Morticon Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yessir. Its why I believe we're able to do well or as some may say "be competitive" :P heheheh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3075966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yeah, and why is that? And how come SW is doing so much better than BA despite being a much older codex? Because it scratches the bandwagoner itch to take the latest release to the top, break the codex, find the perfect army, etc. BA have been done to death, there is nothing 'new' to explore there, competitive tournament-wise. Doesn't mean they aren't still very good. It's like Vanilla SM with Null-zone, Vulkan, Hammernators, etc. All still really good, just OLD. Still waiting on this proof knife&fork of 'they say SW/GK/IG are a cut above'. Who is they? I referenced you to YTTH for an opinion competitive players tend to put a lot of weight behind who says 'there are no tiers in 40k.' All you have to do is give me something meaningful. Otherwise as above, there are no competitive vs non competitive tiers, just competitive vs non competitive armies. And the BA codex gives you a huge amount of scope to make a competitive army, which makes it a great codex, unlike say, Tau or Tyranids, in which competitive armies are hard to come by. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3075977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yeah I don't see how you can take a codex with solid jump infantry (with melta :cuss) or cheap 18" speed transports in Troops, resiliency auras, availability of melta, Furious Charge and Fearless handed out like candy, good psykers, Move&fire AV13, and not be able to make a competitive army in the tournament circuit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3075982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Dave Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Basically what Mezkh said ^.^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3075983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Because it scratches the bandwagoner itch to take the latest release to the top, break the codex, find the perfect army, etc. BA have been done to death, there is nothing 'new' to explore there, competitive tournament-wise. Doesn't mean they aren't still very good. It's like Vanilla SM with Null-zone, Vulkan, Hammernators, etc. All still really good, just OLD. Still waiting on this proof knife&fork of 'they say SW/GK/IG are a cut above'. Who is they? I referenced you to YTTH for an opinion competitive players tend to put a lot of weight behind who says 'there are no tiers in 40k.' All you have to do is give me something meaningful. :rolleyes: And yet wolves remain popular and strong... and necrons haven't really hit off. All the popular lists tend to be very similar, and C:SM isn't was it once was. Just like nob bikers, lash and bike councils... Results worldwide speaks for themselves. Want to prove me wrong, go dominate the tournament circuit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Bracchio Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I guess the crux (terminatus :rolleyes: ) of the matter here is semanthic Knife&fork. I don't think being competitive means steamrolling games, but have the fighting chance. BAs can win afgainst pretty much everything in the right hands, which in my book makes them a competitive army. Is not as easy as with other codices, but DoAble. Maybe is just that our concepts of competition are different Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Only one way to settle this gentleman. Whip them out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Only one way to settle this gentleman. Whip them out. Thats what St Celestine said. :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I guess the crux (terminatus :) ) of the matter here is semanthic Knife&fork. I don't think being competitive means steamrolling games, but have the fighting chance. BAs can win afgainst pretty much everything in the right hands, which in my book makes them a competitive army. Is not as easy as with other codices, but DoAble. Nobody is saying that BA can't win matches, are they? There isn't a space wolf or GK list we can't beat. It's just that to do (reliably) so we have to tailor our lists to the point where we compromise with our all around performance. They don't. Personally I don't mind playing a the (slight) underdog or running oddball lists for the extra challenge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I guess the crux (terminatus :) ) of the matter here is semanthic Knife&fork. I don't think being competitive means steamrolling games, but have the fighting chance. BAs can win afgainst pretty much everything in the right hands, which in my book makes them a competitive army. Is not as easy as with other codices, but DoAble. Nobody is saying that BA can't win matches, are they? There isn't a space wolf or GK list we can't beat. It's just that to do (reliably) so we have to tailor our lists to the point where we compromise with our all around performance. They don't. Personally I don't mind playing a the (slight) underdog or running oddball lists for the extra challenge. Sorry, but if you have to tailor a BA list to beat a SW/GK/IG all-comers list then that's a you problem not a Codex problem... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Sorry, but if you have to tailor a BA list to beat a SW/GK/IG all-comers list then that's a you problem not a Codex problem... I said reliably. Post something that you think will do well against all of the above :) ...and when you are done with this ulitmate BA list, this grand unified theory of the warhammer world, please make a sticky so that none of us will have to struggle against a good opponent with a good list ever again. ok? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 While BA tournament wins are very rare US Tournament wins BOK they do have good win % 's in individual games so if you want to win games BA are good if you want to win tournaments not so good Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crimson Cartel Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Only one way to settle this gentleman. Whip them out. Could always set up some form of vassal mini tournament between all strongly opinionated brothers.... whatcha think Mort/JamesI?? -CC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Post something that you think will do well against all of the above :( ...and when you are done with this ulitmate BA list, this grand unified theory of the warhammer world, please make a sticky so that none of us will have to struggle against a good opponent with a good list ever again. ok? Doesn't work that way.:D List building is only one part of the whole gaming experience. Just as important as building a good list are : - a savvy deployment. I can't help you if you put all of my "uber-units" under the gun. - a good battle plan. Just remember the adage "No plan survives contact with the enemy". - smart maneuvering, threat assessment, and improvisation. Because the dice will fail you when it's most advantageous to the enemy. - maintaining the mission objectives. If you try and win by Annihilation every time you face Grey Knights, then God have mercy on your soul - because I don't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Nobody is saying that BA can't win matches, are they? There isn't a space wolf or GK list we can't beat. It's just that to do (reliably) so we have to tailor our lists to the point where we compromise with our all around performance. They don't. Look up competitive in a dictionary, and then reread your comments on here. Who needs "all round performance" anyway? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 To think that you folks have the temerity to complain about your Codex...Try using C:SM against YOUR lists, then complain... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 List building is only one part of the whole gaming experience. Of course. What I'm asking is what you would bring to a series of games, let's say 1750 + standard rulebook missions, with some common variations of the usual GK/IG/SW lists as well as some other random armies like 'crons or DE. Who needs "all round performance" anyway? People who want to win tournaments? Or those that doesn't have huge model collections and prefer to run a base build with some slight variations. To think that you folks have the temerity to complain about your Codex...Try using C:SM against YOUR lists, then complain... Power creeps sucks, but who's complaining about our dex in this thread? Most of the people here are insisting it's great, maybe the best in the game. Others, like me, simply say it's not quite in the top 3 but still good. If you want frustrating, try Necrons vs infantry heavy BA. Poor, poor Necrons.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 To think that you folks have the temerity to complain about your Codex...Try using C:SM against YOUR lists, then complain... As noted above, the majority of posters are not complaining. Another poster came in telling us BA weren't competitive. This thread is a discussion about that. And Crimson - im dead keen for some Vassal show downs. Would really dig to play a lot of the posters in this thread. Would be an awesome learning experience! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Mort - ill definatly have a few games if you want, local time from 9pm is great (+10) had a blast last time, always welcome more people onto VASSAL! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Well, the sad truth is that BA aren't a competitive army. Don't get me wrong, they aren't Tyranids either, but BA aren't up and running with the top dogs - GK, SW and IG. And snubbing me off as an elitist GK player just doesn't change that :) Im not snobbing you, Im saying if you think the BA cant hang with the GKs then you arent building well balanced lists. BA cant count on out-assaulting a C:GK list. It wont happen reliably. Wich means that they need to bring more shooting to the table, and more mobility- both places they can outshine C:GK, and both areas that will act as force multipliers for their assault units against most lists. Sorry, but if you have to tailor a BA list to beat a SW/GK/IG all-comers list then that's a you problem not a Codex problem... I said reliably. Post something that you think will do well against all of the above :P ...and when you are done with this ulitmate BA list, this grand unified theory of the warhammer world, please make a sticky so that none of us will have to struggle against a good opponent with a good list ever again. ok? Ok. How about a balanced list that can handle anything those three codices will throw at you without any gimmicks? It wont gaurantee a win, but youll have as good a chance as they do. Librarian- Jump Pack, Blood Lance, Shield of Sanguinius- 125pts. Furioso Dreadnaught- 2x Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor, Drop Pod- 195pts. 10 Tacticals- Plasmagun, Missile Launcher- 180pts. 10 Assault Marines- 2x Meltagun, Powerweapon- 225pts 10 Assault Marines- 2x Plasmagun, Powerweapon- 235pts. Landspeeder- Typhoon- 90pts. Landspeeder- Typhoon- 90pts. Landspeeder- Typhoon- 90pts. Vindicator- Extar Armor- 160pts. Whirlwind- 90pts. That leaves 20pts left over for any favorite upgrades of yours I may have missed or if you want to switch weapon loadouts a little. Id take this against any list Ive seen from C:SW, C:IG, or C:GK in the last three years and reasonably expect to come out the other side as often as not. Possible altnerations to this base include dropping the furioso in favor of an Honor Gaurd with jump packs and a small smattering of your favorite toys, or one of the typhoons for a sanguinairy priest and a DP for the tactical squad- not that theyd use it most games, but the things are damn useful even empty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Just let me grab a bucket of popcorn and fetch a sixpack please :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spec.ops Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Excuse me for my lack of experience since this game has grown beyond my wallet size, but when taking on the "big three" I can't see how difficult it is for us. IG trouble us during deployment, but once we drop and pop their tanks its clean up time no? SW thrive on razor spam right; however, they are protected by wolf riders pushing us out farther and into prime range of all there guns. So, I can see them being difficult, but its more like a even match to me than an auto lose as they are made out to be. GK...can be a problem. Drago, Cortez, Crowe, Psyrifle Dreds, Death Cults, etc... Yeah...they hurt a lot! But, GK's fear IG and BA could care less about IG. lol Rock, paper, scissors anyone? (privateer press take my money please!) BA not competitive? Right. I used to play tau and win against some of the meanest armies out their till 5th rolled around. BA is no dark horse. They are broken. They are very competitive imo...but not GK broken thank goodness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 list Doesn't look like it has enough 'bite'. Mind giving an example of how you would play it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 K&F maybe thats your problem, your trying to outshoot TAU with blood angels.... BA strengths are mobility and close range, either shooting or fighting. If you cant accept that, you arent going to be "competitive", ever. You arent going to win tree felling tournaments if you insist a hammer is the right tool either. A blood angel assault squad cant beat a GK Termie squad. This isnt news. But a BA assault squad can out run said GKs, and if you do something fun, like 6x6 bolterback suggestion, you can overwhelm them in a turn, and then overwhelm another the next turn, and again, and again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 list Doesn't look like it has enough 'bite'. Mind giving an example of how you would play it? See, this is kind of what I was talking about. List biuilding is just one aspect of the hobby - and the most personal, too. Everyone has a "preferred" play-style. Wether it be in-your-face, castle-up-and-shoot, float-like-a-butterfly/sting-like-a-bee, or something entirely else. The list you wanted me to build would be unsuitable for you as our play-styles almost assuredly differs. Grey Mage posted a list (which is surprisingly close to one I considered posting anyway) he would feel comfortable with, and yet you look at it and claim it "lacks bite". Maybe Grey Mage doesn't "bite" his opponent, maybe he prefers nibbling. :P As I mentioned in my last post, list building is only the first hurdle to an effective army. Deployment, battle plan, execution, implrovisation, and mission objectives are also part of the total package. But here's the thing - an "uncompetative" Codex is one that does not provide the tools necessary to effectively perform it's intended function. The Tau Codex is not "uncompetative" because they have :wink::y melee options. That's an intentional factor built in to the Codex for balance. Tau are "uncompetative" because their bread and butter (shooting) has some serious deficiencies in the current iteration of the game. C:CSM is not "uncompetative" becuase they lack all the tools needed, but because those tools are both (generally) over-costed and underwhelming compared to the current crop of codexs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253440-ba-arent-competitive/page/3/#findComment-3076566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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