Celestial Tigers

[Armond]

I see what you mean. I will sleep on it, I may just agree with you on that. Nothing else Myxx?

[Myxx]

I have reread the IA, but not the short story, and I have to agree with the previous brothers that there seems to be a lot of irrelevant detail. The origins section is a massive text wall that borders on tedious. While it is a decent timeline of battles, it doesn't really explain who the Lunar Tigers are... "we won this battle, then we won another, then we ran into Dracula (er, Night Lords), then we killed some orcs..." I had to force myself thru the homeworld and timeline to get to the rest, and I may have missed some points, but...

 

what makes them different from White Scars other than the naming convention? How do they see the Emperor? Other than guarding supplies for the Admech, how do they see/interact with the rest of the Imperium? Do they have a compassionate streak towards civilians like Sallies do? Do they maintain monasteries/academies on the homeworld like Ultras? Is their realm rather peaceful and well ran, with a large PDF like the Ultima Segmentum?

Edited June 15, 2012 by Myxx

[Myxx]

darn double post... Edited June 15, 2012 by Myxx

[Armond]

Crap, I guess I need to hit the drawing board again. I see what point you are making, maybe I can come up with something in the next day or so. I was thinking about what you mentioned while prepping for work, I think I have some possibilities rolling around in my head.

[Myxx]

I think I get it now. I just read the short story of Brother Wonsul and it was good. I think you have a lot of good ideas and fodder for stories, and you are putting that into your IA. I think you have this well thought out and are just overloading the information. And I think I may have an idea. Rather than thinking of the IA as an epic tale, the IA should be like a companion to your story-telling, not the stories themselves (which there is another fairly active section for, here on the B&C).

[Andrew J]

Yeah just read through it again. I know it can be very tough to go through it over and over and see anything worth changing. You have a great start and good ideas that you want to get across to the reader. I changed my IA probably 20 times and the end product was very different from my original. I really like how it ended up and it is definitely worth it, you just need to keep reading it over and seeing what is extraneous and what is the core/soul of the chapter that you really need to come across.

 

Right now the origins reads like a history textbook. I think if you convey some more emotions and insights into the narration it would help. Try thinking how they would react to each instance and put that into it. Then go back and reread it and make sure it all works. I think that would help.

 

Onto the homeworld section I think you could easily sum up the whole thing in 2 paragraphs mentioning the basics of the world and continents, then the people and how they integrate with the chapter.

 

Keep up the good work!

[Armond]

Will say more after work, but it has been revised again!

 

Edit: ok, I tried to edit and rewrite some of the sections, hopefully it works. I am still working on the idea of centers of learning, but that might clash with the whole, "allow the people to maintain their current way of life." I just need to once again retread it and do some adjusting. I how the changes that I have made are in the right direction.

 

Edit2: Couple more things changed, added a few things as well! I feel much better about this current version! Thanks so much for all the C&C, more of it would be appreciated!

Edited June 16, 2012 by Armond

[Armond]

Question, I have an emblem I want to use, but I do not know how to transfer it to the pauldron of marines, anyone know someone that can do that. I will upload the emblem once I can, but any help would be awesome!!!

 

@Myxx glad you liked the story!!!

 

@Andrew J I cut back some stuff, hope it is better now!

[Andrew J]

Reread it. Really like the new parts you put in the homeworld as they now work with the chapter and really speak more about the character of them. Also like the reorganzation of the different sections. The history being at the end works better in my opinion. With all the new stuff you have added to the homeworld section make sure you go back through and tie everything together as I can tell where you added new stuff and just left the old there. Maybe add a sentence here and cut a little there.

 

Other than that great job!

 

This I noticed didnt make much sense. To be disciplined and borderline hysterical dont seem to go together. Maybe just a wrong choice of words.

 

Reactions typically varied from borderline hysteria to undignified obeisance, and to see such a controlled reaction spoke highly of the discipline instilled in the people of Jiggu.

[Armond]

Ok, will do. I was talking about the inhabitants that usually see/meet Space Marines for the first time, not the inhabitants of Jiggu, sorry!!! Moved a few things around in the homeworld section, and added a few sentences. Edited June 18, 2012 by Armond

[Arthanor]

First off, the recent changes are quite an improvement! I like the new organization and the new information you have provided.

 

That being said, I think your chapter is missing "grimdark". Of course, not all chapters need it, the salamanders are well known for being nice to people, skillful smiths and fierce warriors at the same time. But they risk being a bit boring, just being "the good guys". It is perfectly acceptable for you to create a chapter of marines "as you think they should be", and your chapter sounds like a quite sensible bunch. But look at the chapters out there: Space Viking (Wolves) who drink and brawl, Black Templars who's zeal pushes to extreme actions and a certain disdain of the humanity they serve, Imperial Fists who's determination pushes to stay in conflict they know are impossible to win and will only lead to higher casualties, Ultramarines who are "perfect" but for their lack of imagination, Blood and Dark Angels and their secrets... They all have something dark. Your chapter does not have to, but for all those I have named, the darkness is a big part of why they are interesting.

 

I am sure you could find a dark side for your chapter too, if only officers having to decide whether to lose their battle-brothers or to abandon "mortals" in the face of the enemy. Or having to choose between accomplishing their goal or protecting civilians. The example in Helsreach where Templars want to push forward and kill an ork boss when they have the opportunity but salamanders stay to protect civilians, only to lose more marines, a priceless weapon of the Imperium to save a shelter of 100 "mortals" of which there are billions is very interesting. The salamanders failed at taking out a significant enemy and reducing their losses but they did succeed at saving the civilians. Everything has a cost and in 40k, you can't accomplish all you objectives because the setting is meant to be grimdark.

 

On a similar note, don't say things like: "the art emphasizes unarmed combat as well as armed combat" what's left? It's a martial art that emphasizes all combat? You can't specialize in everything, if you spend the same amount of time on everything, you're a generalist, not a specialist. You make similar claims about dreadnought deployment "usually by drop pod but other ways as necessary" pretty much means "in whatever way is appropriate" which does not add very much. Your claims on fighting style are also dangerously close to that. They prefer close combat but they don't disregard ranged weapons. Is there is no cost for the preference? If that's so, they can't be remarkable in close combat when compared to chapters which invest so much in it as to become handicapped in other style of combat (Templars come to mind, because they are my army, but I am sure there are others.) Mentioning that the preference has led to more limited fire support would make in more balanced. You say later that they have fewer devastators, that's good! Maybe fewer tactical terminators? close range weaponry on the few dreadnoughts they have? Fewer land raiders with godhammer sponsons and LRCs or LRRs instead?

 

All that to say: When you create an element in a shared fictional universe, there's only 100% of anything. Every chapter of space marines has to be equal overall, otherwise it becomes "My DIY is the most awesome! No, mine does all yours does and MOAR!" like the Ward 'dexes that everybody loves to hate. To make it believable, it has to be "middle of the line" in overall awesome. What makes a good DIY, and yours has lots of potential, is using only 100% of the "space marine chapter awesomeness" while getting something flavorful and special that tailors specifically to what You like.

 

I apologize if this sounds grumpy, I'm trying to write quickly before going to bed. I do like your chapter, it is the first one to catch my interest enough to comment (no offense any one else, I just started looking in here recently). If you want to have sensible marines which are good, nice and not crazy, that works, but in general, 40k is not a sensible setting, so to really fit, there has to be a minimum dose of grimdark.

 

Keep at it, I'm looking forward to the update! :) and once again, well done so far.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Arthanor

[Armond]

I need to find a fault with them, something that makes them a bit darker. But I do like where they. A Chapter based on loyalty, humanitarianism, honor, and martial prowess. I will think of some changes, see where it goes. Everything needs a flaw I suppose, just have to figure it out.

[DarkLiege]

I need to find a fault with them, something that makes them a bit darker. But I do like where they. A Chapter based on loyalty, humanitarianism, honor, and martial prowess. I will think of some changes, see where it goes. Everything needs a flaw I suppose, just have to figure it out.

 

Although I only have read your belief however their flaw could be something along the line where the chapter view of justice is good but also blinded them from they're true mission or something along this line.

 

For example: they view protect the civilian as a higher cause then anything else so they would leave their objective to help leaving some commanders to question their martial prowess. Or their resolve to never retreat has cause them to take unneeded causality to the point that they will defend the place to the death.

 

Just somethings I came up with. feel free to use it or not. My 2 cents. :)

[Armond]

Thanks Darkliege, was working on it, let me know how it looks now!

 

@Arthanor, how does it look now?

[Arthanor]

I'll look into it as soon as I can spare some time (at work at the moment).

 

May I suggest that you put modified sentences in a different font, or bold/italic? It's a lot to reread to try to catch modifications.

[Armond]

An, I will do all future ones like that. I can't recall in detail which ones are what, plus I am on my iPhone right now haha

[Arthanor]

Better ^_^

 

It feels more balanced than before and the drawbacks tie in well with your chapter. I liked that you picked the Raven Guard to have a quarrel with because of their stealth, instead of a more obvious choice like picking Flesh Tearers over their lack of concern for civilians. Disliking someone because of their use of sensible tactics is much more interesting than being nice with civilians and disliking those who aren't. Well done!

 

The changes in combat doctrine are also nice, although I would push it further. I know you like the use of swords, but did you consider other weapons? Polearms are quite strongly associated with asian warfare, at least for me, while swords are more of a western weapon (with the exception of samurais and their katanas, but that's japanese). I'll admit not knowing much about Korean fighting style when it comes to weapons, so maybe they have swords too.. Any ways.. what I was driving at is that it might make an interesting addition to the chapter. Since they were created to fight orks, polearms would shine, the reach allowing you to strike first and thin their numbers, as well as keeping the charging ennemies at bay (and you can always expect orks to charge!).

 

Another idea in a similar vein: maybe your marines are better than others against foes that outnumber them? Like 2 orks vs 1 marine, you bet on the Celestial Tiger instead of the.. Blood Angel. But 1 chaos marine vs 1 marine, the Blood Angel is a better duelist. It would even tie well in your story where they inflict heavy losses on the Night Lords despite being outnumbered. It would be explained by the Night Lords not expecting to face an opponent so skilled in fighting when outnumbered. They rush in, expecting an easy kill and instead face a well organized resistance, so many get cut down before they can readjust. 20 vs 10 is a horrible matchup for a chapter of duelists, they might all die while inflicting few casualties because they focus too much on one ennemy each, leaving many unchecked to flank them and strike them down. 20 vs 10 for Celestial Tigers may not be as bad, they'll all die too, but they kill many in return because they are good at keeping track of every one of them and covering each others. Conversely, 10 vs 10, duelists will perform better, being able to concentrate on one ennemy each and taking them all down with few casualties. Meanwhile the skills of the Tigers don't apply as much, so they suffer many casualties.

 

I don't want to push my ideas into your chapter too much, but I am suggesting those because whenever someone chooses close combat as the focus of their DIY (which is often, sword fights being more epic than gun fights), they often pick sword dueling because they think of mighty heroes dueling to death and their chapter master triumphing over whatever monster they were fighting, and swords are THE awesome, knightly/noble weapon. It's cool, but that's not all there is. Space marines in general are outnumbered when fighting anything but a few xenos (eldar or necrons) or other space marines. Being good at fighting when outnumbered makes them good at what they are supposed to do, especially in your case where the focus of the chapter is supposed to be orks. It ties well with your choice of main opponent and it would make you stand out too.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Arthanor

[Armond]

I thought about spears, because I do know of their popularity in Asian culture as a whole. But if you look at Korean history, specifically at Hwarang, you will see a large amount of sword, spear, and bow. A lot of it is horseback, but I kind of only used the idea of quick engagement, no staying mounted. But are there rules where polearms are present in 40k for Space Marines? I am trying to build an army of Artscale Astartes based on this Chapter as well.

 

The thing is, swords are just an aspect of armed close combat that they prefer. If you also noticed, unarmed combat was also a big deal, seeing you read my story. The only problem is it is situational. I am better off fighting someone with a weapon if they are armed and I am skilled with it. But once I lose that weapon I may have to resort to unarmed combat.

 

BTW, what did you think about the short story?

Edited June 19, 2012 by Armond

[Arthanor]

I see, I guess it might be worth a detour to wiki to see what they say about the Hwarang to see where your inspiration is coming from specifically.

 

There are no rules for polearms in 40k, except the nemesis force halberds of the Grey Knight which give +2 ini, so for "regular" sm, it is just a modeling question, really.

 

Both my suggestions were only that, food for thoughts for things that might tie well to your chapter. The are also independant, so if you want to keep swords, you can still consider the fighting styles, or just keep it undefined.

 

I liked the story and it is the base of my suggestion that your chapter might be specialized in engagements where they are outnumbered and supporting each others. The fight that you describe, with brothers waiting behind the line to support their brethren if needed, support fire and taking down more of their disorganized ennemies than they lose fits well with that. When the Night Lords fall back and realize that they can't just rush in, the fight becomes more equal, too. Overall, this makes me think that the Tigers are good at keeping their cool and supporting each other against many disorganized foes but are not duelists. They suffered more when it was 8 careful Night Lords vs 5 Tigers than when it was ~20 crazed ones vs 8-10 Tigers. I found it to be a very interesting trait, different from what most others try to do by making their individuals outstanding, instead of the squads. That's mostly what I got from it, otherwise it was relatively easy to read and tied well with the chapter you are describing in the IA.

[Andrew J]

I like the added grimdarkness. Your new parts are flowing well into the older parts and it is coming along well.

[Armond]

@Arthanor, I am trying to refine some of their combat doctrine. Glad it is better!

 

@AndrewJ, I hope the added grim darkness makes sense, just wait for the updated timeline. Will try to get it posted tonight!

 

Is thing anywhere near complete?

[Arthanor]

I'm nowhere near an IA expert, but to me it feels pretty close to something you could call complete. Obviously, you can keep working at it forever, depending on how much of a perfectionist you are. From the headers of the template and the content of your article, it now covers most, if not all, of what you would expect an IA to cover.

[Armond]

Hopefully I can get a few more eyes to check it out and give a few pointers. I do appreciate all the help, any other things noted could be helpful. I am looking to start building my Chapter, 4th Company in the near future in Artscale form. :)

[Andrew J]

I would say you are also close to complete. I think you could be satisfied with said IA now, but obviously if you wanted to do more you can. I couldnt see anything to change from the last update.

[Armond]

Good deal, I just want it to be a good piece of work! I want to create a second IA for the Night Lords splinter that attacked the Celestial Tigers, on the Valiant Rhee. I think it would make a nice project and a good way to see the two IAs going kind of hand in hand. I just need to come up with a few more chance or planned encounters to give it some true hatred of each other.