BA aren't competitive

[Brother Nathan]

my 2cents. outside of 40k i also play some cards games(magic yogioh etc) i dont play competitively, just for the craic(yes im from ireland that is not a swear..)every time a tourney is comming up, or new cards are released all you hear is omg new things so different to what weve played i dont know what to de how do i stop i cant beat it i need new stuff, etc. yet a few weeks later when said decks have lost suprise or people have seen the weakness they loose the fear factor and it just slots into play again. thus the card industry succesfully makes money with no problem.

back to 40k. to say i know a little is an understatement. but ba are not competative... yea right. sure they have now slipped out of flavour of the month which they were never going to hold for long but really. again think the shiny syndrom/ scary new ish thing. wolves got their thunder wolves a short while back and there has been therefore more talk etc about them cause thats an all round hard unit to kill(similar to palidens) last thing we got was the raven and well... yea... but anyway. angels are harder to play. as they should be. we are marines but with the speed/ cc twist. still marines. in play we are some what the eldar of the marine factions. but everyone learnt most of how to play eldar ages ago. my angels, whilst not the most competitive army in the store(there is a few rocks to my sicisors as it were) do pretty damm well. infact i havent yet lost once to greyknights. though i havent even lost with my nids either( im on 11 wins,and one draw with my nids) why because people forget to build to play nids and then when we meet they dot have the tools required(and i played twice against cortez with the nids and he was chewy...) but as for angels, yes model for odel theres are better, better this and better that... but i dont fire model at model. if you do you in trouble. speciall with the likes of draigo on the board...

 

course its harder for us to build a decent list that for the likes of the knights, actually its as hard for them to build a bad list as it is for us to make a good list. but when you ave us with a good list then i believe, from experience and reading that the odds are probably pretty fair if you dont do foolish things....

[Brother Captain Kezef]

my 2cents. outside of 40k i also play some cards games(magic yogioh etc) i dont play competitively, just for the craic(yes im from ireland that is not a swear..)every time a tourney is comming up, or new cards are released all you hear is omg new things so different to what weve played i dont know what to de how do i stop i cant beat it i need new stuff, etc. yet a few weeks later when said decks have lost suprise or people have seen the weakness they loose the fear factor and it just slots into play again. thus the card industry succesfully makes money with no problem.

back to 40k. to say i know a little is an understatement. but ba are not competative... yea right. sure they have now slipped out of flavour of the month which they were never going to hold for long but really. again think the shiny syndrom/ scary new ish thing. wolves got their thunder wolves a short while back and there has been therefore more talk etc about them cause thats an all round hard unit to kill(similar to palidens) last thing we got was the raven and well... yea... but anyway. angels are harder to play. as they should be. we are marines but with the speed/ cc twist. still marines. in play we are some what the eldar of the marine factions. but everyone learnt most of how to play eldar ages ago. my angels, whilst not the most competitive army in the store(there is a few rocks to my sicisors as it were) do pretty damm well. infact i havent yet lost once to greyknights. though i havent even lost with my nids either( im on 11 wins,and one draw with my nids) why because people forget to build to play nids and then when we meet they dot have the tools required(and i played twice against cortez with the nids and he was chewy...) but as for angels, yes model for odel theres are better, better this and better that... but i dont fire model at model. if you do you in trouble. speciall with the likes of draigo on the board...

 

course its harder for us to build a decent list that for the likes of the knights, actually its as hard for them to build a bad list as it is for us to make a good list. but when you ave us with a good list then i believe, from experience and reading that the odds are probably pretty fair if you dont do foolish things....

 

I hear ya

 

I've been kicking arse with my Angel deck since the Urza block

[Monolythic]

Is the argument against BA that we aren't a top 3 codex? Cause it's hard to argue against that assertion. If you did a power ranking of the current codices, we'd finish top 5 or 6 in with Crons and Orks behind the big 3. But we win. A lot. I haven't finished outside of the top 5 in my last 6 tourneys and won my last one. beating SW twice and GK once to go 3-0. When my Red stuff hits the table my opponent has to adapt to something unlike any other marine army.... and when his list is entirely unable to adjust because it's been finely honed to beat other IG/SW/GK, he invariably gets rolled. And we look good doing it. Cause red is sexy.

 

In my experience a good player will win with whatever he brings and sucky players will get owned no matter what they bring. Some codices can help a bad player finish 18th out of 25 instead of 23rd, but lets be honest, he's not going to give a good player any trouble no matter what he's bringing.

 

Bottom line, is that when I put my stuff on the table my opponent has a tingle of fear crawl across him because he has no idea how my list is going to play. He can't predict or fully know a hybrid Angles list unless he has one of his own that he's studied for the last 2 years since the dex came out. Conversely, I don't feel that fear or concern when GK or IG gets set up across from me... not even a little bit. Those players tend to have single track minds and Ive seen every variation of the list they're playing 100 times.

 

To sum up, are we the best codex on paper? No. Can we run with the ones that are and beat them as much as they beat us? Absolutely.

[Monolythic]

Also, I really want address very quickly this notion that some halberds are the end all be all of the 40k universe and that their existence render GK into an unstoppable assault force. and being as this is a BA forum I'm sure you guys have encountered that notion.

 

*SPOILER ATERT: MATH-HAMMER TO FOLLOW*

 

GK are just regular marines with nice toys. that means that they wound on only 25% of their total attacks (assuming hamerhand get hooded or isn't on the squad). So even if they have 6 Halberds in a 10 man squad that means they're only going to get 3 guys at intiative 6, before the other 7 assault marines and the sang priest tear them a new one. And the price per model ratio is way off. Best way to wax GK terms is up close.

 

I relish close combat with GK because the look on the other guys face when he loses combat and runs is hilarious. for whatever reason, players avoid combat with them and GK players are super used to being avoided and getting shoot psycannons all day. Their being assaulted on turn 2 shuts them up quickly.

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

Here's a quick snapshot from Rankings HQ which takes scores from 12 countries:

 

http://rankingshq.com/rankings/default.asp...nkingGroupId=48

 

GK 1st

Orks? 2nd

SW 3rd

BA 4th

IG 5th

 

I also think the "BA are not competitive" is bull.

[VAGABOND]

I'm gonna chip in here with my take on it. I think your missing one of the GK major weakness's and that's AV13, yeah sure they have Psycannons and S8 Autocannons but you need to be lucky to cause real damage to them. Yeah certain BA builds can shut down GK fairly easily and quickly.

 

Furioso Librarian Dreadnoughts, Predators and FNP give me the fear.

[Drunken Angel]

Also, I really want address very quickly this notion that some halberds are the end all be all of the 40k universe and that their existence render GK into an unstoppable assault force. and being as this is a BA forum I'm sure you guys have encountered that notion.

 

*SPOILER ATERT: MATH-HAMMER TO FOLLOW*

 

GK are just regular marines with nice toys. that means that they wound on only 25% of their total attacks (assuming hamerhand get hooded or isn't on the squad). So even if they have 6 Halberds in a 10 man squad that means they're only going to get 3 guys at intiative 6, before the other 7 assault marines and the sang priest tear them a new one. And the price per model ratio is way off. Best way to wax GK terms is up close.

 

I relish close combat with GK because the look on the other guys face when he loses combat and runs is hilarious. for whatever reason, players avoid combat with them and GK players are super used to being avoided and getting shoot psycannons all day. Their being assaulted on turn 2 shuts them up quickly.

 

 

Thanks for that nice comment exactly what I have found too.

[Seahawk]

BA are handily competitive. #1 codex? Not really, no, but they're still competitive.

[Dogstar34]

I registered just for this thread. A few points I would like to make:

 

1) Many of these posts are anecdotal. Just because you beat 3 kids in your local store doesn't mean you or your army is fantastic. Conversely, just because you saw a BA player get tabled doesn't mean the army is bad.

 

2) BA have plenty of tools available with which to make a strong list, but there are many factors to take into account that mitigate their flexibility - the metagame, terrain, the matchups, player skill, the mission, etc. There are two army builds that are widely recognized as being the 'best', Mechanized and DoA. Both have weaknesses and strengths, but neither can do everything and neither can move away from their own unique specializations and still retain their potency. GK/SW/IG can do a little (or a lot) of everything, and can build in redundancy to boot - so BA might need a little more smart play and less autopilot.

 

3) Saying BA are not competitive or cannot hang with GK/SW/IG is false. I've been playing BA a long, long time and have won plenty of tournament games, and at the 60 person+ bi-monthly tournaments at my FLGS I see plenty of BA lists getting theirs. I will offer my showing at the Bay Area Open (fantastic tournament by the way, I highly recommend it), 14th out of 92 overall with a 4W-2D-1L record. My wins were against Orks in game 2, a surprising Tau list that makes good use of a positional relay in game 3, a BT Terminator/Typhoon combo list in round 4 that at first looked like an auto-loss for all intents and purposes, and a 'typical' Grey Knights list in round 5. I drew against a mech DE list in game 1, with each of us almost tabling the other, and against another GK list in round 7. I lost to the eventual winner with a Hydra spam IG list in round 6, on table 1. My 1750 list was as follows:

 

Mephiston

2 Talon Furioso in DP

10 man RAS in DP with 2x melta and Pfist

5 man RAS in Razorback w/TLAC

5 man RAS in Razorback w/TLAC

2x Baal Pred, 1 Flamestorm 1 TLAC

3x Autolas Predators

 

Now I don't know how you all would qualify that, but in my opinion that's a lot of teeth. I squeezed as much shooty in as I could, and there aren't any leftover points to play with. I have mobility, the durability of massed AV13, maybe a psychological advantage of "what do I shoot at first" syndrome, and enough firepower to trade shots with *almost* any list (see: IG hydra spam). I don't use the 'traditional' BA strengths, no assaulters to speak of, no Priests, no devs, no Typhoons. Mephiston generally hangs back, guards the firebase, and counter charges, the Dreads and 10 man RAS drop into the enemy's backfield and cause as much damage as they can, and everything else holds midfield and unloads. In my games against the GK players I was never really in danger of losing but in game 7 I was drunk, played sloppy, and so ended up getting a draw (but had an absolute blast in the process). My game against the IG player....well, I gave it my all but it was spearhead deployment, there was no LOS blocking terrain, and his dice were en fuego - I gave it my best but sometimes losses happen. Had it been different deployment, or nightfight T1, or some rolls fell my way I could have stayed in it but triple Vendetta, 6 Hydra, 2 PBS was too much to absorb turn after turn. My point in all this? Don't tell me BA cannot compete. Tournament results matter and they tell us BA don't win as much as some other codexes, but the circumstances matter too - army list, matchup, mission and terrain - and what codex can say otherwise? Do we know how many GK/SW/IG lists enter as compared to BA? I don't have exact stats in front of me but I heard as much as a third of the total Bay Area Open field was Grey Knights - saturation counts to some extent. Hell, a Tyranid player at the Bay Area Open had a fantastic showing, losing only to the same IG player I did. You might say he is the best Tyranid player ever and maybe he is, but how well does his list match up against the prevailing metagame? How many people see Trygons pop up in their backfield and panic? There's a lot of people that are quick to say Tyranids are terrible, but is that really true or do the circumstances surrounding the game matter? Don't be so quick to pledge fealty to the internet's opinion, it's a crazy game and a lot can happen.

[Morticon]

Welcome! Thanks for the opinions! And thanks for registering with the BnC.

Hope to see you posting more

[spartan II]

Bottom line, is that when I put my stuff on the table my opponent has a tingle of fear crawl across him because he has no idea how my list is going to play. He can't predict or fully know a hybrid Angles list unless he has one of his own that he's studied for the last 2 years since the dex came out. Conversely, I don't feel that fear or concern when GK or IG gets set up across from me... not even a little bit. Those players tend to have single track minds and Ive seen every variation of the list they're playing 100 times.

 

To sum up, are we the best codex on paper? No. Can we run with the ones that are and beat them as much as they beat us? Absolutely.

 

im absolutely getting youre point but you havent seen evey ig list till you played against someone who doesnt use chimera's or even somethimes goes as far as not as feelding vehicles all together yes i did it at a tournement it worked lolzzz

 

anyway everybody that knows me a bit seems to hate me saying lazershow or in 1000 pt in only took 2 blobs wich means there are over 120 guardsmen on the table and a leman never lost to a blood angel because they are either vehicle demendend or assualt dependend and i have the numbers to kick back and shoot hammer them up

 

btw sq size is 51 men stuborn on ld9 with 18pw attacks xp

 

then i started playing angels and made once or twice that combo now my gaming comunity forbids me out of tournies xc

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

I think it's obvious that the BA can hold their own and are for sure in te top third. They are easy to understand and get the most out of fairly quickly but the GK is even easier and being a condensed force there isn't as many moving parts to go wrong which is great in such a random setting. When you are relying on drop pods eyc it makes it hard to consistently win

[Leksington]

Proposed problem:

What if BA continue to match up poorly with GK in 6th edition?

 

The Lemma:

BA don't match up well against GK. Right now the national tournament circuit is saturated with GK armies. In my eyes, this makes fielding a BA force in a national tournament a worse than average prospect. (I am not interested in your local meta anecdotes or regional results. Nor do I care about success prior to the rise of the new GK codex)

 

 

The Theorum:

Chaos Space Marines will return BA to their competitive glory! :) (and you think I'm kidding)

 

Enter CSM with their new (rumored) Special Rule: Suffer the Witch.

-Every CSM unit can negate a psychic power on a roll of a 6... and that 6 can be buffed.

 

If Chaos Space Marines can be the appropriate foil for the Grey Knights (and BA don't struggle with CSM), then it will thin the GK herd. A thinned GK herd will return the BA codex to their competitive glory!

 

 

The proof is left up the the reader as an exercise. :P

[Deschenus Maximus]

The Lemma:

BA don't match up well against GK.

 

I don't agree with such a blanket statement. "Some BA lists don't match up well against some GK builds" is much more accurate.

[Leksington]

The Lemma:

BA don't match up well against GK.

 

I don't agree with such a blanket statement. "Some BA lists don't match up well against some GK builds" is much more accurate.

Your disagreement is inconsequential since the premise of the post was "What if BA continue to struggle against GK in 6th." :rolleyes:

 

If it tickles your fancy, you can even remove the 'continue to' part. I'd be a-ok with that sort of amendment.

[Morticon]

Interesting points about Chaos - and im hoping they will balance GK out a little. But even still..

 

Im more curious about this though:

 

BA don't match up well against GK.

 

You need to consider refining this position a bit because,

Its factually incorrect as it stands.

(For the same reasons I corrected Heretic with. )

Saying as a blanket statement that BA dont match up well against GK is based in a host of assumptions and supposition.

You need a lot more clarification in what you're saying.

eg: If you had said: The top tournament builds of GK are beating the top tournament builds of BA, you'd have more of a leg to stand on - but then youd need to define both of those terms too.

If you had gone further to say GK can make an all comers list that can deal with more threats than BA can - then Id totally be behind you - but you haven't.

 

 

Then the other problematic issue:

 

The Lemma (I am not interested in your local meta anecdotes or regional results. Nor do I care about success prior to the rise of the new GK codex)

 

Where are you from Leks?

 

I'm assuming the USA?

If so, don't you think the quote above is incredibly Ameri-centric or even Ameri-normative and therefore a touch arrogant?

It implies that you dont care what the rest of the world is doing or what the data is.

Are you saying the only competitions worth anything are US ones?

You don't care how tournaments and success rates are in other countries other than your own?

 

Because BA were at the #2 spot nation wide here until very, very recently (last 2 months).

 

 

 

Taking high level comps like Nova and Adept as your basis for stats where GTW (gaming to win) gamers participate and where the strongest, most competitive and hardcore gamers are using what they feel is the best dex is hardly accurate or telling of anything other than a perceived meta for a type of competition -not a region and definitely not a country. Especially not one as big as the States (of which I've only gamed in tournies there twice and only 40ked it up in 5 different States).

 

Also, every tournament like that, you have a certain percentage of GTW players that play the latest or perceived most powerful dex. Those players take away from the player factor of the older dexs. ie: They could potentially do just as well with an older Dex (like BA) but they choose to go for what they feel is a dex that can handle more match ups effectively (Which I believe GK and SW can do better than BA). The majority of what's left playing the older dexs usually comprises of fluff players, recently converted players or the older loyalty-based players.

[Shmoe]

how rude to say his comment is Ameri-centric (or even Ameri- normative) in such a way. As if arrogance is only an American quality. As someone who has been the world over I can tell you it is not the case and I have found other nations much much worse at times. But I am not here to argue this.

 

And this is why, his comment lead to one thing... Morticon's Response and my interpretation.

(guess that is two things :P)

 

If I gathered correctly- Morticon says that the huge tournaments that are played by GTW players are comprised of those who want every advantage they can have. So they play Grey Knights mostly and therefor Grey Knights mostly win these tournaments? If this is right then there is a problem.

 

First off, I wont play players who care so much about winning that they make the game suck. You all know the kind... the ones that look for every loop hole, the ones that build purely Min/Max lists, the ones that ignore the whole thing about good sportsmanship. They are the root problem of anything that is bad in the WarHammer community and every other gaming community. I wont play with them UNLESS I have to sit across from them at a tournament.

 

I was in Afghanistan and the Army kept away from the game almost all of 5th edition... so I really have an unbiased view unless we are talking about 4th edition Imperial Guard who has been the best army to every grace the battlefield in my opinion :). What I am gathering from this thread is that Grey Knights are not what they used to be and in fact much more powerful. They have the ability to build exceptionally well rounded armies while having very powerful units and toys incorporated into them. In fact, supposedly, according to this thread almost everyone on this thread believes the Grey Knights do this better then every other codex. AND that is why the GTW players choose Grey Knights right now. It is the codex of choice for people who only care about winning...

 

Maybe that is why Leksingon said it doesnt matter about Meta or Local tourny's. He wanted to examine the Big Ones and look at why Grey Knights are so popular and to say this... put a grey knight and a blood angel in a room together, 9 times out of 10 the Grey Knight is the one that walks out the door.

If you put a balanced Grey Knight list and a balanced Blood Angel List against each other with two equally skilled and devious players... who wins? These two players are so evenly matched that they might as well be the same person. Apparently the GTW players say Grey Knights. That is why it is important on this issue not to too just look at local victories... You have to look at tournaments that are on a global scale where people from all over the world come to play.

 

That's is our problem as Blood Angel players to deal with and come together to beat. Why... because any army can beat any other army. I was really hoping to get more examples on how Blood Angel players dealt with certain problems they faced with other codices and a discussion on why weren't considered so competitive. In two months I take my first Blood Angels army on to the field in Germany and have been wondering about the scene and who my competitors would be and how to handle them.... but most of this thread is about ego.

 

Have a good day all, back to painting my new army

[Mezkh]

Everyone knows it's possible to build a BA army to hard-counter GK right?

[Shmoe]

this is not about creating lists

[Mezkh]

this is not about creating lists

 

It can't not be. Putting down an army that works is the crux of competitive 40k. Unlike say, Warmahordes, list creation is a huge deal.

[Emperors Immortals]

how rude to say his comment is Ameri-centric (or even Ameri- normative) in such a way. As if arrogance is only an American quality. As someone who has been the world over I can tell you it is not the case and I have found other nations much much worse at times. But I am not here to argue this.

 

 

Then why say it? Because the comment certainly did not imply its only an American quality, and as someone who has travelled extensivly for many years i ca assure you it is a commonly held belief.

 

I think personally, that only Morticon has proved that BA are, in fact competitive on a national level due to statistics from a number of years that show BA can win, and win well. Read his battle reports and tacticas before responding, because all the tools youll need are right there.Especially his ideas on unit efficieny, which works diferent to any other 40k army out there.

 

With very few exceptions on here, none of have played in, little lone won, anythign like a national competition. Its all therefore armchair generalship, even with the stats that have been posted.

 

A great point was the question on how many BA armies are in any given comp proportionate to the total player pool - basic statistics will tell us that numbers matter, its why statistics are so difficult to read or utilise effectivly and why horde armies work at all.

[Grey Mage]

Actually umm... didnt morticon end up placing in the top 8 at a national tournament last year?

[the jeske]

yes .

I think personally, that only Morticon has proved that BA are, in fact competitive on a national level due to statistics from a number of years that show BA can win, and win well.

ask him about his GK match ups . specialy those draigo wing games.

 

 

Again the fac that 1 BA army makes it on to top tables only means that A BA dex is not a crap[no one is saying that] B there are good players picking up the army [again no one is arguing that] . C but when you look at how GK place higher [and before someone says "but they are fresh and shiny" I will point out SW too] both in numbers and in wins , you cant argue that the BA codex is not as good as the GK one. now per se that aint bad [again having a bad match up against an army that is not widly played isnt much of a problem] , but top BAs have a huge problem with being hard to play . An army can be good or it can be hard to play , it cant be good hard to play when you have a random factor in it . To make a MtG example here [someone else used those before]. the BAs are a single control deck without tutors for extra draw . The are very much like 2ed eldar right now . you single units that have to do the job and any random fluke [suddenly runing away , two melts dont pop something . mefo/libby dies too fast etc] can make the army fall apart [when playing against those simple lists] . As other builds go DoA was never a viable tournament list and BA razor spam [not a hybrid] was all nice and good till necron and GK came and became unstunable , that +the fact that IG is still a horror match up for any non GK gunline make a pure razor BA build not good enough .

 

now does that mean that BAs are a bad codex ? of course not . anything that can build more then one army is good. But compatitive[aka the codex you pick first to get a good list] ? nah not the BA . IG/SW/GK yes .

[Shmoe]

This thread is not about how great the Blood Angels are.... look at for what it could be! Examine the weaknesses. Ask the questions on why do other people look down at OUR codex. And I do say OUR because I am going to take this army and kick the living crap out of anyone who stands on the other side of the table against me.

 

Just because someone comes and says your codex isn't as good as someone else's doesn't mean they are trash talking about you. It means it is time for some introspection.

 

And yes... I have read Morticons FAQs and strategies... they are good and he has given me some insight. BUT the purpose of coming to this site isnt to listen to the gospel of Morticon. It is to listen and talk to a community. So I am simply saying that if all you have to say is something negative... dont say it. Instead, share your experience so that we can provide cold hard facts to our brothers. Some have done so. Even proven that the big 3 aren't so BIG. If you aren't open to actually discusing the problem then I am in the wrong place.

 

Morticon, didnt mean to name drop in this post like that. no offense meant.

[Morticon]

how rude to say his comment is Ameri-centric (or even Ameri- normative) in such a way. As if arrogance is only an American quality. As someone who has been the world over I can tell you it is not the case and I have found other nations much much worse at times. But I am not here to argue this.

 

Not sure if you understood my comment, matey.

 

Leks said he doesnt care about other regional results or other "anecdotal" evidence.

This implies that the only evidence he feels is worth while is the national results of where he is from - (since I have referenced national results of other countries contrary to his belief).

 

Therefore IF he is from America - his view is Ameri-centric. If he is from Australia is would be Australi-centric etc etc.

 

I wasnt alluding to the "Ameri" part being arrogant- but the "centric" and "normative" parts being arrogant.

 

Actually umm... didnt morticon end up placing in the top 8 at a national tournament last year?

 

Sept last year - played for first place, lost the last game (to IG) and dropped to 4th I think.

 

 

yes .

I think personally, that only Morticon has proved that BA are, in fact competitive on a national level due to statistics from a number of years that show BA can win, and win well.

ask him about his GK match ups . specialy those draigo wing games.

 

 

 

Def. struggle with Draigo wing. In tourney play ive had D-Wing twice, and drawn once, and lost once.

Played other GK lists 4/5 other times at Regional(state)/national level and have won all of the other times.

 

Morticon, didnt mean to name drop in this post like that. no offense meant.

 

None taken at all matey!