Can loyalists start winning some duels :P

[b1soul]

Anyone with me on this?

 

So far in the HH series, they've been doing pretty poorly in this department...and I'm not just talking about primarch vs. primarch (those are mainly forgone conclusions).

 

Loyalist marine vs. traitor marine duels usually end with the brutal death of the loyalist (outside the HH series too). I for one, as an unabashed loyalist to the core, would like to see our boys kicking some butt

 

I think Russ vs. Magnus is the only loyalist 1 on 1 victory we have in the HH series so far

Loken vs. Khârn might count too

[Hexx]

It's kinda the way things went, Horus and his goons stomped all over the disorganized loyalists until they got to Terra,where the World Eaters broke the Imperial Palace's wall. The Emperor,realizng he had better places to be once the 12th Legion crushed his walls, decided the safest place to be would be beside Horus. He beamed up to Horus's ship, Horus decided he could take the Emperor without the 12th,and got his ass kicked dead for his poor decision making skills.

Realizing that with the Emperor gone, there wasn't anyone able to give them a good fight the 12th legion left Terra. This lets the scene be set for the resurgence of the Loyalists, who now only have to smack around some Legions with serious father figure issues, and the Loyalists get to clean up the Galaxy over the next 10,000 years, until they mess up again and the end times begin. The rest,as they say,is history.

 

Once the Battle for Terra goes sideways, it's going to be 90% Loyalist victories.

[Billuriye]

But this is wrong.

[Kol Saresk]

But this is wrong.

That's the point. The Heresy is when the Bad Guys are winning. The Battle of Terra is when the Hero performs a miracle and beats everyone up. And the Scouring is the untold story of how much effort has to go into cleaning up the mess and rebuilding. We're only in the first part and it has another five years to go.

[Billuriye]

That's the point. The Heresy is when the Bad Guys are winning. The Battle of Terra is when the Hero performs a miracle and beats everyone up. And the Scouring is the untold story of how much effort has to go into cleaning up the mess and rebuilding. We're only in the first part and it has another five years to go.

My point was there weren't many duels in HH books so far and the ones that happened aren't very traitor centric.

 

Leman Russ vs Magnus. Russ wins though hardly a duel, due to his canine buddies.

Saul Tarvitz vs Lucius. Saul wins.

Horus Aximand vs Bion Henricos. Bion was about stomp him before reinforcements.

Garro vs Plague marines. Garro wins.

Guilliman vs Kor. Guilliman wins.

Lion vs Curze. Draw but Curze got stabbed in the back during duel.

Lorgar vs Corax. Corax wins.

Fulgrim vs Ferrus. Fulgrim wins but only due to daemonic power boost.

 

That's all i remember so far. Clearly traitors weren't doing so well. Not to mention Sigismund and Sanguinius' long tally of asskicking is on the making.

[b1soul]

Not to mention Sigismund and Sanguinius' long tally of asskicking is on the making.

Has Sigismund's "long tally of asskicking" been alluded to somewhere official?

 

Leman Russ vs Magnus. Russ wins though hardly a duel, due to his canine buddies.

What? His fight with Magnus was 1 on 1.

 

Saul Tarvitz vs Lucius. Saul wins.

Was this a sparring match?

 

Horus Aximand vs Bion Henricos. Bion was about stomp him before reinforcements.

Fair enough and Hibou Khan kinda did stomp him with Bion's sword

 

Garro vs Plague marines. Garro wins.

Irrelevant to this thread...

 

Guilliman vs Kor. Guilliman wins.

Not really...Guilliman was at Kor's mercy. If anything it's a bit of a tie

 

Lion vs Curze. Draw but Curze got stabbed in the back during duel.

At one point, the Lion is being choked to death before Alajos saves him. The Lion lands some good blows, but he never puts Curze in comparable danger.

 

Lorgar vs Corax. Corax wins.

Fine...but it was weak and timid Lorgar

 

Fulgrim vs Ferrus. Fulgrim wins but only due to daemonic power boost.

Fulgrim was the better duelist. He beat Ferrus in their first fight. In the second fight, the daemon helped him to overcome his conscience. The anathame seemed to move of its own accord though, I'll admit that.

 

Also...

Aximan & Abaddon vs. Tarik & Loken

Julius Kaesoron vs. Gabriel Santar

Sevatar and Sheng vs. Alajos (admittedly, this was a 2 on 1 "duel" but I'd like to see Alajos take revenge)

Malcharion vs. Raguel (kinda counts)

 

Apart from Russ, every loyalist primarch who fights a traitor primarch loses

The Lion loses to the likes of Luther later on...

[Aegnor]

The Lion loses to Luthor... Hmmmmmm

 

I agree with the basic argument. The traitors do indeed win the big majority of the battles. It's also important to remember true duels are rare in a fluid battle - a melee like the Lion and Curze had, with others joining in, other factors to consider, is more common.

 

The book where it did bother me was Fulgrim, where Ferrus got done over twice, AND every Iron Hand who went up against an EC seemed to lose. Even during the drop site, the Mortlock character was duelling the EC captain - sorry, I can't recall their name, and was taken down. Obviously nearly all, if not all, the IH at the Dropsite died, but giving one of their champions an, in vain, win against the traitors might have balanced out the portrayal of the IH as inferior to the EC at every turn. Even if he killed the guy he was dueling, then looked up and saw another 20 guys coming in to finish him off, so it was clear that this wasn't some re-writing of the Massacre to make it seem like the good guys won.

[Son of Rawl]

Also I would like to point out that in the Imperial codex's it has plenty of victories against Chaos and the traitor marines, we need love too you know

[Kol Saresk]

I believe Billuriye has mentioned most of the wins. Although out of the two listings, everyone missed Konrad Curze vs. Corax with Corax running away across Istvaan with his tail in between his legs if I remember right. But that's besides the point. There have been loyalists victories. Calth(KNF), the one place where the Lion beat back the Black Legion in Fallen Angels, Signus Prime is coming up and there are going to be others, yes. But look at what the Heresy is. It is seven years of Horus and his traitors marching to Terra. Not seven years of Horus almost not making it to Terra with a severely depleted force and then manages to take the Imperial Palace manned by the completely fresh, never-before-seen-in-Heresy-battle, Imperial Fists, alongside the Blood Angels and White Scars with said depleted army. So the majority of big, overwhelming victories will not be Loyalist over Traitor because the oldest fluff already says so. It is Traitor over Loyalist. Besides, the loyalty-confused Alpha Legion opened up an escape route for the White Scars to even reach Terra. Wouldn't that count as a win since they make it?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I believe Billuriye has mentioned most of the wins. Although out of the two listings, everyone missed Konrad Curze vs. Corax with Corax running away across Istvaan with his tail in between his legs if I remember right. But that's besides the point. There have been loyalists victories. Calth(KNF), the one place where the Lion beat back the Black Legion in Fallen Angels, Signus Prime is coming up and there are going to be others, yes. But look at what the Heresy is. It is seven years of Horus and his traitors marching to Terra. Not seven years of Horus almost not making it to Terra with a severely depleted force and then manages to take the Imperial Palace manned by the completely fresh, never-before-seen-in-Heresy-battle, Imperial Fists, alongside the Blood Angels and White Scars with said depleted army. So the majority of big, overwhelming victories will not be Loyalist over Traitor because the oldest fluff already says so. It is Traitor over Loyalist. Besides, the loyalty-confused Alpha Legion opened up an escape route for the White Scars to even reach Terra. Wouldn't that count as a win since they make it?

 

Well, its lucky that you didnt read things right. because anybody who had read things right would have seen Corax own Lorgar, then Curze intervene in the fight before the finishing blow could land. THen Corax breaks from that fight to save his remnants of his Legion, who couldnt be completely destroyed despite the 7 Legion forces arrayed against them, 4 of them being their supposed "allies" moments before. Thats what the rest of us read, atleast those not clad in midnight

 

to the OP, this series is pretty much going to be a beat down of the Imperium. sure, we'll get a few wins here or there, but until the siege breaks on Terra we're pretty much screwed. thats kinda the point of the heresy.

 

the Scouring, which better get a book series of its own, is when the Imperium strikes back and beats the oath-breakers back to the hell they know call home.

 

@b1soul: I believe Billuriye is referencing Russ's 2 wolves, which now interfered in the duel between Magnus and Russ.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

Running from te middle of the fight is the samnas losing the fight. That's why Magnus lost to Russ. He was getting beaten and then he ran away. In TFH, all we see is Curze attacks Corax. In DL, Corax remembers the fight and remembers running away and how it burned at him that he couldn't kill Curze. So yes, I read right. And to be honest, when I read a book, I read a book. If I was reading things solely for Night Lords and for knowing that Night Lords were in the book, I'd have only read four books. Corax survived. So did the Salamanders and the Iron Hands. Vulkan may or may not have survived. But I don't see anyone counting the fact that neither side knows what happened to him in that battle as a victory. Besides, just how many Raven Guard survived Istvaan? They lost enough for the Raven Guard to consider it a defeat and their survival to be the luckiest of possibilities. Of course it helps that one of the seven Legions "hunting" them actually helps them escape.

[calgar101]

In DL Corax muses he could have killed both Lorgar and Curze but at the cost of his own life.. The only person who Corax was scared to fight on Istvaan was Angron. Corax did not run from Lorgar from fear but his sense prevailed, what is the point in dying needlessly and letting your Legion be destroyed?

[Kol Saresk]

But that's the thing, Istvaan was still going to be a loss. In order for Curze to die, Corax would have died. It might be because I have strong sense of self-preservation but a "Me killing you and you taking me with you" doesn't exactly count as a win.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Running from te middle of the fight is the samnas losing the fight.

Not always true, but if you believe that then okay. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

That's why Magnus lost to Russ. He was getting beaten and then he ran away

Magnus lost to Russ because Russ just about destroyed his Legion. The TSs as a legion were broken after Prospero, and finally reached the point of no return (as a Legion) in Battle of the Fang. At the DSM, Corax abandoned the fight to do what Magnus couldnt, save his Legion. While the RG were decimated, they are still a cohesive fighting force, not scattered warbands.

 

In TFH, all we see is Curze attacks Corax. In DL, Corax remembers the fight and remembers running away and how it burned at him that he couldn't kill Curze. So yes, I read right

Yes, Corax is conflicted on his decision. Reading Dl, he judgement is severly compromised throughout much of the book. He is driven by a need for vengeance and pursues this without thinking of the consequences. It takes the AL with their "trollolololololo" moment, and the mutations of the Raptors, to break Corax from this. Basically, Corax's thinking throughout much of DL wasnt him thinking right. He acknowledges he could have finished them both off, at the cost of his life and his Legion's escape. He makes the right decision (IMO) and breaks from a fight for a chance at a greater victory. thats just common sense.

 

Besides, just how many Raven Guard survived Istvaan? They lost enough for the Raven Guard to consider it a defeat and their survival to be the luckiest of possibilities. Of course it helps that one of the seven Legions "hunting" them actually helps them escape.

I believe around 3k survived the DSM. It was a massive defeat, which cannot be denied. But the fact that they managed to live long enough for the rescue to arrive is a victory in itself. (and the AL "trollolololo" everybody is grating on my nerves. It cheapens the sheer awesomeness of the RGs escape, but it seems that the BL want to make the AL into "A wizard did it" for 30k. [and i know the story isnt over yet, so eventually they'll get their comeuppance, but the wait is almost killing me]) And i didnt say anything about the hunting, i meant the fact they survived the initial battle/betrayal.

 

So did the Salamanders and the Iron Hands. Vulkan may or may not have survived. But I don't see anyone counting the fact that neither side knows what happened to him in that battle as a victory.

I cannot wait for BL to show how Vulkan survived. And i believe he did survive because he has been mentioned in the future (loyal) Primarchs debate over adopting the codex

 

And to be honest, when I read a book, I read a book. If I was reading things solely for Night Lords and for knowing that Night Lords were in the book, I'd have only read four books.

Fair enough, i was being a smart aleck here. I apologize.

and i finally got my hands on Void Stalker. I cant wait to start it.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

Oh I can't wait for them to show how he survived since there is that whole thing about him spreading out relics. But my point was that at the very least it was a draw. And I'm not sure his escape can truly be contributed to him because the Word Bearers(or at least most of them) went to Calth. The Night Lords began to engage the Dark Angels. So I would say that the majority of five Legions were at Istvaan with a few individual companies from the other two. There is also the fact that the Alpha Legion did help out with his escape. And only 3,000 surviving out of ten thousand is a pretty bad loss of manpower. To me, it all went with the "What price Victory" category was all.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Oh I can't wait for them to show how he survived since there is that whole thing about him spreading out relics. But my point was that at the very least it was a draw. And I'm not sure his escape can truly be contributed to him because the Word Bearers(or at least most of them) went to Calth. The Night Lords began to engage the Dark Angels. So I would say that the majority of five Legions were at Istvaan with a few individual companies from the other two. There is also the fact that the Alpha Legion did help out with his escape. And only 3,000 surviving out of ten thousand is a pretty bad loss of manpower. To me, it all went with the "What price Victory" category was all.

 

I always thought that majority of the Traitor legions were at the DSM, and only received orders to go to the next stages of the war (Lorgrar and Angron to Ultramar, Curze to take care of the Lion, etc) afterwards. (i think the novella Aurelian has some kind of super-friends meeting about this. i am not sure only because i refuse to pay $50 for a book, so have to wait for its mass release in the far future).

 

while this creates a messed up with the timing of the Heresy, so has nearly every other book released so far.

 

and i believe the RG arrived with 80,000 soldiers and left with about 3k. in this case, i am taking their mere survival as a victory of sorts.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

If I remember right, KNF happened immediately after Calth. Extremely immediately after. At least that was my understanding since Gulliman wasn't even aware that Istvaan III had happened, much less V until he was told it happened.

[calgar101]

80,000 Raven Guard went to Istvaan, 5,000 escaped but remember Bran and his company were stationed at Deliverance so around 6,000 Raven Guard are left.

 

Unless there is a massive change Vulkan survives Istvaan and the remaining Salamanders retreat to Nocturne to rebuild.

 

Indeed in Aurelian the traitor Primarchs have a war council, where each Primarch's role is made clear by Horus. Calth happened after Istvaan however due to Warp storms and distance Ultramar did not hear about it.

[b1soul]

The book where it did bother me was Fulgrim, where Ferrus got done over twice, AND every Iron Hand who went up against an EC seemed to lose. Even during the drop site, the Mortlock character was duelling the EC captain - sorry, I can't recall their name, and was taken down. Obviously nearly all, if not all, the IH at the Dropsite died, but giving one of their champions an, in vain, win against the traitors might have balanced out the portrayal of the IH as inferior to the EC at every turn. Even if he killed the guy he was dueling, then looked up and saw another 20 guys coming in to finish him off, so it was clear that this wasn't some re-writing of the Massacre to make it seem like the good guys won.

Yes, I understand that Ferrus must die by Fulgrim's hand, but couldn't some of his marines win a few personal victories? No...they must all lose to the EC counterparts too

 

There have been loyalists victories. Calth(KNF), the one place where the Lion beat back the Black Legion in Fallen Angels, Signus Prime is coming up and there are going to be others, yes. But look at what the Heresy is. It is seven years of Horus and his traitors marching to Terra?

Yes but I'm talking about winning personal combat, not winning battles

 

 

In DL, Corax remembers the fight and remembers running away and how it burned at him that he couldn't kill Curze

Well my friend, you did not read DL correctly

Corax regrets that he didn't kill Curze, not that he couldn't. He even muses that he could've killed Curze, being the more skilled fighter

 

Anyway, Corax had lost a lightning claw and had just finished a battle with Lorgar (who did manage to land a few hard blows). Taking on Curze with the possibility of Lorgar joining in would not have been very wise.

 

Thats what the rest of us read, atleast those not clad in midnight

They are legion among the traitor fans :D

 

To be fair, Remus Ventanus kills Wordbearers left and right, but Word Bearers tend to be a favourite authour choice of antagonists to be massacred

 

Oh, let's not forget Curze's likely sucker punching of and mauling of Dorn

[Hergrmir]

I did find the repeated mauling of the IH heroes at the DSM kind of annoying. Not that I have any great sympathy for the Hands, mind, but still, it would have been nice to have a moment where they shone brightly.

 

If Corax had killed Lorgar and maybe Kurze too things may well have gone differently. The surviving Raven Guard didn't really do much, so I don't think re: the Heresy it mattered much if Corax lived or not, but if Lorgar had bitten it perhaps the WBs would be a lot less able to make war than they were.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

If Corax had killed Lorgar and maybe Kurze too things may well have gone differently. The surviving Raven Guard didn't really do much, so I don't think re: the Heresy it mattered much if Corax lived or not, but if Lorgar had bitten it perhaps the WBs would be a lot less able to make war than they were.

 

Well, the 7 years the HH actually lasted havent been fleshed out until now, so who knows the surviving Raven Guard will contribute? Now Horus has a pissed off primarch, and around 3-5k of space marines who excel at causing chaos and sole mission is to hurt him as much as possible... yea, they are going to contribute something

 

I am not sure of what to make if Lorgar actually died there...could the Chaos powers revive hi, as they do Khârn? Maybe Curze's intervention was the workings of Chaos to keep their pawn active.

 

WLK

[Bearingtheword]

If I remember right, KNF happened immediately after Calth. Extremely immediately after. At least that was my understanding since Gulliman wasn't even aware that Istvaan III had happened, much less V until he was told it happened.

 

 

I'm assuming you meant KNF happened right after the DSM, not Calth, as KNF takes place at Calth. As for the timing KNF would certainly have been some time after as Kor Phaeron was shown to be present at the DSM alongside Lorgar, and Kor Phaeron would have had to travel some distance to be leading the forces against Guilliman at Calth. (Although we are talking about the warp here.) I'd agree with your thinking that it does happen very quickly after the DSM, but there is some room for time to delay to plan and conspire due to the warp storms. It was the same warp storms that would have prevented word of the DSM to spread and reach Calth. Also we have the forces of Chaos working to prevent the word from spreading as well, allowing only the communications that Horus wanted to reach Guilliman to get to him, such as the order to muster at Calth and join with the WB to tackle the supposed Ork incursion.

 

As to the original topic I think that the future holds many exciting and interesting duels ahead. :cuss

 

 

~BtW

[b1soul]

I did find the repeated mauling of the IH heroes at the DSM kind of annoying.

Yes, apparently the Emperor's Children are their Kryptonite

[Kol Saresk]

If I remember right, KNF happened immediately after Calth. Extremely immediately after. At least that was my understanding since Gulliman wasn't even aware that Istvaan III had happened, much less V until he was told it happened.

 

 

I'm assuming you meant KNF happened right after the DSM, not Calth, as KNF takes place at Calth. As for the timing KNF would certainly have been some time after as Kor Phaeron was shown to be present at the DSM alongside Lorgar, and Kor Phaeron would have had to travel some distance to be leading the forces against Guilliman at Calth. (Although we are talking about the warp here.) I'd agree with your thinking that it does happen very quickly after the DSM, but there is some room for time to delay to plan and conspire due to the warp storms. It was the same warp storms that would have prevented word of the DSM to spread and reach Calth. Also we have the forces of Chaos working to prevent the word from spreading as well, allowing only the communications that Horus wanted to reach Guilliman to get to him, such as the order to muster at Calth and join with the WB to tackle the supposed Ork incursion.

 

As to the original topic I think that the future holds many exciting and interesting duels ahead. :)

 

 

~BtW

Yeah I meant DSM, not Calth. Just a brain fart. Maybe they could have just surfed the tides of the storm. But since KNF says that the storms originated at Calth... Well.

[Bearingtheword]

If I remember right, KNF happened immediately after Calth. Extremely immediately after. At least that was my understanding since Gulliman wasn't even aware that Istvaan III had happened, much less V until he was told it happened.

 

 

I'm assuming you meant KNF happened right after the DSM, not Calth, as KNF takes place at Calth. As for the timing KNF would certainly have been some time after as Kor Phaeron was shown to be present at the DSM alongside Lorgar, and Kor Phaeron would have had to travel some distance to be leading the forces against Guilliman at Calth. (Although we are talking about the warp here.) I'd agree with your thinking that it does happen very quickly after the DSM, but there is some room for time to delay to plan and conspire due to the warp storms. It was the same warp storms that would have prevented word of the DSM to spread and reach Calth. Also we have the forces of Chaos working to prevent the word from spreading as well, allowing only the communications that Horus wanted to reach Guilliman to get to him, such as the order to muster at Calth and join with the WB to tackle the supposed Ork incursion.

 

As to the original topic I think that the future holds many exciting and interesting duels ahead. :lol:

 

 

~BtW

Yeah I meant DSM, not Calth. Just a brain fart. Maybe they could have just surfed the tides of the storm. But since KNF says that the storms originated at Calth... Well.

 

 

I was referring to the warp storms that happened before Calth, before even the DSM. The ones that held up the fleets from reaching Istvaan until the "appropriate" time, and held up the Custodes bearing ships that were attached to the WB fleet.

 

 

~BtW

 

And yeah I figured it was a brainfart :lol: