Monolythic Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Can his re-roll be used on the roll to end the game? I've search FAQ pages and can't find a definitive answer. Thanks, Andrew <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Monolythic, this is a REALLY contentious issue that I feel really strongly about. Firstly, most tournaments in the US (thanks to INAT) rule against it. INAT have listed their ruling on this as either a "RAW or "Clarification". I disagree with both. If they want to rule against it, it should be a "Rules Change". If you and your mates don't care about INAT, then I suggest the following: Pg: 90 (small rule book) "At the end of game turn 5, a player must roll a dice". (emphasis mine). C: BA pg 49 "Corbulo allows you a single re-roll once per game. This can be any roll you have made,.." Now, to me this is CLEAR as day. However, it does open up one small issue (which i do believe is easy solved). The issue is clearly your opponent doesn't want you to roll the last dice. So, who gets to roll it? You want to because you want to use the re-roll, he wants to because he doesn't want you to. The rules only specify "a player". In this situation I believe the ONLY way to resolve this is to use Pg2's "The Most Important Rule" and dice off, to see who dices off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 that's why we usually let a 3rd person make the roll :D I would say you can't since it's not your roll, but an "external" roll affecting the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJude Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 that's why we usually let a 3rd person make the roll :D I would say you can't since it's not your roll, but an "external" roll affecting the game I would have to respectfully disagree and here's why. Bearing in mind the context, and Mort's emphasis on the rule for rolling for the end of a game, a third person who is "external" does not fit the definition of "a player". While I am not too bothered about who rolls it, based on the case Mort is making, I would have to agree with his conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 that's why we usually let a 3rd person make the roll :D I would say you can't since it's not your roll, but an "external" roll affecting the game We have that convention here too Ushtarador - incidentally that's why the argument against Corbs was made here. However, your view of it being an "external" roll is not supported by the rules. Pg90 very clearly says "a player". A 3rd person is not "a player" in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 hmhm that's true. So maybe roll for who may roll for the last turn is the best compromise one can make. Corbulo will most likely have used that reroll sometime earlier anyway, so it shouldn't happen that often I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglespuss Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 This seems a daft debate... whoever's turn it is (i.e. whoever went second/or first if you play it that way) gets to make the roll... therefore, if you have corbulo, but don;t have the advantage of being in the situation to decide if the game ends... then you didn't make the roll so don't get the reroll. simple to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Corbulo will most likely have used that reroll sometime earlier anyway, so it shouldn't happen that often I guess. Thats what I found too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 This seems a daft debate... whoever's turn it is (i.e. whoever went second/or first if you play it that way) gets to make the roll... That's fine as a house rule, but again, not supported by the rules in the rule book. therefore, if you have corbulo, but don;t have the advantage of being in the situation to decide if the game ends... then you didn't make the roll so don't get the reroll. simple to me! No one was arguing about using corbs reroll on a dice that isn't yours- just who rolls the end dice. As noted above, its not like you said. Hence the "daft debate". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolythic Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 I can't believe the resolution is something do Chinsy as "if you are the one who physically rolls the game ending die then it's re-rollable". That just seems so.... Unofficial. I've always read and played it that Corbulo can cause a reroll on any neutral roll or any roll I make. Seizing the initiative is something that is very close to a game ending roll and he can mess with that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I can't believe the resolution is something do Chinsy as "if you are the one who physically rolls the game ending die then it's re-rollable". That just seems so.... Unofficial. I've always read and played it that Corbulo can cause a reroll on any neutral roll or any roll I make. Seizing the initiative is something that is very close to a game ending roll and he can mess with that one. Not sure what "do Chinsy" is (unless its an autocorrect from a phone) - either way - the rule is very clear that "far seeing eye" allows you a reroll on a roll you have rolled. There are no allowances for "neutral rolls" - theres no such thing in the rules. It is the fact that the roll for end is not initially explicitly designated that leads players to question it- however, when considered in conjunction with the BA rules, there is zero rules conflict aside from people "feeling its not right". I'm yet to be shown an argument that even hints otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Hope i'm not bullying anyone out of opinions here !!! Are there any contesting thoughts beyond intuition and stuff based on house-rules? I'm keen to hear why people think (if they do) this can't be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 As a non BA player and hence not under the influence of a BA moderator (yeah right... xD)... I understand what you mean...but its SO SO SO RAW that it makes me reel. ;) Honestly, even in a tough tournament enviroment, if someone pulls that one on me...they better have their models nicely packed away! Yes, I think you are right in the RAW. No, I cannot think of any way in which "a player rolls" and "you repeat a roll you made" gets into conflict. But I promise I've never (in a lot of tournaments...just like you ;)) faced a situation where "who rolls the extra turn" got into an issue. Situations like this makes me a really really sad panda :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Scenario: A BA player suffers wounds from a plasma cannon. These wounds are rolled by the opponent. No armour saves are used as it ignores 3+. Now, Corbulo would be able to use his Far Seeing Eye to re-roll the plasmacannon hit and save the wounds. (Page 49 C:BA Far Seeing Eye: Corbulo allows you a single re-roll once per game.) Therefore the BA player is re-rolling a dice roll in which they didn't actually roll. So therefore Corbulo's Far Seeing Eye should be able to be used regardless of who rolled the game ending dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 As per Morticon's quotes... I shoot my plasma cannon and hit ------- at this point in time, you have to decide whether to use or not Corbulo's rule...but you can't, since I rolled the dice and you can only affect your own rolls ------- I shoot the to-wound and if I roll a 2+, your marine is dead. Nothing extreme-RAW here...its how the rule is intented, if I understood it properly. If for example you were in cover, rolled a 4++, missed...NOW you can decide to repeat your roll ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Page 49 C:BA Far Seeing Eye: Corbulo allows you a single re-roll once per game This doesn't specify a re-roll of the player rolled dice only. There are examples of what the re-roll can be used for and these examples are player rolled dice rolls. So is Corbulo's Far Seeing Eye only able to be used on a player only dice roll or can it be used on opponent dice rolls? The first line of the rules states "a single re-roll per game." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Page 49 C:BA Far Seeing Eye: Corbulo allows you a single re-roll once per game This doesn't specify a re-roll of the player rolled dice only. There are examples of what the re-roll can be used for and these examples are player rolled dice rolls. So is Corbulo's Far Seeing Eye only able to be used on a player only dice roll or can it be used on opponent dice rolls? The first line of the rules states "a single re-roll per game." Afraid it does: C: BA pg 49"Corbulo allows you a single re-roll once per game. This can be any roll you have made,.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Perhaps ask about this in the Official Rules forum for a wider scope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 As a non BA player and hence not under the influence of a BA moderator (yeah right... xD)... I understand what you mean...but its SO SO SO RAW that it makes me reel. :P Honestly, even in a tough tournament enviroment, if someone pulls that one on me...they better have their models nicely packed away! Tanhausen- are you using RAW as a pejorative? I'm not sure what you mean by it being "SO..RAW". Because to me it means what the rules are as they are in the book. If that's the case, why the concern ? It's very, very clear on first reading. Not just in my view- but as you admitted on the reading of it for yours too. It's not something that needs to be interpreted or argued from an angle and its not something that is even vaguely ambiguous - I just think because it "seems unfair" and is different from the normal way things are played, people freak out. I think the only thing that speaks to its potential conflict within the system is not having an explicit condition for who rolls end game. I won't use fluff as a back up for rules, but is it really that much of a stretch that Corbulo can use his prescience to determine when the tides of battle will shift and at what point to change things for the better? It's not like the 3rd ed "Terminators don't wear terminator armour!" argument. Its not a disjointed argument or an around the corner one. The only reason people seem to dislike it is because it "feels wrong". And the problem with that is that its subjective. On the very first reading of this rule the FIRST thing I thought (in my subjectiveness) was the end of game role. One or two people I know too. In my view of intent, this was perfectly acceptable by any reasonable reading. Here's a hypothetical: Ever met someone incredibly superstitious about their dice/rolling? I have -all the time. Let's say I believe I ALWAYS roll 2s when it comes to end 5th turn. Let's say my opponent believes he ALWAYS rolls 4+ when it comes to end 5th turn. Now, lets say we're playing and he is beating me. I dont want to roll game end, neither does he. We're the only two players around. What now? It seems a bit far fetched- but I have met players like this (I didnt care abt the end roll so i always rolled, or allowed him to roll if he requested) but, say two people come up like this. What then? How do they decide who is to roll? Only one way really- and the rules on page 2 allow for it very easily. (side note: Does threatening to pack up your toys and end a game because you don't like the way the rule is worded because you dont believe it to be the way it is intended not seem a little harsh (if that is indeed what you're saying)? ) Also, (and again( not trying to shoot anyone down or bully peeps into my belief- but I really just need to try and unpack why people would, A: think otherwise, and B: have issue with it being as it is RAW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenExxes Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Page 49 C:BA Far Seeing Eye: Corbulo allows you a single re-roll once per game This doesn't specify a re-roll of the player rolled dice only. There are examples of what the re-roll can be used for and these examples are player rolled dice rolls. So is Corbulo's Far Seeing Eye only able to be used on a player only dice roll or can it be used on opponent dice rolls? The first line of the rules states "a single re-roll per game." Afraid it does: C: BA pg 49"Corbulo allows you a single re-roll once per game. This can be any roll you have made,.." *Lenny voice* Awww, nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanhausen Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Hi there :P Yeah, I guess my post was a bit too wound up...but its just because most people I've crossed on a board that come up with this stuff...they're usually exploiting some legal-ish tiny bit (which is quite something coming from a lawyer hehe). Yes, I have used RAW as a pejorative term. And I absolutely agree that your reasoning is sound (if it isn't...at least I share it!!!). My feeling (so no rules here) is that it stops being fun when people force the situation. Legal? Sure. An easy example: remember when the GK codex came out...you could get the Dreadknight the personal teleportes but since the equipment description didn't include the DK, you couldn't actually use it? So you suddenly can buy a 75 point piece of wargear...but not use it by RAW? Furthermore...the teleporter said the unit was now jump-pack (or whatever is the jumpy infantry category in BRB in English)... huh? So the DK not is no longer a MC, but is a JP unit? All in all...I apologize if I came across a bit harsh, but these situations do get the worst out of me. And yes, I've packed my stuff and left a gaming table more than once when I've seen this situation. My opponent wants to play, enjoy some tight competitive gaming and see who pulls out the most well thought tactics and has the hottests hand? I'm your man. My opponent wants to audit every single action, try to shove insolit RAW situations so he can claim he won? He can be my guest, win the game and...wait, life still goes on! :huh: But not wasting my time on a situation I don't enjoy. I understand the harcore RAW point of view. But I don't share it for situations which make absolutely no sense, like "its not said who rolls for variable duration" or "you bought a 75 point piece of gear you can't use". BTW, I'm really superstitous (sp?) with my rolling xDDD Thanks for sharing and being able to freely talk about situations like this in a civilized fashion like we do is one of the things I most value at B&C :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I can tell you why tournaments rule against it. It avoids arguments about who rolls off for last turn. As ruling that it works creates the only situation where this argument will always occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 @Mort: While you are technically right, I too feels that it "feels" wrong. You're not even allowed to reroll the dice for who goes first (as per the FAQ), so I think it's not much of a stretch to think that you can't reroll for the end of the game, which is a "neutral" roll (i.e. not assigned to a specific player). Someone should submit the question to the GW FAQ guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 You're not even allowed to reroll the dice for who goes first (as per the FAQ).. Im alright with that though, Desh. On account of Corb's rule saying "once per game" and on account of the set up types (pg 92/93) all having a specific "Start the Game!" point which is after the rolling for who goes first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Doesn't Steal the Initiative also happen before that point, though? Yet you are allowed to reroll that one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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