ForTheLion Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Hey, i was just reading through fallen angels again and i realised the following line on page 41 of fallen angels... "It made him (lion) one of the finest generals, second to only horus himself" I always thought The Lion was supposed to be the greatest general...so if strategic aquity wasnt what he got from his father, what was his "emperor part gift" Ex. magnus got the psychic potential Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I think it's more a matter of strategic aquity only being part of what makes a great general. The Lion is the superior tactician, but Horus was a much better leader of men. Running a legion is going to require an understanding of soldier, personalities, the ability to control any internal politicking, and a knack for inspiration. The Lion is far too secretive and taciturn to really be good at that side of things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3077151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 The Lion was great at strategy and tactics, but he lacked charisma. I mean, we're talking about the guy who unnecessarily judo chops Nemiel for questioning an order . Even Chaos Horus isn't that uptight with his Sons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3077173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Even Chaos Horus isn't that uptight with his Sons. No he just ruthless slaughtered any he didn't think would side with him against the Emperor... :D That has to be the most ridiculous comparison I've seen yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3077182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Even Chaos Horus isn't that uptight with his Sons. No he just ruthless slaughtered any he didn't think would side with him against the Emperor... :rolleyes: That has to be the most ridiculous comparison I've seen yet. But all others got cookies. No cookies from Lion. That's actually quite a point. Lion is behaving like post-fall Fulgrim, killing on a whim for questioning him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3077455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I always thought The Lion was supposed to be the greatest general...so if strategic aquity wasnt what he got from his father, what was his "emperor part gift" The Primarchs were not made with distinct qualities, or imbued with special unique attributes. That is just a cute way of categorizing them. Jonson is mentioned as having achieved the second highest tally of victories since 2nd Edition of 40K, with Horus having achieved the highest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3077617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 The Primarchs were not made with distinct qualities, or imbued with special unique attributes. That is just a cute way of categorizing them. But in Deliverance Lost, there are hints that each Primarch has his own flavour and distinct engineering. Perturabo with fewer pain receptors, Russ with canine attributes etc. It's not just environmental adaptation or touch of warp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3077641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Interesting item to note, in regard to the passage in Deliverance Lost, was 2 years ago ADB made a comment about the Lion's Willpower being a quality that was unsurpassed, even amongst his brothers. It certainly does show if you consider he was dropped on a world a stone's throw from the eye, in a chaos infested forest, on a chaos infested planet. Willpower turns what should have been the easiest fall from grace of any primarch, into an incredible and stubborn refusal to give fealty to anyone other than the Emperor. Thats potentially why he was included in the pod scene in First Heretic, amongst the introduction of traitor primarchs. Even the gods themselves underestimated his willpower and sold him short. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3077807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 The Lion seems to have inherited from the Big E 2 things: 1) A boat load of arrogance, 2) A sense of entitlement, I'm liking how well he's being portrayed if not the characteristics/ Rik Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 The Lion seems to have inherited from the Big E 2 things: 1) A boat load of arrogance, 2) A sense of entitlement, I love how people make comments like this but never with anything to back them up... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Well since the Lion is of the belief that no one would want to face him outright because he would always win and yet there are so many fan-made theories that Horus kept the Space Wolves away because they were that powerful or the same thing with the Ultramarines, it does give claim to him "being arrogant". And he says this, in Fallen Angel, Savage Weapons and The Lion. And well, the Emperor made twenty Legions of super-killers to bring a message of peace to the many worlds of Humanity while holding a knife behind their backs. Then there is the Unification War itself, the Emperor killed all of his Thunder Warriors. Not only that, but he had the historians hide just who the Thunder Warriors were, how they beat, pillaged and burned like the barbarians of old. And then make his "peaceful" Imperium. Of course, this is my "biased" perception of the fluff. So the first claim is not entirely off the mark. Not so sure about the sense of entitlement. But I am sure that he inherited a sense of paranoia, considering how he doesn't trust anyone, even those in his own Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBrother Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Well there lot more to commanding when just strategy. There is also charisma, courage, and planning. Lion may be good commander but Horus was superior general because of charisma he channeled to his men, and Alpharius was way better planner then Lion. Also IIRC Lion was coward, and cowards are bad leaders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I think unfortunately the whole "each Primarch represents an aspect of the Emperor/each Primarch has a specialized purpose" thing has often been really deleterious to the standard of thinking about each Primarch. It's not that there isn't truth in the statement, but rather that it's encouraged people to think about the Primarchs, who should be pretty damn complex characters, as 2 dimensional, single characteristic cardboard cut outs. They should each be complicated, multi-faceted characters. It isn't just "the Lion is paranoid, Horus is ambitious, Fulgrim is vain". I mean, in the past they have been portrayed like that, when they had a line or two of fluff each, but it's not how they're generally portrayed in the HH series. They all received a mix of abilities and attitudes from ther genetics and upbringings. All of them are superb warriors and generals. Each of them has a measure of pride, of ambition, of paranoia, of dutifulness. Not saying that some of them don't end up being dominated by a few of these characteristics, but I think oversimplifying them doesn't help understand them. I also think arguing about who is the better general is like arguing about who would win in a one-on-one fight. That said, I don't think there can be any argument that in terms of "popular opinion" at the height of the Grand Crusade, Horus was considered the pre-eminent general and leader - that's stated baldly as a fact by a variety of sources a number of times. Whether that perception was reality is impossible to conclusively prove. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Also IIRC Lion was coward, and cowards are bad leaders. Not sure what the basis of this view is, unless it's a Wizard of Oz reference... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodBrother Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Didn't Lion waited and hesitated to act during Heresy? As in waiting to see who would be victorious and to whom his aliegence be. When he heard of Horus defeat, Lion quickly went into Loyalist side and based his inactivity/neutrality in conflict with 'dealing with traitors in my own ranks', but if Horus had won, I easelly see same scanario but with different elements. Lion joining Horus and saying 'I was busy fighting loyalists in my legion'. Lion was coward who stayed neutral to the complete end, ready to turn traitor if Horus had gained some advantage. Worst Primarch IMO, other Primarchs chose what side they are at start of heresy, while Lion was full of doubts. He was so paranoid because he was traitor all along. Betrayed Emperor, and later Horus after he started to lose whole war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 No, no he didn't. The Lion is, was, and always will be loyal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Well, you're taking the word of a traitor Fallen Angel who was indicated in the text as likely to be lying in order to justify himself/mess with the loyalists. Also, there have been another two novels, a novella, and multiple short stories done as part of the HH series that don't support that traitor's account. The Lion was busy fighting the Night Lords during that period, having acted to try to frustrate Horus at Diamet - and it's been made clear he's fighting, so far, for the Emperor. The fluff you're citing has been expanded and in the process made clearer. What's more, Gav Thorpe who wrote Angels of Darkness has said he didn't think everyone would accept Astelan's claims so unquestioningly when he wrote that part of the book. Is he a secretive, sometimes mercurial guy whose actions don't always jibe with other loyalists? Absolutely. A traitor or coward? Absolutely not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 The Lion stabbed Russ because he blamed Russ for making him late to the siege of Terra. Sounds like someone who was pretty upset or he was great at playing the game which would seem to go against how he is normally portrayed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Really - there was me thinking they fought because the SW's launched an ill-planned assault on an enemy fortress that the DA's were about to take with a better planned assault so Russ could claim the head of the enemy leader who had insulted the Emperor... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 And that he sucker-punched Russ rather than stabbed him... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Edit: stupid double post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Lion stabbed Russ a few times, it seems. Once for screwing up his plan, and another for making him late. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 You got a reference for this "stabbing incident"? I just looked and could only find the punch up over who got to kill the bad guy story - and in that case, Russ threw the first punch, before eventually seeing the funny side at which point El'Jonson suckered him. Not saying the stabbing thing re: making me late isn't true, but I can't find it, hence curious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 The Lion was a product of his upbringing. He learned quickly that the only thing he could ever rely on was himself, he learned that trust is often misplaced. When he lead Caliban to destroy the beasts and bring peace he found his own damned people not only resisting him but SAVING the beasts that had terrorised Caliban for so long. When the Emperor turns up his own ranks plan to kill the guy! This is not a situation that engenders trust. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078336 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 When they arrived on Terra, the Lion got so angry with Russ that he stabbed him in the chest, but his grief stopped him before he punctured the secondary heart. You're right though, the "messing up his plan" fight was just a punch, not a stab. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/#findComment-3078338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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