Bolters for Death Company

[Spear of Achilles]

Looking at the averages, it seems boltguns might be better than bolt pistol + various hand weapons due to DC's relentless. Anyone played a few games using bolters on their Death Company?

[knife&fork]

Looking at the averages, it seems boltguns might be better than bolt pistol + various hand weapons due to DC's relentless. Anyone played a few games using bolters on their Death Company?

 

I've used podded DC with bolters a couple of times. 10*bolters, 1 pf and 2 infernus pistols to be exact. This is a fire and forget unit, not a hammer. Drop them where they can do the most damage and know that they don't go away until the last man is down. Very few opponents can afford to just ignore this kind of threat and as long as you don't put them in front of the enemies big guns they take a lot to kill.

 

As for the bolters themselves they help giving your DC more bite when they disembark and then on foot where they move quite slowly. In one occasion it was game winning as I was able to get a couple of wounds off a scoring unit halfway across the board and have them fall off the objective they were holding. My opponent was trying to bait me with another unit (a typhoon speeder I think) but even with rage I'm still free to fire at whatever I like.

[Morollan]

Personally I only ever give bolters to DC with fists or hammers. I would rather have the extra S5 attack in assault (with rerolls to hit and wound) than an extra S4 shot on the way in. Some argue that the extra range is useful if you are being kited or are out of position but this is not something that happens too often and I'd rather concentrate on what the DC are good at - smashing faces.

[Mezkh]

I use and recommend them. The firepower is useful, and with a couple of powerfists you're dominating the assault phase regardless.

 

'Averages' aren't useful. It should be looked at as a cost/ benefit analysis - you're losing 6-8 non pw attacks generally (most of the time not much hinges on them), and gaining small arms fire in a useful quantity.

[Morollan]

I use and recommend them. The firepower is useful, and with a couple of powerfists you're dominating the assault phase regardless.

 

'Averages' aren't useful. It should be looked at as a cost/ benefit analysis - you're losing 6-8 non pw attacks generally (most of the time not much hinges on them), and gaining small arms fire in a useful quantity.

 

You lose an equal number of cc attacks in exchange for the extra shots but the extra attacks will cause nearly twice as many casualties (vs MEQ). Also, if your DC are more than 12" from your target then you've done something wrong in the first place and having a few S4 shots is not really going to make up for that.

[Zealadin]

To play devils advocate...

 

S4 shots on models with rage is pretty useful especially taking into account relentless. For the price of a few kitted DC you can add a chaplain which means rerolls to hit and wound on the charge, and combined with the already killy nature of the DC you aren't left wanting for attacks.

S4 on the other hand can glance the rear armour on transports like rhinos. Rather than being kited you at least have a small chance to do something useful.

 

Relentless means you always shoot at 24" or double tap at 12" and you can still assault afterwards.

 

Bolters also mean you can do some serious damage to certain units you may not particularly want to assault straight out. Like Banshees, Incubi (to a lesser extent), probably certain horde units, etc. Anything with Av5 is easy prey.

 

I mean you can argue if they aren't within 12" then your in serious trouble, but its important to remember your opponent plays a part in movement and positioning, sometimes you can't control all the variables or get caught out.

[Mezkh]

I use and recommend them. The firepower is useful, and with a couple of powerfists you're dominating the assault phase regardless.

 

'Averages' aren't useful. It should be looked at as a cost/ benefit analysis - you're losing 6-8 non pw attacks generally (most of the time not much hinges on them), and gaining small arms fire in a useful quantity.

 

You lose an equal number of cc attacks in exchange for the extra shots but the extra attacks will cause nearly twice as many casualties (vs MEQ). Also, if your DC are more than 12" from your target then you've done something wrong in the first place and having a few S4 shots is not really going to make up for that.

 

It's not a mathematical problem. Either loadout you get something dead to your DC in assault, or something dead to your DC in assault.

 

What bolters give you is tactical flexibility. Options. The thing that defines Space Marines as a faction.

 

As the above post implies, something to be aware of is dedicated units with an initiative stat value above 5. And it is often the case the are flimsy enough that Str 4 AP 5 shooting is a threat.

 

On the whole, the equivalent to 5 stormbolters isn't 'nothing' either.

[Morollan]

I can see that they do have their uses, but the situations in which that would happen are so few and far between that I feel diluting their cc ability, which I will get to use every game unless something goes really wrong, in exchange for having some bolters which I might benefit from maybe once every dozen or so games is just not a good option.

[spartan II]

if you could i dont have my dex at hand now

 

9dc

4xpw

5x bolter

chaplain

pod

 

this is how i run them exept for in the raven than they get lemartes and pistols but they get :) done i strongly advise not to take the IP simply cause everything you can shoot at you can assault and lets be honest this is so much more effective an hammer would be nice do

[Morticon]

Looking at the averages, it seems boltguns might be better than bolt pistol + various hand weapons due to DC's relentless. Anyone played a few games using bolters on their Death Company?

 

 

My standard on DC is now 8 DC, with 2fists or hammers with bolters and then 2 more bolters for wound allocation purposes.

 

I wouldnt play with all bolters on account of DC having FC and WS5 !

[knife&fork]

I wouldnt play with all bolters on account of DC having FC and WS5 !

 

Depends on what you face and what you field.

 

Against eldar, guard, nids, gk and maybe orks I'd rather take the bolters if we are talking about a mid sized (8-10 models) squad with a transport and no chaplain.

[Spear of Achilles]

Aye, there's something to be said for gunning down halberd knights, wyches, kabalites,and anything else that's power weaponed or higher than 5 Init.

[Axira]

I would run 30 DC (one squad),

All with Power Fists and bolters, and if you have the points to spare, I would add 6 infernus pistols!

Now that would come in at 1710p

Now you got a FNP, FC, Fearless, S9 on charge that ignores armor saves (even tou you do strike at I1), this unit sure is expensive but close to impossible to kill! Also add Lemartes for extra Awsomeness thanks to the rerolls!

Now that will make your opponent rethink their tacticts! <--note that this should ONLY be used for friendly games

[SnorriSnorrison]

Aye, there's something to be said for gunning down halberd knights, wyches, kabalites,and anything else that's power weaponed or higher than 5 Init.

 

 

Lemartes. 'nuff said. :D

 

 

Snorri

[Jolemai]

Was wondering when Snorri would contribute to this thread. Would never have guessed he wrote a guide on using Death Company or anything :D

 

To be fair though since reading that (and other posts on the subject) I have taken to including maybe one or two Bolters depending on how many Death Company I field as it seems the best fit for whom I play against (i.e I'd rather have an extra shot and possibly one less attack back in combat then the alternative).

[knife&fork]

Lemartes. 'nuff said. :)

 

DC is not a monobuild.

 

With Lemartes we are talking about a very different unit, but you could argue that including him makes the unit killy enough and you would be better served by taking the bolters for extra range. :)

[Morticon]

I wouldnt play with all bolters on account of DC having FC and WS5 !

 

Depends on what you face and what you field.

 

Against eldar, guard, nids, gk and maybe orks I'd rather take the bolters if we are talking about a mid sized (8-10 models) squad with a transport and no chaplain.

 

Any particular reason for that K&F?

 

On the charge DC hit at init 5, S5 and usually on 3s. Against guard (odd example since there aren't many food horde guard lists about) and grunt Nids and Eldar you're wounding on 2s - better odds considering that the average save here is 5+ and most armies wont be without cover from shooting with a 4+.

 

Better odds for wounds against orks (in or out of cover) and better against GK too than bolters.

 

Too many bolter shots against light horde armies also leave you at risk of shooting out your charge zone.

[DominicJ]

Bolter DC can destroy two units per turn...

 

20 bolters to the unit on the right, 30 CC attacks to the unit on the left.

Oh yeah.

 

I just wish they could take bigger stuff than bolters

[Morticon]

Bolter DC can destroy two units per turn...

 

20 bolters to the unit on the right, 30 CC attacks to the unit on the left.

Oh yeah.

 

I just wish they could take bigger stuff than bolters

 

Only way you're doing that is if you're multicharging both units - again you better hope you dont remove out of your charge zone or you wont be able to charge the unit on the left.

[DominicJ]

Well, maybe not destroy two units, but DC are frequently overkill for whatever they plough into

 

10 charging with bolt guns are only marginaly less brutal than ten charging with bolt pistols

 

Your still going to win the combat, but, you get to wreck a second unit as well as the first

 

Or do you have to charge what you shoot?

[Morticon]

Or do you have to charge what you shoot?

 

This ^

 

 

You can still do it with a multicharge though.

[knife&fork]

Any particular reason for that K&F?

 

On the charge DC hit at init 5, S5 and usually on 3s. Against guard (odd example since there aren't many food horde guard lists about) and grunt Nids and Eldar you're wounding on 2s - better odds considering that the average save here is 5+ and most armies wont be without cover from shooting with a 4+.

 

Better odds for wounds against orks (in or out of cover) and better against GK too than bolters.

 

Too many bolter shots against light horde armies also leave you at risk of shooting out your charge zone.

 

For starters I wouldn't count on always getting the charge, specially when you run a squad without packs. Most people know how good DC are on the charge and will gladly feed you a sacrificial unit to slow you down, or even bog you down with something that you'll have a hard time to wipe without the extra edge from FC.

 

For guard I feel that the extra range granted by the bolters is helpful, we already dominate every unit they have in the assault phase. For a podded squad it could also give you a way to remove some bubblewrap or deal with heavy weapon teams/dismounted vets on the drop. Or you might get demeched early riding your rhino. We don't have fleet anymore so might as well do something useful when you end up too far from enemies to assault.

 

For nids it's mostly about the stealers. With only bolt pistols it can be tricky to thin them out before you end up in combat. It's a lot more difficult to hide from relentless bolters.

 

Gk and DE have quite a lot of units that strike before us, every wound we can get before such a combat is important. You also have tarpit units (that can turn into death traps) like wyches.

 

Orks.... well it's situational. But trimming mobs down to a manageable size is definitely useful. Less saves to take and less bodies for him to hind that PK behind.

 

 

Overkilling is always an issue, but it's not like you have to shoot if you don't want to. On the other hand I often find that if a unit has taken enough casualties to end up outside charge range they have also lost enough of their killing power to not be much of a threat anymore.

[Morollan]

Well, maybe not destroy two units, but DC are frequently overkill for whatever they plough into

 

10 charging with bolt guns are only marginaly less brutal than ten charging with bolt pistols

 

Your still going to win the combat, but, you get to wreck a second unit as well as the first

 

Or do you have to charge what you shoot?

 

You don't have to charge what you shoot, as you have the option not to charge at all, but you cannot charge a different target (with the exception of units that were in a transport that you fired on and destroyed). In any event, 20 bolter shots sounds impressive but it really depends on what you're fighting as to how effective they are. Againt MEQ it's only 2 dead marines on average, although against Guard, Gaunts etc it's a lot more impressive. I guess my view is slightly biased as I almost always play against MEQ of one flavour or another so small arms fire doesn't really have a huge impact.

[Imperial Deceit]

Well unless the enemy is within range of your charge, then you don't really have a choice any more. (Thank you rage.)

[knife&fork]

Againt MEQ it's only 2 dead marines on average

 

Only 2 Marines? I'd say that's a good shooting phase what with 4+ cover being everywhere in this edition. With the added bonus of these wounds coming from a lot of saves where your opponent might not be able to just put a wound on some random redshirt as will be the case with a missile or melta shot.