overkongen Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 And I really hope the Furioso gets 4 HP's. Hopefully the Talons won't be AP3? All dreadnoughts have 3 HP. Since talons counts as lightning claws they will have AP3. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie1984 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Interesting... Also, with the possibility of glancing a vehicle to death via hull points, have the ML dev squads just become even more useful and points effective?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Interesting... Also, with the possibility of glancing a vehicle to death via hull points, have the ML dev squads just become even more useful and points effective?? Well.. Let's assume with the current rules glancing AV13/14 to death is futile. With that assumption out of the way, the math is simply this: AV13: 5th Ed: 4/6 x 1/6 x 2/6 = 8/216 = 3,7% per Krak missile to penetrate and wreck/explode, so a squad of 4 has 14,8% chance per round of killing it. Put that on a probability curve, you are likely to take out only one AV13 target per round. 6th Ed: Same probability of wrecking it outright as well as 4/6 x 2/6 = 8/36 = 22% chance of at least glancing it per round, meaning on average you'll score 0,88 glances per round. That means you will be doing 4 HPs of damage throughout the game. That's a dead tank. AV14: 5th Ed: Pack your guns and head home. 6th Ed: 4/6 x 1/6 = 4/36 = 11% chance of at least glancing it per round, meaning on average you'll score 0,44 glances per round. That means you will be doing 2 HPs of damage throughout the game. It won't kill the thing by itself, but it's a lot more useful. You are still better off shooting at AV12 and AV13 though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Legionnare Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I smell a lot more love for diversified armies like my BA force. And all of my opponents chuckled in my general direction every time I pulled out two tac squads, one assault squad, and a squad of Death Company + Lemartes in a Land Raider each game, saying they were weak choices. I'll show them, I'LL SHOW THEM ALL! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 and a squad of Death Company + Lemartes in a Land Raider each game, saying they were weak choices. I'll show them, I'LL SHOW THEM ALL! Not a weak choice, but an illegal one. Lemartes is jump infantry, can not be in a transport other than a Storm Raven. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Legionnare Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 and a squad of Death Company + Lemartes in a Land Raider each game, saying they were weak choices. I'll show them, I'LL SHOW THEM ALL! Not a weak choice, but an illegal one. Lemartes is jump infantry, can not be in a transport other than a Storm Raven. Woops, I'm a moron... meant Stormraven. It's a flying Land Raider, or was feared to be one at one point or another. B) Heck, with the "durability" they'll get from cover saves and only being hit on 6's, they might as well be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 and a squad of Death Company + Lemartes in a Land Raider each game, saying they were weak choices. I'll show them, I'LL SHOW THEM ALL! Not a weak choice, but an illegal one. Lemartes is jump infantry, can not be in a transport other than a Storm Raven. Woops, I'm a moron... meant Stormraven. It's a flying Land Raider, or was feared to be one at one point or another. :) Heck, with the "durability" they'll get from cover saves and only being hit on 6's, they might as well be. Then in that case, awesome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Xeones Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I heard someone mention that Dreadnoughts and MCs will get some sort of "Smash" attack where you reduce your number of attacks by half, but double your strength? Has that been confirmed? Might be helpful for DC Dreads and Furiosos with talons since they might actually be able to damage vehicles (especially useful against other walkers) if true. There are three changes that I'm really sad about. Furious Charge no Longer gives an initiative bonus Prefered Enemy nerfed to only allow rerolls of 1s Feel No Pain reduced to a 5+ In general this makes my libbie-led ASMs with Sang Priest support in SRs to much less effective. Against most forces, (ie marines) I'll be taking many more return hits from troops who can now strike simultaneously (not to mention the fact that they'll already have taken their snapfire shots at me --and I won't be able to shrug off as many attacks due to the reduction of FNP. (better versus power weapons, but I'd generally be trying to shoot high concentrations of those rather than throwing ASMs at them. I'm a slow hobbyist though and it takes me forever to build up a force so you know what? I say screw it. I'm going to build my force the way I want it even though its crappy because by the time I have all of it together and painted, it'll be 7th edition and suddenly all my units will be awesome. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Brother Xeones: You're right, but here's the other half of that empty glass... Pref Enemy now allows you to reroll 1s to wound too (how many times have you rolled ones with fists! ><; ) FNP - its only a 5+, but we get it vs. AP2 and vs. Power Weapons etc etc - which is greaaat. Furious Charge.... :) still a bit gutted about that. I would have taken the init bonus over Strength. What was it in 3rd anyone? Just Strength, no? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 I'm pretty angry at all the nerfs coming our way, truth be told. Honestly guys, I think we are being handed the short end of the stick. Our mech lists are nerfed by the hull points change, the way units disembark from vehicles, the increased usefulness of plasmaguns, the reduced cover saves for vehicles, the boost to blast weapons (goddamn Manticores are going to hurt) and other things I'm sure I'm forgetting. Meanwhile our jump lists get nerfed by the reduced FnP, the reduced coversaves, the reduced furious charge, losing guys from the front, the scenario that uses the short table edges for deployment, the reduced Preferred Enemy, the crappy axes and mauls and again some more stuff I'm forgetting. Honestly, better Sang Guard and DC does not make up for the massive loss of effectiveness of the rest of our list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I'm pretty angry at all the nerfs coming our way, truth be told. Honestly guys, I think we are being handed the short end of the stick. Our mech lists are nerfed by the hull points change, the way units disembark from vehicles, the increased usefulness of plasmaguns, the reduced cover saves for vehicles, the boost to blast weapons (goddamn Manticores are going to hurt) and other things I'm sure I'm forgetting. Meanwhile our jump lists get nerfed by the reduced FnP, the reduced coversaves, the reduced furious charge, losing guys from the front, the scenario that uses the short table edges for deployment, the reduced Preferred Enemy, the crappy axes and mauls and again some more stuff I'm forgetting. Honestly, better Sang Guard and DC does not make up for the massive loss of effectiveness of the rest of our list. I'm a complete 180 from you. My DoA list has gotten so much better: -Jump Pack Marines assault farther on average, and get a hammer of wrath attack on the charge (which I bet will use FC strength). -SG super buffed. -Lots more night fighting. -Meta moving away from mech. -DS mishap table is more forgiving. -Lots of ways to make reserves more reliable. -DC jumpers are closer to being a decent value. -Stormravens are more effective in my lists. -The SR allows me foot DC (who got a monster buff) and Dreads in my lists. -Decent DoA synergy with allies. I feel like my birthday came early this year!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Xeones Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 ...Pref Enemy now allows you to reroll 1s to wound too (how many times have you rolled ones with fists! ><; ) Oh really? 1s to wound too? Admittedly that's a little better... I'd not heard that part. FNP - its only a 5+, but we get it vs. AP2 and vs. Power Weapons etc etc - which is greaaat. True. I'll not deny that's nice to have. I'm tempted to say that overall, I'd prefer the old way better though 5+ versus AP2+ shooting is helpful, but that's what we had cover saves and transports for in 5th. In CC, power weapons do hurt and the one guy sporting a power weapon can make most of the kills in a squad, but if fists still deny FNP, then a lot of people's usual special CC attacks will still be hurting us (baring an eventual change in the meta, which I suppose is possible). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Remember as of this morning, theres a conflicting rumour regarding vehicles and hull points too. For those of you who havent been following the dealio is this: All vehicles get hull points (most get 3). If your HP = 0, your vehicle is wrecked. New Damage Table 1-2: Shaken 3: Stunned 4: Wpn Destroyed 5: Immob 6: Explodes AP2 = +1 AP1 = +2 Rumour 1 = Glances remove a Hull Point. Pens remove a Hull Point + roll on the (new) table. Rumour 2 = Glances roll on the table. Pens roll on the table + remove a Hull Point. Table = Now, rumour 2 is MUCH smarter and MUCH cooler, and quite nicely balanced. Therefore going by GW Power Axe logic, they will go with rumour 1, which jsut NERF-bats vehicles into paper-armour oblivion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 It'll be the first one mort, I'm convinced. Gw are quite good at sorting out the flaws of a previous edition. It just seems that sometimes they go too far.the other way. Mech was far too prevalent yes but this seems to have neutered vehicles more severely than perhaps needed. Still I am.excited, particularly about changing up my army to see what works. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
benation Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 "[-]Rixitotal5 points 1 day ago pens roll on the table. 1-2 shaken, 3 stunned, 4 weapon gone, 5 immobilised, 6 explodes. loose all hull points and you get wrecked. permalinkparentreportreply [–]velcona 2 points 1 day ago do glances roll on the table? permalinkparentreportreply [–]fredrikc 1 point 1 day ago According to all other sources they do not. Pen rolls on table and removes one hull point. Glances do only remove one hull point! permalinkparentreportreply [–]Rixitotal 5 points 1 day ago oh and glances take of a hull point but no roll on the table." It is the first one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 It is never too early for mathhammer! Some quick JP assault success rates: 2 inch charge: 100% 3 inch charge: 99.92% 4 inch charge: 99.31% 5 inch charge: 98.61% 6 inch charge: 92.28% 7 inch charge: 82.64% 8 inch charge: 65.97% 9 inch charge: 47.84% 10 inch charge: 30.56% 11 inch charge: 15.97% 12 inch charge: 5.48% Almost 50/50 for a 9 inch charge! I'm going to start out playing 7 inches as acceptable charge failure risk. But it is nice to know that in the waning moments of the last turn, you could sneak in a last second 9 inch charge on the flip of a coin. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 But JP assault is 3d6, isn't it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 But JP assault is 3d6, isn't it? As far as I understand it, it is 2d6 and you can reroll. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 @Leks: To me those are all very minor and/or situational compared to what we lost. I guess time will tell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3095976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Have no fear. I'm confident that GW is going to seriously nerf SG in our FAQ and make me as disappointed as you are. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3096014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 I have 3 squads of the buggers that have been sitting in their boxes for 2 years now... they damn well better not! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3096031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Rumour 1 = Glances remove a Hull Point. Pens remove a Hull Point + roll on the (new) table. Rumour 2 = Glances roll on the table. Pens roll on the table + remove a Hull Point. None of the above! (Rixitotal is back answering questions) Glances remove a hull point. Pens roll on the table, but do not remove a hull point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3096093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 None of the above! (Rixitotal is back answering questions) Glances remove a hull point. Pens roll on the table, but do not remove a hull point. Pens not removing hull points makes no sense. But then this is GW, so, whaddyaknow.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3096134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 @Leks: To me those are all very minor and/or situational compared to what we lost. I guess time will tell. Mech got worse (no surprise) and infantry got a lot better. Sucks for anyone heavily invested in a mech army but luckily for BA we can do very strong infantry lists with our dex. Just about all aspects of it got better too. Rage is no longer uncontrollable, FNP can be taken against almost anything (ask any Necron player if they prefer the old WWB), fearless is no longer such a liability (no retreat wounds are out), rapid fire weapons got better (and we can take those on both scoring jump infantry and JP hammer units!), casualty removal will work strongly in our favor (because we have superior mobility to almost every other army).... and the list goes on The type of list I have been running the most (shooty terminators and jump infantry) just got a huge boost. The terminators in particular already murdered smaller units, now the will be more even survivable and no wound allocation f*ckery makes high volume of fire absolutely brutal to anything caught in the open. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3096163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Ironically, that makes a bucketload of Tau fire warriors a better bet for rhino-busting than a broadside (which, in my experience, are so named for the side of a barn which they could not hit). Tau and Necron gunlines have their base troops able to strip hull points off of rhinos on 6s, so those armies will be fairly threatening to our mech forces. Might have to watch out for that. I can see -some- sense in pens not taking off a hull point (in that you're damaging the inside, and not the hull), but it just doesn't make a huge amount. If its like that, there WILL be times when you point a meltagun at something and you're praying to roll crap to glace it and take away its last hull point, rather than just roll on the table and have a fair chance of doing squat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253536-your-hopes-for-6th-in-relations-to-ba/page/14/#findComment-3096177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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