BA aren't competitive

[Morticon]

t. BUT the purpose of coming to this site isnt to listen to the gospel of Morticon. It is to listen and talk to a community.

 

 

And I'd like to +1 this! ^

 

No one voice should ever devolve into being the utmost authority on anything. The community needs to question and challenge ideas in order to grow. Once it starts into sheep mode we lose traction, hunger and our edge!

 

I'm just a lil more vocal in this thread because I'm taking issue with the language used more than the concepts people are trying to espouse.

 

Again the fact that 1 BA army makes it on to top tables only means that A BA dex is not a crap[no one is saying that] B there are good players picking up the army [again no one is arguing that] . C but when you look at how GK place higher [and before someone says "but they are fresh and shiny" I will point out SW too] both in numbers and in wins , you cant argue that the BA codex is not as good as the GK one. now per se that aint bad [again having a bad match up against an army that is not widly played isnt much of a problem] , but top BAs have a huge problem with being hard to play . An army can be good or it can be hard to play , it cant be good hard to play when you have a random factor in it . To make a MtG example here [someone else used those before]. the BAs are a single control deck without tutors for extra draw . The are very much like 2ed eldar right now . you single units that have to do the job and any random fluke [suddenly runing away , two melts dont pop something . mefo/libby dies too fast etc] can make the army fall apart [when playing against those simple lists] .

 

 

Jeske's first line here highlights what is being said from my side for the most part.

[Morticon]

To me, this thread deals with these points and is structured in the following way:

 

 

1. The OPs original stated View:

 

"BA are not competitive"

 

As noted in Post 8 this is not true by reason of " Falsifiability" (ie: showing one event where BA are competitive disproves the initial statement).

 

 

2. The OPs Intended/Implied/Explained View:

 

"BA are not as competitive as IG/SW/GK in certain conditions" (the implied conditions being overall tournament play)

 

This is a much better statement and explanation than the first statement as it defines some conditions of the terminology used.

Personally, I still take issue with the use of "competitive" because that hasn't been defined. And as above if you can show where BA are competitive you "disprove" the statement.

 

 

3. What I think the OP is saying (Or think the OP "should(?)" have said) :

 

"The BA dex does not lend itself as easily to designing a tournament winning all-comers list as SW, IG and GK."

 

I am FULLY behind that, and that cannot be disproved by one or two showings at regional or national level anywhere.

Again, its about the language employed. Its not saying BA are not competitive. Its not saying BA are "worse"- a normative claim that would require loads of explanation. It's saying that they are not as easy as the other three to "game" (from list design to play).

 

Ive found that to be the case time and time again.

It's why I like to know the meta of an area or tournament when building a list. The overall meta of Adepticon (for example) was very different from the regional and national meta of SA - which is part in parcel of why I did so badly there last year (47 out of 256 I think). BA player Gagan Thable (Gaganius on here) came top 8 then- knowing what to expect more I feel.

[Emperors Immortals]

This thread is not about how great the Blood Angels are.... look at for what it could be!

Just because someone comes and says your codex isn't as good as someone else's doesn't mean they are trash talking about you. It means it is time for some introspection.

 

And yes... I have read Morticons FAQs and strategies... they are good and he has given me some insight. BUT the purpose of coming to this site isnt to listen to the gospel of Morticon. It is to listen and talk to a community. So I am simply saying that if all you have to say is something negative... dont say it. Instead, share your experience so that we can provide cold hard facts to our brothers. Some have done so. Even proven that the big 3 aren't so BIG. If you aren't open to actually discusing the problem then I am in the wrong place.

 

I agree, the efficiency tactica was referenced because i feel it was quite a good allround example of BA's competitive problems and strenghts, and as you can see it is a community effort, not just one mans opinion.

 

@jeske - you are right, the BA codex is competitive - but needs more finese to play (cant think of a word without any negative connotations here) then SW/GK/IG as it lacks a all comers list that smashes everything. Having said that my 2nd ed Eldars were an absolute blast to play with, exodites, harlequins and jet bikes - oh my!

 

@Morticon - didnt mean to get you mentioned sorry, and i do agree with this fully

 

3. What I think the OP is saying (Or think the OP "should(?)" have said) :

 

"The BA dex does not lend itself as easily to designing a tournament winning all-comers list as SW, IG and GK."

 

I am FULLY behind that, and that cannot be disproved by one or two showings at regional or national level anywhere.

Again, its about the language employed. Its not saying BA are not competitive. Its not saying BA are "worse"- a normative claim that would require loads of explanation. It's saying that they are not as easy as the other three to "game" (from list design to play)

 

Having said all that, i think BA's main strength is its versatility - we have 2 or 3 main lists and many, many variations on it. Thats why i run my csm as BA (WE for teh kill).

[Leksington]

Leks said he doesnt care about other regional results or other "anecdotal" evidence.

This implies that the only evidence he feels is worth while is the national results of where he is from - (since I have referenced national results of other countries contrary to his belief).

You've completely lost me and I have no earthly idea how you could have come to such a ridiculous conclusion.

 

Not caring about regional and anecdotal evidence quite literally means not caring about stories from your FLGS store and the tournaments in your immediate region. It means that I am only interested in National and International tournament results. National is certainly not restricted to US national tournaments.

 

You've boggled my mind. I can not fathom how your reached the conclusion you did.

[SamaNagol]

BA are competitive. They aren't top tier though.

 

But then neither are IG. SW and GK are most definitely top tier.

 

SW and GK are VERY effective in the shooting and assault phases of the game, and adequate in movement. And they do it for cheap. The points breaks they get on basic spammable units is why they are top tier. Razorback squads and ranged fire support is superior for both SW and GK compared to other lists. And GK get access to dirt cheap assault units which can take out nearly anything in the game (DCA) whilst SW get INCREDIBLY mobile and very survivable assault units in TWC.

 

All the BA toys are just a bit too expensive to be top tier, and their best toy Mephiston dies horribly vs GK.

[Morticon]

(I am not interested in your local meta anecdotes or regional results. Nor do I care about success prior to the rise of the new GK codex)

 

 

You've boggled my mind. I can not fathom how your reached the conclusion you did.

 

 

As above.

 

National is certainly not restricted to US national tournaments.

 

I figured you had implied otherwise since I had shown national results where BA did very well. If that wasn't the implication and you just missed that other bit then entirely my bad.

[Deschenus Maximus]

BA are competitive. They aren't top tier though.

 

But then neither are IG. SW and GK are most definitely top tier.

 

SW and GK are VERY effective in the shooting and assault phases of the game,

 

BA aren't as good in the shooting phase, but are better in the assault phase, short of specific lists (Crowe lists, DCA heavy Coteaz lists, T-Wolves heavy SW), but those have other weaknesses to be exploited.

 

and adequate in movement.

 

Where we are the best, short of Eldar and Deldar.

 

And they do it for cheap. The points breaks they get on basic spammable units is why they are top tier.

 

Hmm?

5 Hunters with meltagun in a plasmaback = 155 pts

5 Knights with psycannon in a psyback = 160 pts

5 ASM with meltagun in assback or plasmaback = 165 pts

 

So is the 5 extra points per unit over the Knights squad make us not top tier?

 

Razorback squads and ranged fire support is superior for both SW and GK compared to other lists.

 

 

It's hard to beat Psydreads and Fangs for firesupport, but I'd take one of our Razor squad over either of them.

 

And GK get access to dirt cheap assault units which can take out nearly anything in the game (DCA)

 

 

Limited access unless you take Coteaz, at which point you are giving up on some of the other Knights strengths, and DCA can be mitigated by simply standing in cover.

 

whilst SW get INCREDIBLY mobile and very survivable assault units in TWC.

 

Expensive to get more than a token squad.

 

All the BA toys are just a bit too expensive to be top tier, and their best toy Mephiston dies horribly vs GK.

 

To be really competitive with BA, you have to drop the concept of toys entirely from your list. Cheap libby, Priests, Assault Squads, Speeders/Attack Bikes and Devs/Autolas preds. Bob`s your uncle.

[Leksington]

I figured you had implied otherwise since I had shown national results where BA did very well. If that wasn't the implication and you just missed that other bit then entirely my bad.

My post was at its core a "what if" about Chaos Space Marines and their effect on 6th edition meta, and you read it as rant about american superiority directed entirely at you and a particular tournament result you posted. I assure you that not a single thing in there was directed at you.

 

I wonder if you might need to take a step back and ask yourself if you are taking this whole topic way too personally. It doesn't seem like you to so callously throw wild and unsubstantiated insults at people.

[Morticon]

I figured you had implied otherwise since I had shown national results where BA did very well. If that wasn't the implication and you just missed that other bit then entirely my bad.

My post was at its core a "what if" about Chaos Space Marines and their effect on 6th edition meta, and you read it as rant about american superiority directed entirely at you and a particular tournament result you posted. I assure you that not a single thing in there was directed at you.

 

I wonder if you might need to take a step back and ask yourself if you are taking this whole topic way too personally. It doesn't seem like you to so callously throw wild and unsubstantiated insults at people.

 

Dude- huge apologies- a couple of points here to clarify...

 

* I didn't feel anything was directed at me at all. It's got nothing to do with me. I really didn't take offence to anything said by you in that (or by anyone else for that matter)

 

* The post had nothing to do with American superiority (as explained to Schmoe) and nothing to do with being American. The comment was about the concept of centricism or normativism issues I had with your statement. If you were from any other country and that country was stated in your profile, that country would have formed the prefix of the "centric" or "normative". And it definitely wasn't a rant.

 

*I thought you were dismissing the track record of BA players that weren't at a national level (and since I had mentioned they were doing okay nationally here, I thought you were dismissing national results not in your country when you said this:

(I am not interested in your local meta anecdotes or regional results. Nor do I care about success prior to the rise of the new GK codex)

 

That add on was used by you to essentially disqualify any poster who would disagree with your thesis that:

 

BA don't match up well against GK. Right now the national tournament circuit is saturated with GK armies. In my eyes, this makes fielding a BA force in a national tournament a worse than average prospect. (I am not interested in your local meta anecdotes or regional results. Nor do I care about success prior to the rise of the new GK codex)

 

* The intention wasn't to throw an insult at you at all (so apologies that it came off that way). The intention of my post was to highlight how in your post you seemed to discard those details saying you dont care what the regional results are.

 

That to me was odd. I realise you were talking about 6th ed and chaos, but in talking about something different you based it off of the "Dilemma" that BA dont match up well and didnt wanna hear evidence to the contrary.

 

While I do see where you are coming from, and huge apologies for the offence taken, do you understand why exception has been taken to what you've written?

[the jeske]

So is the 5 extra points per unit over the Knights squad make us not top tier?

that depands because at least at 1500 pts it means you are left with[no pun intended] left over points . at least If you try to play stright up razor spam . also the GK razor is generaly unstunable so in a shoty fight it is worth twice the points of a BA rhino [+the psy has longer range] .

 

 

It's hard to beat Psydreads and Fangs for firesupport, but I'd take one of our Razor squad over either of them.

over 3/2 Rl/las or 4 twin str 8 auto shots which are hard to stun ? again this is a question of points and efficiency . BA razor squads do not work alone enough as a single unit [not that they are bad . just that GK ones are better] , this means they need support units[duh of course almost all armies need that] , but when they face an army that requires both the RAS and BA support units to do double time [because being unstunable . not needing counter units , so have more pts for support units or for plain more shoting], then their opponents have it easier . of course that can be mitigated by class of player , rolls[although in some cases GK kind of a ignore everything but the most abysal of rolls] or scenarios played . That is the problem with BAs and that is why [well not just because of that] they are not among the top 3 .

 

To be really competitive with BA, you have to drop the concept of toys entirely from your list. Cheap libby, Priests, Assault Squads, Speeders/Attack Bikes and Devs/Autolas preds. Bob`s your uncle.

but that is how every non death star army out of every codex works .For BAs the problem is that the cheap builds of GK out perform most of their builds [being cheaper for the efficiency they give mostly] , while at the same time their Deathstar build[what more or less draigo wing is] are a huge problem because destroying them with shoting is not easy , out hth them is not possible [unless the BA somehow charge them with their whole army] and in kill points it is probably as close to auto lose as possible .

 

 

But again we are not specific enough we should be talking about actual tournament lists even if those were just gold fish test builds and divide it by how many points are played . For example I dont think many will claim that there are more compatitive builds in 1k or under then cortez builds ? the game at 1500 at at 2k or more looks totaly different . at 2k or more there is no draigo wing , with this match up gone things change for BA . but at 1500 there is tons of draigowings [when tons=enough to have a good chance to play against one] and BA are down. IG power at 1500 is ok , at 1750 they kind of get a lot weaker to get back at 2k or more . DE and necron are different armies when faced at 1500 and 2k/2k+ [and I dont mean the builds , I mean the power of the armies] .

 

To keep the topic more on track we should post some lists else we end up in a loop of theoretical void , where everything counters everything and everyone has seen his build top all other builds .

[W Johnson SSG USAR]

Hey guys,

 

Sorry to insert my 2 cents (comming from a newbie on here) but theres a few points I feel I need to make

 

1) "Competitive"

- Before we go any farther, I must point out that no one has defiend what is meant by competitive. If the definition of compettive is a perfect record , we've all missed the point of this game....

 

- To call ANY army non competive is unjustified. Sure you can present the evidence to the contray, but that evidence will only ever take into account REPORTED stats. Therefore your evidence will always be flawed.

 

2) BA codex against so called "Top Tier" armies

- No matter how powerful, "competitive" or OP any book,army,FAQ,etc. seems, it is ALWAYS competive in some way, otherwise GW would not release it. If you choose to not use a "under devolped" dex against these armies, thats your choice. However , to deem it unfit for play against those same armies becuase you yourself have not had any success with it, is complete BS

 

3) the ability of Blood Angels to table the opponent

- As a Blood angels players, myself, I'm not going to say that there is nothing that drops on the other side of the table that I am not at least concernedabout. History states that the cocky general that overestimates his own force, typically is cut down in a bloody mess (Napeloen at waterloo, Lee at Gettysburg, etc.)

[Morticon]

Hey guys,

 

Sorry to insert my 2 cents (comming from a newbie on here) but theres a few points I feel I need to make

 

All well constructed thoughts welcome, mate!

Welcome to the BnC BA forums!

[Deschenus Maximus]

that depands because at least at 1500 pts it means you are left with[no pun intended] left over points . at least If you try to play stright up razor spam.

 

Well I don't think straight up razorspam is the way to go anyways. It's not awful, but it opens you up to more bad matchup then if you go for a more rounded force.

 

also the GK razor is generaly unstunable so in a shoty fight it is worth twice the points of a BA rhino [+the psy has longer range] .

 

It is more than 3 times the cost of a BA rhino selected for an ASM, actually (15 vs 50 pts).

 

 

 

over 3/2 Rl/las or 4 twin str 8 auto shots which are hard to stun ?

 

Sorry, that was all screwed up. What I meant to say is that I would pick a BA razor squad over either SW or GK razor squads.

 

but that is how every non death star army out of every codex works.

 

Well you were the one suggesting that our toys were not cost effective.

 

For BAs the problem is that the cheap builds of GK out perform most of their builds [being cheaper for the efficiency they give mostly]

 

You are going to have to be more precise about what you mean here.

 

while at the same time their Deathstar build[what more or less draigo wing is] are a huge problem because destroying them with shoting is not easy , out hth them is not possible [unless the BA somehow charge them with their whole army] and in kill points it is probably as close to auto lose as possible .

 

Perhaps, but we kick all kinds of ass out of Draigowing in objective scenarios, so I'm ok with that.

[the jeske]

Well I don't think straight up razorspam is the way to go anyways. It's not awful, but it opens you up to more bad matchup then if you go for a more rounded force.

neither do I . but if not a razor spam , then what ? a hybrid list and that is both harder to play[random effect , single unit for one job etc this was all mentioned before] and isnt more efficient .

again we are talking in a void here. the problem for BA list is that a GK razor build out shots it and is hard/very hard to auto assault . that is the problem efficiency . And the fact that GK are not the only army in existance out there [or to be more precise cortez/puri razor builds] . Sure a BA player could meta other razor builds harder but that would not help him against deathstars [both the SW twc build and the a lot more popular/widly played draigo list] or necron or d.eldar .

Again am not saying that BA make bad lists[well maybe DoA , but am not here to argue that] , but that there is too much problems with playing BAs . A GK players asks himself two things . Did I roll above avarge or just avarge and Am I playing a necron puls build . A GK player can realy go auto pilot[a bit like IG at 2k+ could in mystic times] , a BA player can not . This is important for all levels of game play . Because if two dudes just started to play and one has an army that is hard to play and good and the other one has a very good and easy to play one . the second one has more chance to win. The same happens on higher level . Why is mort and many other BA players using corbs ? to avoid the random effects. GK ignore random . SW GK have totems which should cost like 30 pts or more for what they do . that is the problem with BA . IG on the other hand are in the big 3 because A crud made a lot of stuff undercosted and I mean like realy undercosted and gave them too much bs 4 which kind of a removed the random factor IG list always had[just shoty army that hits 50/50 sometimes its awesome sometimes its crap].

 

 

Perhaps, but we kick all kinds of ass out of Draigowing in objective scenarios, so I'm ok with that.

that is true . but considering there is more GK players at most tournaments then BAs ones and that this means the chance to face a Draigo is bigger then the chance to play against BAs. BAs have a higher chance to end up with draigo wings in KP missions. And that makes you not win tournaments. For casual/no tournament gaming this means you "ust" lose 1/3 of all games against draigos [and the kicking but in objectives isnt so sure they can kong like few other armies]. But again am not saying that this makes BAs unplayable or that people should switch armies . no. Am just saying that they arent good . where for me the normal/good power level is GK dex.

[Drunken Angel]

I have been reading and following what people are saying and it is all good and very useful. I find Jeskes posts extremely insightful and good thank you. The above pretty much is a good summary I will however still play all jump packers and fast non-tank hybrids its too much fun not to.

[Mezkh]

Draigo wing is old hat. It has been done over and found to be non-competitive. I wouldn't indulge it in meta considerations any more than I would, for example, Tau, because no one plays it at the top tables.

[Deschenus Maximus]

neither do I . but if not a razor spam , then what ? a hybrid list and that is both harder to play[random effect , single unit for one job etc this was all mentioned before] and isnt more efficient .

 

No no, not hybrid. Mech, but not just Razorbacks. I use Razors to carry my troops, but I have other stuff to provide firesupport.

 

again we are talking in a void here. the problem for BA list is that a GK razor build out shots it and is hard/very hard to auto assault .

 

What do you mean by "auto-assault"?

 

that is the problem efficiency . And the fact that GK are not the only army in existance out there [or to be more precise cortez/puri razor builds] . Sure a BA player could meta other razor builds harder but that would not help him against deathstars [both the SW twc build and the a lot more popular/widly played draigo list] or necron or d.eldar .

 

Deldar are not really scary to me. Poisoned weapons mostly bounce off thanks to Priests, and Lance spam is not any scarier that Long Fangs in practice, unless you play Land Raier spam… which is bad anyways, so meh. Necrons I find equally unconcerning. There high AV tanks die just as easily to melta as any other tank, and once they are on foot, they get mauled by our CC. Draigowing we’ve already discussed, and I am confident that with CSM and DA coming up, this is a list we will be seeing less and less of. T-Wolves are mean to jump BA, but I would rather fight a T-wolf list with my Mech BA than a more standard shooty SW list.

 

Again am not saying that BA make bad lists[well maybe DoA , but am not here to argue that] , but that there is too much problems with playing BAs . A GK players asks himself two things . Did I roll above avarge or just avarge and Am I playing a necron puls build . A GK player can realy go auto pilot[a bit like IG at 2k+ could in mystic times] , a BA player can not .

 

See, I really take issue with that. A Knight player who goes on autopilot will lose. Its is certainly a good army, but to say it plays itself is absurd.

 

Why is mort and many other BA players using corbs ? to avoid the random effects. GK ignore random .

 

No they don’t. Their main source of anti-tank outside of psydreads is psycannons – entirely random when dealing with high AV or trying to rend down MEQ.

 

SW GK have totems which should cost like 30 pts or more for what they do .

 

Totems?

 

that is the problem with BA . IG on the other hand are in the big 3 because A crud made a lot of stuff undercosted and I mean like realy undercosted and gave them too much bs 4 which kind of a removed the random factor IG list always had[just shoty army that hits 50/50 sometimes its awesome sometimes its crap].

 

I think it has more to do with the Chimera being too good then anything else. Who wouldn’t want a 55 pts AV12 front vehicle with a 36” S6 gun and 5 firepoints? Too good, imo.

 

that is true . but considering there is more GK players at most tournaments then BAs ones and that this means the chance to face a Draigo is bigger then the chance to play against BAs. BAs have a higher chance to end up with draigo wings in KP missions. And that makes you not win tournaments.

 

Well I think in that instance, singling out BA is a mistake – I’d say almost all lists will struggle vs Draigowing in KP missions.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Out of curiosity, for those that say BA aren't competitive/top tier, how would you rate the armies of 40k, from best to worst?

 

Black Templars

Blood Angels

Chaos Daemons

Chaos Space Marines

Dark Angels

Dark Eldar

Eldar

Grey Knights

Imperial Guard

Necrons

Orks

Sisters of Battle

Space Marines

Space Wolves

Tau

Tyranids

[SamaNagol]

BA need unit synergy, and need support units to multiply that synergy into a greater force exerted in a given area of the battlefield.

 

The strength of GK and SW is that they rely less on units working together to force multiply. Their units are as effective as stand alones as they are when used with multipliers.

 

The BA strength is superior mobility and the ability to use that mobility to place force multipliers in concentrated areas of the field where those bonuses conferred are better than the points paid. Using a Priest to boost a 5 man RAS squad is not worth the 65 pts you pay for him, but using him to boost 3 of them at once certainly is.

 

The problem comes from the need to play so very well, and to not have things go wrong to be able to exert those forces.

 

Whilst FAST Auto/Las Preds and Melta Attack Bikes are great they aren't better than practically unstunnable Psyfleman Dreads or Long Fangs. It's tough work.

 

BA are most definitely competitive but what makes an army top tier for competitive play is the ability to still win in the face of bad rolls, unfavourable deployment or one bad decision. I don't believe a the traditional Libby/Corbulo/MeltaBikes/Preds & Razorspam list can do that as well as GK and SW can.

 

I do like Furiosos in drop pods for GK and SW match ups though. They do nicely in the backfield.

[Deschenus Maximus]

@SamaNagol:

 

I don't understand why you feel we are more prone to bad luck/deployments/decisions. FnP does wonders to remedy bad armour save rolls, Fast vehicles allow us to correct unfortunate deployment circumstances with a degree of ease, we have Shield of Sanguinius that allows us to be more casual with vehicle placement, and you can throw in Corbulo for extra safety... really, I feel we have more safety nets built in than most.

 

I also don't buy that we need to play better and have everything go our way to compete. With properly built redundancy in your list, neither of those things are any more critical for us than they are for Knights or Wolves.

 

The psydread is insanely good, that is true. Still it is easier to destroy (not supress) than the autolas pred, and is a lot less mobile. And if I had a choice between Fangs and Fast autolas preds, I would go with the preds in Mech lists I think. Being static and unable to absorb losses whatsoever are real weakness of the Fangs that too often people tend to ignore.

[Dogstar34]

I don't understand why you feel we are more prone to bad luck/deployments/decisions.

 

Re-read what he said:

The BA strength is superior mobility and the ability to use that mobility to place force multipliers in concentrated areas of the field where those bonuses conferred are better than the points paid. Using a Priest to boost a 5 man RAS squad is not worth the 65 pts you pay for him, but using him to boost 3 of them at once certainly is.

 

Then compare it with Fortitude - always on the vehicle, always ready to go with an easy psychic check. If my priest is out of position for whatever reason he isn't buffing the squads that need it. I think a mech/AV13 spam list isolates BA from those issues as much as can be expected, and I forego the cheap libby to bring Mephiston so I have some threat of counter attack otherwise whats the disincentive to just charge headlong into the BA parking lot? The problem arises when I bring autolas preds and meltabikes to match up well against the top 3, but I bump into an Ork horde or Tyranid MC list - all of a sudden I dont have the tools needed to counter those supposedly 'weak' armies, whereas the top 3 have the best of both worlds - Hydra/Manticore/PBS/Meltavets cover all your bases. Purifiers/Halberds/Paladins/Psyflemen cover all your bases. Long Fangs/Grey Hunter Razorback squads/TWC cover all your bases. BA dont have swiss army knives and thats what separates us from being top tier. And while I agree that we have safety nets than most armies, safety nets don't win games. I dont have points in my lists for safety nets. I need units that are going to do damage downrange so I can trade shots and be as efficient as possible. Thats what lets us compete with the top 3, imo.

 

@SamaNagol

I will say I do like using Furioso dreads in pods. Nobody doubts their damage potential and the ability to play them aggressively really takes the pressure off my backfield units (read: autolas preds) that are doing most of the heavy lifting. Mine almost always die but the firepower they attract and the chaos they cause is worth far more than 160 points each.

[Deschenus Maximus]

Then compare it with Fortitude - always on the vehicle, always ready to go with an easy psychic check.

 

Which is made null by Eldar and severly hindered by Rune Priests and, to a lesser extent, extremely common Libbies. Meanwhile there is no way to stop the Priests abilities short of just killing him.

 

If my priest is out of position for whatever reason he isn't buffing the squads that need it.

 

If this is a common occurence for you, perhaps you need to include more Priests in your list to have better coverage.

 

I think a mech/AV13 spam list isolates BA from those issues as much as can be expected, and I forego the cheap libby to bring Mephiston so I have some threat of counter attack otherwise whats the disincentive to just charge headlong into the BA parking lot?

 

Your tanks can all move up to 18 inches a turn - just redeploy. I never ever use Mephiston in tourney lists, and yet I do just fine against assault lists.

 

The problem arises when I bring autolas preds and meltabikes to match up well against the top 3, but I bump into an Ork horde or Tyranid MC list - all of a sudden I dont have the tools needed to counter those supposedly 'weak' armies,

 

Then I'm sorry to say that your list is built wrong. If you have critical gaps against horde armies, then you need to look at making some cuts somewhere in the AT department. Perhaps you could post your list in the list sub-forum and I may make some suggestions?

 

whereas the top 3 have the best of both worlds - Hydra/Manticore/PBS/Meltavets cover all your bases. Purifiers/Halberds/Paladins/Psyflemen cover all your bases. Long Fangs/Grey Hunter Razorback squads/TWC cover all your bases. BA dont have swiss army knives and thats what separates us from being top tier.

 

Short of Purifiers/Paladins, none of these things are especially swiss army knife-ish. Chimera-born meltavets, Razorback-borne Grey Hunters and Razorback-borne BA ASM all generally have the same role - close with the enemy and blow up their tanks with melta, while providing fire support from their transport. Similarly, Hydras, Psyflemen, Fangs and autolas preds are all long range anti-tank fire support units, each with their strengths and weaknesses, with the Psydread being probably the best in the greater amount of situations. We have a plethora of assault units to fulfil the role the T-wolves have. The Manticore and PBS are pretty unique and that's fine.

 

And while I agree that we have safety nets than most armies, safety nets don't win games.

 

I disagree. They don't win games in and of themselves, but this game DOES have a high degree of randomness attached to it. Being able to mitigate that to a certain extent is certainly something that shouldn't be overlooked.

 

I need units that are going to do damage downrange so I can trade shots and be as efficient as possible.

 

Which you do have?

[breng77]

I'll take a stab at ranking armies for you deschenus.

 

Tier 1 -best all around

Grey knights

Space wolves

Imperial guard

 

Tier 2

Necrons

Blood angels

Dark eldar

Space marines

Dark angels

Templars

 

Tier 3 (match-up dependent.)

Orks

Eldar

Daemons

Chaos sm

Tau

Sisters

Nids

[Deschenus Maximus]

Thanks breng. Much appreciated. I would like to see other people take a stab at this too.

[SamaNagol]

Do we have a general consensus on TLAC vs TLPG/LC Razors by the way?

 

I am oh so tempted to switch to the TLPG/LC turrets