhabitants but they would still see an unpaid debt to Corax for saving and changing them.

 

The general pattern of the Primarchs early lives follows the latter three, found, raised to be the leader of some social caste or raised by the leading body and then being discovered shortly after.

 

It is not surprising to think that a group of young men, told they are to become the finest weapons the imperium have and note that they are called weapons not soliders then taught everyday to reflect on the past glories and stories of the Primarchs, would become seperate from humans, both raised above them by there physical bodies and yet broken apart in mind by the mental conditioning of chapter life.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, just take a look at Grimaldus in Helsreach. The character is, to a greater or lesser extent, practically autistic. He's amazing at fighting, can lead the men under him, and generally be capable at most aspects of battle, but when it comes to interacting with "mortals" in topics not directly related to warfare, he has absolutely no idea what the hell he's doing.

[Kol Saresk]

You said it yourself when you say they reflect the primarch.

 

Vulkan was a smith, but not like ferrus who only made weapons and gloried in his craft or fulgrim who just made stuff to show he's better, Vulkan was made to be a smith, he was raised as a smith, his skill was taught to him and his primarch-iness made him godly in that skill. As a result he was humble compared to the others who were widely known on there planets as leaders of some sort.

 

This reflects in Vulkans Salamanders, who will emulate there patriarch by also being humble, understanding that at one point they were humans.

Ultras are taught of how Guillimen rose to become the leader of an entire planet that he turned into a utopian paradise.

Iron Hands a taught to focus on the self, improving there bodies and testing themselves as he did when he defeated the silver wyrm.

Corax was raised to be a leader from the moment they found him, the Raven Guard as such a more social with the inhabitants but they would still see an unpaid debt to Corax for saving and changing them.

 

The general pattern of the Primarchs early lives follows the latter three, found, raised to be the leader of some social caste or raised by the leading body and then being discovered shortly after.

 

It is not surprising to think that a group of young men, told they are to become the finest weapons the imperium have and note that they are called weapons not soliders then taught everyday to reflect on the past glories and stories of the Primarchs, would become seperate from humans, both raised above them by there physical bodies and yet broken apart in mind by the mental conditioning of chapter life.

Until you reach Night Haunter and the Lion who had no true human upbringings. Although in the case of the Lion, he had someone who helped him to acclimate to human society where the Haunter had no one.

[King Willy]

But it still adheres to the point I was making.

 

A lack of human presence in the Primarchs upbringing makes them even more removed.

 

The Lion was almost immediately inducted into the Order when they found him, his first contact with humans was to meet a group that very much resembles the modern astartes life of the warrior-monk archetype.

 

Konrad was exposed to the worst kinds of humans and as a result taught his Legion that Fear was the most powerful weapon.

 

Both legions would have almost no humanity in my mind, DA being so secretive because of the monastic form of the Order and the isolationism it created by chosing only the strongest childern and seperating them from there family, aside from the whole business with the fallen.

 

The Night Lords is obvious in their tactics, scare the populace in to submission and kill the ring leaders, which is what Night Haunter did. This would impress upon the Astartes of the legion that they were greater then the humans who would cower and surrender as soon as the leader was killed.

[Lord_Caerolion]

the isolationism it created by chosing only the strongest childern and seperating them from there family

 

And in that way, they differ from literally every other Chapter in existance... how, exactly? Every single Chapter takes only the strongest children, and trains them in a seperate location to where their family lives. Chapters who allow Marines to continue having contact with their home families are incredibly, incredibly rare, pretty much being only the Salamanders.

[Yogi]

Space marines aren't autistic. They understand the people in their environment. The squadie knows when his sargeant's is pissed off. They live in a narrow world and so their experience and understanding is narrow, thats not so bad.

 

Because they are human weapons.

 

The emperor is the only failure here. You don't let weapons wield themselves. But he's also a genocidal, tyrannical madman. Hardly surprising his soldiers are.

 

But you can argue with exposure to human society marines understand regular humans feel more connected to humanity as a whole eg salamanders. And more useful on the whole. Its mostly environment.

[Xin Ceithan]

There is something VERY important and fundamental to Astartes in this Post:

Astartes are no longer human. They are taken at an early age (and from the most dangerous societies) and turned into something else. They may remember some things but they are Never allowed Age and experience as a normal adult. All those biological changes and the resulting psychological changes make them in a way as Alien as the Eldar. They resemble humans and may have vague memories of human existence but are essentially a different breed. And they are Not just "Super humans" ( as in humans with extraordinary abillities - as world be Paladins btw) - they are Transhuman. No longer human but from a human starting point.

The better writers (including ADB and Abnett ) bring that across in multipel ways.

As for the Primarchs - they weren' t human to beginn with. They re truly posthuman. The further apart from humanity they were forced to develop, the stranger they became in their own way...Or the closer to their unchecked genetic template?

 

 

Edited due my NOT-SO-SMART-PHONE

[King Willy]

The DA differ in that The Lion is the only Primarch to have such small contact with normal human society, or at least Calibans equivelent, thus such an extreme case of secrecy, keeping knowledge of the chapters past a secret, is such a powerful and important part of the DAs character. Besides I was talking about the Order on Caliban not the modern DA equivilent.

 

 

And about the Autism part, no they don't understand the people around them.

Put yourself in there shoes, They were taken from there families, some forceibly others willingly, just as puberty starts.

Then they are forced to undertake trials that could kill them quite easily and will probably see others die as well as be exposed to death and murder.

Forced to live a cloistered life were the only other people a complete strangers and a hundred year old giant with a skull for a helmet.

 

After this they have there bodies changed and there mind altered by hypnosis.

 

They then fight 10 to 20 of the bloodiest battles possible, so bloody other humans don't stand a chance and may go insane from seeing.

 

They then get to do these battles for the next 100 or so years.

How much time between these do you think he has to understand Imperial civilians, the only humans he is likely to see a serfs, who probably don't talk often in most chapters, Techpriests, who are barely human, guardsmen, who are either shooting at them or shooting with them.

 

They would not understand any of the social conventions of the imperium, even their homeworld would be a total mystery to them in terms of social norms and habits.

 

An Autistic person doesn't not understand, he just acts differently to the situation, which is not good in the human sense, but invaluable in a superhuman weapon.

[Xin Ceithan]

From a purely medical point Astartes aren´t autistic. Autism is (as much as we understand it now) a failure of the human brain to interpret data in the "normal" human way. As I stated above the Astartes condition is so deviant from baseline humanity that such a concept is not apliable. Might work as a "as in autism" stand in.

Baseline humans are especially in their emotional responses ( which are mostly related in the lower-animal- brain parts ) driven by primal urges and evaluations. Evolving in a dangerous environment without speech ( except for grunts) made us rely on quick input in judging others emotional responses to certain stimuli (danger = fear, anger= conflict). Much of this behaviour and the interpretation of this behaviour is genetically encoded.

An autistic person knows fear in his own way. He might not recognize it in others correctly and act differently than a "base" human. It`s still fear. The very essence of all that genengineering done to those who become Astartes turns them away from humanity. It´s even called "psychosurgery". How do relate to fearful person and their reactions when you do no longer feel fear? Consider how much human behaviour is based on fear. Imagine evaluating everything around you as potential threat or target instead. Imaging not needing food, water and even sleep in the way you do now. Imagine how DIFFRERENT your mindset would be. And how strange those "other people" must seem. Among -most- humans you can relate your very basic needs by gestures ( Afraid, hungry, happy). I´d doubt that an average Astartes could find the meanings. Their needs and emotions are so much different. The cultural differences between the isolated, monastic lifestyles of the Astartes only furthers the gap.

And consider how much of human behaviour is based on the need to procreate? It`s failry safe to assume the Emperor bred that out them. (And I `d say it`s fairly certain that Astartes are sterile anyway). Astartes never undergo puberty. They literaly grow apart from humanity. No wonder they are Children in the bodies of men.

 

Maybe that`s what caused the Emperor to replace the Thunderwarriors? To close to humans with all their emotions and ambitions?

[Dammeron]

I'd point out that the original obnservation wasn't that Space Marines are "autistic," but rather that they generally demonstrate certain incapacities and characteristics that are redolent of autism, and of a number of other conditions that would be considered disabilities or incapacities in "non-enhanced" human beings. These characteristics are fairly evident not only in Black Library fiction, but in the generally narrow and obsessive ways Space Marines necessaeily function as a result of their genetic manipulations and psychological conditioning. They have capacities in certain specific areas in which they are geniuses; those of various forms of warfare, weapons maintennance, intimidation etc etc, but in broader terms, they are severely lacking, especially in comparisson to human characters who demonstrate a wider spectrum of capability, whilst obviously not excelling so completely in some as Space Marines necessarily do.

 

Also, I'm not arguing that this isn't a necessary part of the fiction; on the meta level, this narrowness of scope and specificity; the extremes that Space Marines both loyal and traitor occupy and express, are what makes them interesting, and also in more recent years allows them to become vehicles for analysis of certain very real and pertinent human issues. However, even within the scope of the fictional universe, their evident incapacities are evident and can be compared to not only those of human beings, but a wide variety of other species as well. This is what's so fantastic about the 40K universe; for all its pulpy, grim-dark comic book ethos, it is also an excellent vehicle for philosophical notions. The Space Marines are, ostensibly, the greatest heroes and villains of the piece, yet where that line is drawn is often extremely murky. To me, the Space Marines are universally the ultimate horror: a supreme military force with unquestioning obedience to authority, from whom all basic empathy and even rationality has been bled in order to sustain the status quo of certain power structures. In humanitarian terms, they are horrific: human beings entirely stripped of their humanity to be made unfeeling engines of war, to whom violence and murder are the natural -and largely inevitable- solutions to all problems. The tribal hostilities they are conditioned to regard as holy even manifest between one another, and towards the rest of humanity. They are, collectively, a grand mistake on behalf of the Emperor.

 

Perhaps it would be better to ask the question another way: assume that the Great Crusade was a resounding success: humanity's lost tribes were drawn into the Imperium, alien civilisation was forced back beyond the borders of the known universe or eradicated entirely; the Imperium entered into a new "golden age," in which focus could be placed on making human civilisation richer, more prosperous and pleasant. What happens to the Space Marines then? I can only think of a handful of primarchs and their legions who would have any kind of place in that situation: Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children, Magnus and the Thousand Sons, Sanguinius and the Blood Angels, Guilliman and the Ultramarines...a great many of the others would become more or less useless, and quite possibly a threat to the new order's stability. How would Angron, Night Haunter, Perturabo, Rogal Dorn, Jaghati Kahn and Leman Russ handle peace time? the best they could possiby hope for is to become some kind of intergalactic police force, perhaps stationed on the outer-edges of the Imperium to protect against exterbal invasion. Angron, Night Haunter and Leman Russ in particular would almost certainly have to be put down, their respective legions either divided or eradicated entirely. For an entity of such apparent intellect and boundless capacity, the Emperor certainly didn't think things through when he designed the psychology of the Primarchs and the Space Marines. If they all had a similar regard for more cultural pursuits as Magnus and Fulgrim, maybe they would have had a place come the Imperium's realisation, but as it stands, some form of internecene conflict was largely inevitable: if it wasn't Horus, it would've almost certainly been Leman Russ or Angron, chafing at having been used to carve out an empire they no longer have any place or purpose in, and to which their natural proclivities -barbarism, bellicosity, unthinking violence- would almost certainly prove corrosive.

[Xin Ceithan]

Totally in agreement here.

In many ways, that makes the Astartes such tragic figures. They are made into something more than human but give up their own humanity and their Connection to it in return.

It's also interesting to see how flawed the Emperor's designs are. Considering the thunderwarrior's fate makes you wonder what he planed to do with legions of genetically changed killers after the crusade.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, at least in the case of Night Haunted, I can see them taking a role similar to that of the current Inquisition. After all, the Night Lords took on a policing role even during the Great Crusade. Out of all the Primarchs, Curze seemed to regard internal threats as the most dangerous, allowing his brothers to focus on the external.

Dorn and, to a lesser extent, had he not turned, Perturabo, I can see as adapting to peacetime relatively well, with them focussing more on their specialties as masons and planners.

[Dammeron]

Well, at least in the case of Night Haunted, I can see them taking a role similar to that of the current Inquisition. After all, the Night Lords took on a policing role even during the Great Crusade. Out of all the Primarchs, Curze seemed to regard internal threats as the most dangerous, allowing his brothers to focus on the external.

Dorn and, to a lesser extent, had he not turned, Perturabo, I can see as adapting to peacetime relatively well, with them focussing more on their specialties as masons and planners.

 

 

This seems to lead into another interesting subject: that of alternative realities. Assuming that Night Haunter did not find himself growing up on a world as damaged as Nostramo, what could he have been? Certainly, he would have had certain genetic predilictions that determine dhis character (the prophecies, dourness; his eventual degeneration into something monstrous all seem to be innate), but could he and his legion have learned to harness and control these characteristics given a different environment and influences? What, for example, would have become of Night Haunter if he'd landed on Chemos, Prospero or one of the umpteen other worlds in the 40K universe? How much of the Primarch's character deficiencies are nature, and how much nurture? The Night Lords in particular are quite interesting, in that their legion was poisoned from within long, long, long before any more abstruse notion of heresy amongst the legions became apparent. The constant influx of gang leaders, brutes, rapists and murderers from Nostramo turned the legion into something utterly monstrous. Would that factor have been countermanded or avoided altogether if its warriors came from purer stock?

 

Similarly, the Word Bearers: What if Lorgar landed on Prospero in place of Magnus? Would his natural penchant for metaphysics and seeking after meaning have found healthier expression amongst that planet's scholars, or would his inclinations towards dogmatism have transformed that culture into something more conservative?

[Kol Saresk]

Here's another one. What if someone actually raised him on Nostramo instead of him fending for himself and bringing justice to society through an innate sense of morality that would later become twisted through his paranoia? Or what if the Administratum had simply kept up his justice system instead of letting Nostramo slide back into what it was before?

[chaplain belisarius]

hmmm...interesting thread! always wonder how much of the primarchs character was innate (nature) and what was a result of their environment (nurture). Would dorn of been different if he grew up on nostramo, for example?

[Ring-around-the-roses]

I imagine each Primarch would be of have been shaped by their homeworld to a massiver extent.

 

Dorn on Nostramo. I imagine a fascist, brutal regime arrising, with Dorn's concept of honour changing to more closely resemble the way the Emperor looked in the Unification Wars. Brutal, efficient and, to his mind, totally justified. Not evil, just clealy conscious of the need for control.

 

Magnus on Colchis would be very interesting. If you factor out Kor Phaeron, it is quite possible that a enviroment like that would teach Magnus to control his 'explorations' in the Warp much more, although the inevitable rebellion against the regime of Colchis could also effect his future respect of the Emperor.

 

Interesting thoughts this breeds indeed.

[chaplain belisarius]

it does, doesnt it? if horus was on ultramar..would he of not fallen perhaps?

[Xin Ceithan]

Actually I find it equally interesting how the primarchs would have developed had they not been shattered across the galaxy....

There are some hints about this ( in "A thousand suns" regarding Magnus for example ).

And while enviroment shapes us ( humans) it`s still hard to go aganinst our more instinctive traits and behaviour.

Again, do remember that Astartes may be changed from humans. Primarchs are not. They were created and from the little we know of the Emperor it`s safe to assume he designed them for specific tasks. And I dare say designed to achieve that from a basic genetic level. Can a sword become a plough?

Quite like the idea of Kurze being the head of some inquisition styled post-crusade group. The need to punish , to weed out the wicked..that seems fundamental to his being. And the older fluff says that the Emperor called him by his name first ( "You are Konrad Kurze and you are my son" ). iIt`d be interesting if he had names for all the primarchs and just choose to go with their "adopted" names especially in the cases where they had buikt up an identity 7 name already. even Angron and the lion eventually ended up among humans. As far as I recall, Kurze is the only one who grew up close to humans but not among them. he still chose the moniker those around him gave him to the name his father offered though ( No father. I am the Night Haunter")