Most Competitive Unit Available?

[JMac]

Hey, I was thinking about what makes us Blood Angels more effective than other marines, only leading to the conclusions of speed and punch. It arose another question; Which unit then is the most efficient, effective and competitive unit available to us?

 

I was inclined to say Meph, right off the top of my head, but wanted to see what fellow posters have to say. I would like to stress the key word, COMPETITIVE, as their are a lot of personal opinions out there...

[Morticon]

I think its a loaded question that asks something in a vacuum.

 

There is no such thing as a "competitive unit".

There are units that are helpful and strong in certain instances and in certain combinations.

 

But, all units depend on the environment, the build and their relation to the rest of the units in the army.

[Enzephalon]

Discussing the "competitiveness" of a single unit without any context gotta be the most useless thing to do.

Any unit can be decent in a certain environment (or horrible btw), and most of them can be what you refer to as competitive, depending on the setup.

[Leksington]

Removing scoring unit issues...

 

In a vacuum, Mephiston is the most competitive unit.

If you can manage their rage, DC without JPs are second.

 

And since I generally run a DoA list, I don't use either of them. ;) If I went to a transport oriented army, I'd take Meph and a unit of DC every single time.

[JMac]

Ok, I'll reiterate: Which unit then is the most efficient, effective and competitive unit available to us?

 

Competitive being the keyword, don't forget efficient and effective. :P

 

I'm not sure how this is useless. As I agree there are different situations and plenty of variables to consider, but I also believe that there is a standard that units must be held up to. For example: No one takes a whirlwind, because in a game wide standard, they do not fulfill a role needed by many armies. On the other hand, the Assault Squad is widely used because of their ability to take special weapons, their jump packs/transports at a discount, they're scoring, and are just plain better options than other troops choices we have. With unit breakdowns and different opinions from across the net, we can actually help each other by diagnosing problems and/or developing strategies.

 

Edit: I'll also add that when I speak of competitive, I define it as the competition in a tournament scene. 40k has many aspects to it; Hobbying, Painting and Gaming, and while some of us aren't as good at the first two, those (like myself) strive to be better at the latter.

[Brother Xeones]

I think you are still not understanding that there is still no right answer for such a broad question. It's like asking "what is the best type of fruit?" There are two many variables to consider and it forces you to place subjective values on too many disparate factors in order to come to any conclusion.

 

Which is more efficient/effective/competitive? A good deathstar unit or a strong support unit? Which is better, a Chaplain or a Sanguinary Priest?

 

Given a more narrow context and criteria, the answers can be more simple. Such as "Which is better to add to a unit of Death Company: a Chaplain or a Sanguinary Priest?" Suddenly, the answer becomes obvious --the Chaplain is the best choice because the DC already have all of the special benefits of the SP's bubble.

 

There are units that many people take because they are good units and they are cost effective/efficient. 5-man assault squads in razorbacks are often taken because you can get a lot of them in a standard sized list and they are quite effective en mass. Mephiston is a beast in certain situations and works well in mechanized lists where he can hide behind your tank hulls, but still keep up with them as they advance. For pure face-bashing a unit of Death Company headed by Lemartes is a real wrecking ball. But to say which is best among them is nigh impossible. There are a number of fairly competitive lists that you can build that don't include any of the units that I have just mentioned. One of the signs of a good codex is that there is more than one right answer to most questions when it comes to building lists. Say what you will about Mat Ward, but his codices usually have pretty good internal balance.

[Morticon]

Bang Per buck - i think DC are incredible.

20 points for all those special abilities.

Amazing.

 

Mephiston in the right hands is incredible too, as is Corbulo in the right lists.

 

Attack bikes for me are also in that category.

 

Beyond that, my BA article on efficiency (needing a rewrite) touches on this.

I believe 5man Razorback squads (heavy razor, MG + special combat weapon) are great as are 10man Jumpy squads with 2MG and a fist. (These are also helped greatly by priest support).

 

Terminators are insanely good but fall down a bit on their lack of mobility and need for more point investment to allow their better placement and battlefield mobility.

[Leonaides]

Lets build a unit - Lets give it PA, since we're a PA-forum. Then lets give it 10W and Eternal Warrior. Then lets give it a pair of hurricane bolters(ish), a variable number of CC attacks (up to 22), and S8. If it was a Tyranid creature, you'd be screaming UBERCHEEZE! if it came in at anything less than 400-odd points. And yet a marine tactical squad can be your for the princely sum of 195. And its scoring. And it can fit in any transport.

[Drunken Angel]

I like the question, open it up a little to allow it for the variations and options that have correctly pointed out need consideration.

 

Expand this and look at the top 10 contenders.

 

One plus for the humble RAS, they do it all for us and can be set up for almost anything either DOA or Razor spam.

Another plus for an honour guard squad with 4 meltas just too useful to not take

 

If you go by how other armies fear us then 4-6 Death Company with or without JP's. Have them carrying a hammer and a few power weapons with Lemartes in assault and they are up there. Everyone wisely fears a Death Company Dread carrying blood talons.

 

Efficient and competitive can be in two categories Razorspam or DOA. Some form of Vanguard Vet squad for a DOA list is a must have

[Wax_Assassin]

10 ASM, 2x melta, fist. Score, kill tanks, kill infantry. The trifecta.

[Deschenus Maximus]

The Razorback with TLAC turret. Cheap (when bought for ASM), pretty durable for it's price, and incredibly versatile. I would never attend a tournament without a backbone of assbacks.

[The Holy Heretic]

And all of these are beaten by The humble GK strike squad.

 

Face it. If you want to be 'competitive' and do the spam thing, then abandon the red and go for silver :blink:

[Drunken Angel]

And all of these are beaten by The humble GK strike squad.

 

Face it. If you want to be 'competitive' and do the spam thing, then abandon the red and go for silver :)

 

I dont think anyone wants discussion on a "spam thing" just what the average BA player finds usefull in day to day table top game play, a sharing of ideas so to speak.

Perhaps you could post more on GK superiority in the silver forum, if we wanted to read about GK prowess then we would ...... in the gk section;)

 

I have thrashed and broken GK strike squads with Lemartes easily then gone on to kill GKGM's and rip chunks out of his terminator retinue.

All this with just 6 DC and a humble RAS :D

I dont know many units that re-roll hits and wounds as well as Lemartes and the DC do

There is nothing like varied initiative in your assault to upset GK wound shenanigans and the DC have it in spades when run with Lemartes.

 

I hope there is more to the game than beating just one army like GK. One good thing about GK is BA jump packers are a lot more mobile than GK and feel no pain makes us hard for GK to down. The only real issue is rending 6's with psycannnons which brings us back to the RAS.

RAS and a priest as an extemely resilient, efficient unit.

[Drachnon]

I'd say for troops assault squads are the most competitive, though I am a big fan of DC as well. I don't think our tacticals and scouts can be considered competitive when assault squads play into our strengths better.

[Imperial Deceit]

A lot of what makes the unit 'competitive' is really dependent on the situation your in, and honestly, your play style. Against hordes I love to watch my DCD tear 30 unit squads apart single handed, and Dante can turn an enemy commander into wimp just by being in play. Also lets not forget about Astorath who makes a mockery of invulnerable saves, or any other chaplain that makes your assault unit even more assaulty. And then there is the DC, a literal pimp my squad of the BA, who can be so heavily tricked out they can easily cost more then the rest of your army combined.

[the jeske]

I think its a loaded question that asks something in a vacuum.

 

There is no such thing as a "competitive unit".

There are units that are helpful and strong in certain instances and in certain combinations.

 

But, all units depend on the environment, the build and their relation to the rest of the units in the army.

 

the MM attack bikes ? everything else is a question of build and unit synergy . even for BA razor builds there are no units like SW or GK ones which say take X at Y points to win. specialy as the most opitmal build BAs have is not a pure shoty razor build anyway.

[JMac]

I think you are still not understanding that there is still no right answer for such a broad question. It's like asking "what is the best type of fruit?" There are two many variables to consider and it forces you to place subjective values on too many disparate factors in order to come to any conclusion.

 

Which is more efficient/effective/competitive? A good deathstar unit or a strong support unit? Which is better, a Chaplain or a Sanguinary Priest?

 

Given a more narrow context and criteria, the answers can be more simple. Such as "Which is better to add to a unit of Death Company: a Chaplain or a Sanguinary Priest?" Suddenly, the answer becomes obvious --the Chaplain is the best choice because the DC already have all of the special benefits of the SP's bubble.

 

There are units that many people take because they are good units and they are cost effective/efficient. 5-man assault squads in razorbacks are often taken because you can get a lot of them in a standard sized list and they are quite effective en mass. Mephiston is a beast in certain situations and works well in mechanized lists where he can hide behind your tank hulls, but still keep up with them as they advance. For pure face-bashing a unit of Death Company headed by Lemartes is a real wrecking ball. But to say which is best among them is nigh impossible. There are a number of fairly competitive lists that you can build that don't include any of the units that I have just mentioned. One of the signs of a good codex is that there is more than one right answer to most questions when it comes to building lists. Say what you will about Mat Ward, but his codices usually have pretty good internal balance.

 

Fair enough. I was thinking of what makes the Blood Angels so good on the table top, and wanted to get to the root of the question. While build and synergy have a ton of influence on whether or not the unit succeeds, I feel there are some units that can just be so good they can/should be included in every list. Whether or not that is true, I took it to the forums to get other people's perspective on it to help expand my thinking on the subject matter.

 

For example, in my meta, Death Company are considered widely noncompetitive while I have always disagreed with that. Conversely, a lot of posters here seem to swear by them.

 

I feel you make valid points and would like to narrow it down, but I will do so in other topics as I think each one is it's own conversation separately.

 

And all of these are beaten by The humble GK strike squad.

 

Face it. If you want to be 'competitive' and do the spam thing, then abandon the red and go for silver

NEVER! I see 30%+ Grey Knights in attendance at the tournaments I attend. If I give into them, I'll be just another number contributing to their so-called competitive nature. If all the best players turned to one army, I have no doubt that army would boost in sale numbers off sheer popularity alone. I wouldn't mind picking up some models though, they are pretty sweet. At least GW did something right lately ;)

 

The Razorback with TLAC turret. Cheap (when bought for ASM), pretty durable for it's price, and incredibly versatile. I would never attend a tournament without a backbone of assbacks.

You really love these things! I am aware of their capability and what they can bring to the table, but at the end of the day, I don't roll enough sixes to bring these guys in bulk. I would love to see your tactics with them though.

[Xenith]

The answer is a unit of 2 MM attack bikes.

[DV8]

Really? I could have sworn that the answer would've been 42...

 

As to the OP's original question, it's not even really a "loaded" question as it is one that is impossible to answer.

 

You want to find the singular most competitive, effective, and efficient unit, but in a vacuum. You don't take into consideration objectives, terrain/deployment/player style, specific opponents/enemy units. Every unit will rate differently on those three criteria (competitiveness, effectiveness, and efficiency) based on any myriad of factors that you want to remove from the equation.

 

It's like asking a mathematician to solve for X in this formula:

 

X=

 

Case in point:

 

10 Death Company are pretty effective at eating through hordes of Orks, more so than 10 Assault Marines.

10 Assault Marines are great for holding objectives, 10 Death Company, not at all.

 

Which unit is more effective?

 

There are also certain units that have increased efficiency/effectiveness in certain situations.

 

A Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack providing Feel No Pain and Furious Charge to 6 Assault Squads is being more effective and more points efficient (points cost of Priest to buffs handed out) than a Priest that does the same to only 2 Assault Squads.

 

 

DV8

[Deschenus Maximus]

You really love these things! I am aware of their capability and what they can bring to the table, but at the end of the day, I don't roll enough sixes to bring these guys in bulk. I would love to see your tactics with them though.

 

Yeah, I love them.

 

The sixes issue is really helped by having quality dice. Casino dice rejects (3-5$ a pop) will greatly improve the evenness of your roll distribution. If you really want to go all out, get certified casino dice (I've seen then at 25$ for two... too rich for my blood).

 

Tactics are actually fairly simple: deploy the razors together at the center of the board, advance, dakka, dakka some more. If your opponent has an army that is inferior in CC, close the gap and assault. If you are playing against a superior CC combattant, keep him at arm's length while you continue to dakka him to death.

 

A librarian with Shield of Sanguinius is really helpful.

[SevenExxes]

The best unit in Bloods? Sanguinary Priest. 'Nuff said.

 

 

 

And all of these are beaten by The humble GK strike squad.

 

Face it. If you want to be 'competitive' and do the spam thing, then abandon the red and go for silver ;)

 

How about no?

[Xenith]

Really? I could have sworn that the answer would've been 42...

 

As to the OP's original question, it's not even really a "loaded" question as it is one that is impossible to answer.

Indeed, however I believe that you will be hard pressed to find anything for 100pts that matches the speed, firepower, survivability etc of those 2 attack bikes.

 

Small arms fire ignored due to T5, 2W, 3+, The only real danger is long range anti tank, but they have the speed to get behind cover, and can turboboost if needed.

 

You wont find a throwaway unit with more utility, and point for point, I feel could easily win in a straight fight against the other units suggested.

[DV8]

@Xenith - You misunderstand me. I'm not saying 2 Multi-Melta Attack Bikes are bad. Nor am I saying they're good. I am saying that it is unfair and a mistake to attempt to determine a unit's competitiveness, effectiveness, and efficiency purely in a vacuum (without also considering it's role in the army, expected missions, potential army matchups, etc).

 

@Knife&Fork - Yes and no. I think that Blood Angels are capable of all-round armies, but in a different manner. Armies like Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and Imperial Guard tend to be able to build armies to focus primarily on being able to match up to any opponent army with all the right tools for the job. They tend to do very well in Kill Point and Bases, but depending on the particular list can struggle with Multiple Objectives, because of how their lists tend to be built (lots of units built around synergy, or "spamming" lots of units to put out more firepower, create target saturation, etc.)

 

Blood Angels on the other hand, tend to be all-round focused on objectives, hammering and obliterating key parts of the enemy before slipping away to attack another flank. More costly, but faster units means they can maneuver and reposition faster, but you have less units to do so. You hit harder, but take hits just the same as the rest and you have less to absorb with. I find Blood Angels end to do very well in Multiple Objectives and Bases, but will struggle with Kill Points (again, depending on the particular list) because you can't really play the attrition game, and the cost of your units versus what they actually can do don't balance out the same compared to Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and Imperial Guard.

 

Does this make Blood Angels a worse army? Absolutely not. It certainly makes them a harder army to play, because a lot of your strategy will revolve around how you build and play your list, and it forces you to think ahead constantly about objectives, planning your moves to end up holding the objectives in the end.

 

 

DV8

[knife&fork]

Armies like Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and Imperial Guard tend to be able to build armies to focus primarily on being able to match up to any opponent army with all the right tools for the job.

 

Well, that's what I call a superior codex. :)

 

BA certainly isn't daemons or tau bad. But it's not quite up there with the big three.

[DV8]

Armies like Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and Imperial Guard tend to be able to build armies to focus primarily on being able to match up to any opponent army with all the right tools for the job.

 

Well, that's what I call a superior codex. :)

 

BA certainly isn't daemons or tau bad. But it's not quite up there with the big three.

 

Again I wouldn't call Space Wolves or Imperial Guard "superior" codices. They certainly can get trounced by Blood Angels in Multiple Objectives and Bases. Or at the very least pull consistent draws. It's just that the books focus on doing different things. Wolves and Guard focus on killing, Blood Angels focus on objectives.

 

If anything, Grey Knights takes the cake for being the top all-round codex (Tier 1) with Wolves, Angels and Guard coming in Tier 2.

 

 

DV8