Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Legatus]

Well, for one thing the Dark Angels were travelling with the Space Wolves when they were on their way back to Terra, and it was the Space Wolves who insisted to stop on their way to save a forgeworld from traitor forces. Jonson blamed Russ for that delay, and it would come to a duel between the two. 

 

For newer sources, we have the story "Savage Weapons", where Jonson is shown to be absolutely loyal to the Emperor, even when Curze predicts that the Dark Angels will be mistrusted in the future. 

 

The latter source directly invalidates Astelan's claims (and was perhaps indeed intentionally written that way by A D-B ), but to me what's more important is that it does not conform with the classic story about the Space Wolves' and Dark Angels' joint journey back to Terra. The conspiracy about the Dark Angels intentionally waiting would entirely dismiss that older plot just to set up the controversial allegations. 

[Adra'Melek]

  On 8/17/2013 at 10:17 AM, High MarshalGR said:

Now, one of the most interesting view of the events I've heard and I can't simply discard it due to the fact that the claims match the Lion's character:

 

 

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Ten standard millennia later, a captured Fallen Angel named Merir Astelan would tell a different version of these events. According to Astelan, Lion El'Jonson was late in arriving to the defence of Terra not due to being too far away, but because he was waiting to see whether it was Horus or the Emperor who won the great conflict between them. Astelan, believing that those who were with Jonson would not forgive them for turning on their brothers, ordered the defensive batteries of Caliban to fire upon the returning Dark Angels' fleet. The difference between the Dark Angels' view of the fall of Caliban and that of the Fallen Angel Astelan is considered to be due to Astelan's literally warped perception of these events, but some aspects of this story may ring with truth after all, and Lion El'Jonson might have betrayed the Emperor in his heart, if not in his mind, when he was most needed.

 

 

I would like to hear the reasons we can discard these words simply as "those are a heretic's word's", when in fact it's like hearing the way the Lion functions (with his mind, not his heart) from a "Fallen Angel". Everything matches the Lion's "brilliance". Go with the winner. THat's so pragmatic, it is something he might have done.

You don't need reasons to disregard them. They're the words of someone who is know to dislike the Lion and is also known to be apart from the Lion when these events occurred. Add to that the fact the Fallen like stirring trouble up for the DA, you need reasons why that shouldn't be disregarded as the words of a heretic.

[Augustus]

Preach Legatus and TH, preach :)

 

Phoebus' explanation of Astelan is spot on IMO just ask him :)

[DarthMarko]

I kind of like the duality of DA...Who is to say that maybe the fallen were seduced by lies from chaos and were acting on what they thought is right...I'mean you can't blame them 100% for turning to chaos... Also @Legatus Russ and Lion didn't duel in the end...lion stabbed him after Russ ripped his chestpiece and plunged to his sword just to end their squable....Here is the story

 

 

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"In Lemora, the Chapters were assaulted by a fleet of pirates, reavers
who had used the outbreak of the Heresy to pillage and loot, just as
had happened before the Emperor had established his peace. In the
battle that followed, many ships were lost before the pirates were
overcome. After defeating the corsair leader, Ghoran the Navigator, in single
combat, Russ spared the man's life, then forced him to swear loyalty
to the Emperor. Ghoran did so and afterwards he and his men fought
bravely against the heretics. Ghoran's grandson was later to repay the
his forbear's debt most honourably. On the Shield Worlds Russ and
Jonson defeated the Tyrant Mashashi and his army of ten million blood
drinking men. From him they learned of the great assault that was
planned on Earth. Mashashi was a sorcerer and a seer and even as he
died, blood bubbling from his lips, his ribcage ruined by a sweep of
Russ's axe, he sneered at his victorious foes and told them all their
efforts would be in vain. The Emperor would die, slain by Warmaster
Horus.



Looking into Mashashi's great viewing crystal. the two Primarchs saw a
terrible scene. In a place of utter Chaos, the Emperor stood alone
against the hideously changed Warmaster. Their brother Sanguinius
already lay dead at the great evil one's feet. Russ and Jonson were
deeply disturbed by Mashashi's prophecy. Both realised that it might be a
trap set by the Dark Powers but both feared the worst, for the crystal
of seeing was an ancient artifact of great power and was said to
infallibly reveal the hidden secrets of the universe. The two Primarchs
debated the course of action they should take. Within the crystal they
saw the great fleets of the heretics voyaging towards Earth. The saw
five entire Chapters of corrupted Space Marines, depraved spawn of
Chaos and evens Daemons descend towards the Imperium's heart. They
decided that they much reach Earth, whatever the risk, and take part in
this battle even if it was their last. They decided to use the crystal
to guide them on the last, long warp voyage.



Gathering their men and ships the Primarchs led them into the warp. It was to be the longest single
journey ever attempted at that time and it appeared doomed from the
very start. Within the vast seas of warp space they were assaulted by
Daemons who tried to prevent them reaching Terra. Many brave Space
Marines and proud ships were lost. Great storms, sent by the Chaos
powers themselves, swept them off course and drive them to the many
shadowy corners of the universe unseen by men before of since. Brave
men went mad, or starved or died in hideous plagues, but still the
ships drove on, ploughing through that terrible, secret sea. In the
end, with Russ himself at the helm of the Winter Wolf, his navigator
driven insane from the horros he had witnessed on the long journey, the
fleet arrived too late.



Time flows strangely in warp space, and though it seemed to the
ships'crew that they had travelled only for weeks, long and hard weeks
though they may have been, in the true universe of matter many months
had passed. The Space Wolves and the Dark Angels arrived on Earth to
find the ultimate tragedy come to pass. The Ruins of Earth.



The Space Wolves and the Dark Angels dropped into the fighting around
the ruins of the Emperor's Palace. Joining forces with the remnants of
the White Scars and the Blood Angels they swiftly drove the forces of
Chaos from the rubble. Howling his warcry, Russ battled his way into his
father's throne-room, slaying every enemy that came within range of
his bolter of within reach of his axe. By his side were his wolves,
guarding his back, howling warnings of hidden enemies and lamentations
for fallen brothers. Through the shadowy halls Russ battled and one by
one his bodyguards fell away, slain by their fearsome foes. Russ feared
not. THere were monsters in the most sacred hall in the Universe and
Russ vowed he would slay every one of them if need be.



Two-headed mutants fell to his blade. Great formless spawn erupted and
these he flamed. Daemons stalked the halls, howling in terror, for the
Emperor had slain Horus and in turn taken a mortal wound. Russ showed
no foe mercy. Hatred was in his heart and death was in his hand.



Russ came at last to the audience chamber. Fallen stone angels lay on the marble floor.
The bodies of dead men and monsters were strewn everywhere. Over
everything lay an eerie quiet and even the great wolves fell silent.
Russ called aloud for the Emperor and his cry echoed, answerless, round
the great chamber. He stood alone, at the centre of the world, and
wept. He knelt before the Emperor's empty throne and prayed for
guidance. In the distance, brazen horns sounded their victorious note.
Word of the death of Horus and the arrival of Russ and Jonson had
spread and the forces of Chaos fled in full retreat. The dark will that
had bound them was gone. For the first time Russ felt no joy in
victory and saw no glory in his deeds. In the empty hall, all seemed
meaningless and dark, and despair threatened to overtake him.



The air shimmered and Rogal Dorn, stern Primarch of the Imperial Fists
appeared. In his arms he carried the broken body of the Emperor.
Behind him his men reverently carried the corpse of the eagle-winged
Sanguinius. He would fly no more. Russ looked wearily at Dorn. Silently
Dorn shook his head. Both men knew that it was over. Horus's treachery
had left the Imperium in ruins. The band of brothers was sundered
forever. The dream that they had fought for was dead. This was no
victory. Russ let out a great howl of grief and rage, and turned and
stalked from the Hall.



Jonson found him under the Monument to the Victory at Durath. He too
had taken the Emperor's loss most grievously. He too was maddened with
pain and heartbreak and despair. In that darkest hour, bitter words were
spoken. Jonson accused Russ of losing Earth. If they had not paused at
Kalida Secundus they might have arrived in time. Jonson raged, Russ
stared back mutely, then told the Dark Angels Primarch to go away. He
had no thirst for battle. He lay down to sleep under the fallen statue
to meaningless victory.



As he slept, he dreamed. As he dreamed the Emperor came to him. Russ
was filled with wonder. The Emperor spoke, telling him that now was the
time of testing. Now it was up to him and his true brothers to hold the
Imperium together lest all that they had accomplished vanish. He told
him that the matter between him and Jonson must be settled now and
forever. When Russ woke Jonson stood over him, armoured and armed for a
duel. Russ rose to his feet. He saw the folly of what was about to
happen. The realm of Mankind was going to fall into anarchy, chaos and
darkness, and those who could prevent it were fighting among themselves.
He looked at Jonson and shook his head. Filled with rage Jonson
insisted he fight. Russ simply exposed his chest, offering his heart to
Jonson's blade. Jonson struck, but at the last second perceived his
madness. As the blade pierced Russ's primary heart, Jonson turned his
stroke aside, deflecting the blade from bone, and missing the second
heart. The duel was settled. Honour was satisfied at last.



When Russ awoke he found Dorn and Jonson standing over his bed. Jonson
bowed his head and begged forgiveness. Russ gave it. Dorn told the
Lord of Fenris of the construction of the Golden Throne by the Adeptus
Mechanicus, that would preserve some spark of the Emperor's life until
perhaps a cure could be found. The three of them swore a great oath
never to do battle against each other again. For the universe had grown
dark and Daemons were still at large and the true Space Marine were
the last bulwark of mankind against ultimate destruction. They strode
forth to re-unite the shattered Imperium under the Emperor's banner.
THey drove the forces of Chaos back to the Eye of Terror. They fought
many battle, for there was a galaxy to conquer. They banded together
with the remaining loyal Primarchs and re-established order. Thus was
the Imperium preserved and the Law maintained in the Universe. But the
Emperor was lost and the Golden Age was over forever."

 

 

[High MarshalGR]

  On 8/17/2013 at 11:01 AM, Legatus said:

Well, for one thing the Dark Angels were travelling with the Space Wolves when they were on their way back to Terra, and it was the Space Wolves who insisted to stop on their way to save a forgeworld from traitor forces. Jonson blamed Russ for that delay, and it would come to a duel between the two.

For newer sources, we have the story "Savage Weapons", where Jonson is shown to be absolutely loyal to the Emperor, even when Curze predicts that the Dark Angels will be mistrusted in the future.

The latter source directly invalidates Astelan's claims (and was perhaps indeed intentionally written that way by A D-, but to me what's more important is that it does not conform with the classic story about the Space Wolves' and Dark Angels' joint journey back to Terra. The conspiracy about the Dark Angels intentionally waiting would entirely dismiss that older plot just to set up the controversial allegations.

I haven't read Savage Weapons so I kinda miss the information it provides us with... Now, the Loyalty of the Lion in heart is what I would wanna know. Is he Loyal by heart, or by mind? So interesting story... And we kept the thread alive. (this is the main reason I tossed that issue)

[Kol Saresk]

Because currently, Astelan was seen helpting Luther attempt to harness the power of a daemon in Fallen Angels. In The Lion, we El'Jonson talking to a Watcher in the Dark. Going by his side of the conversation(we don't know what the Watcher said), he was warned that things are not going to well on Caliban. And yet he chose to do what he could to protect the Imperium as he saw fit rather than go to Caliban.

 

Basically, at the moment, Astelan is being proven wrong. He might eventually be proven right, but it is doubtful. As long as things continue the way they are.

[Captain Idaho]

I do wish people would stop saying Savage Weapons proves the Lion's absolute loyalty to the Emperor. Isn't that the same source that shows him disobeying the Emperor's most serious law, resulting in an incident infamous on this very forum?

 

I'd say the Lion's character is incredibly deep and duplicitous. He is loyal yet disobedient. He is a great leader yet makes rudimentary mistakes. He fights with honour yet isn't above sucker punching his brothers (shown twice now). He is intolerant of the enemies of mankind yet works alongside, in secret, with xenos psykers. He is calm and calculated yet his rage causes him to commit acts he later regrets.

[Conn Eremon]

Disobeying an order is not the same as disloyalty.

 

Edit: Slightly invalidated by your edit.

[Captain Idaho]

It is when following the order meant life or death. The Edict of Nikea was very specific.

[Kol Saresk]

  On 8/17/2013 at 7:32 PM, Captain Idaho said:

I do wish people would stop saying Savage Weapons proves the Lion's absolute loyalty to the Emperor. Isn't that the same source that shows him disobeying the Emperor's most serious law, resulting in an incident infamous on this very forum?

 

I'd say the Lion's character is incredibly deep and duplicitous. He is loyal yet disobedient. He is a great leader yet makes rudimentary mistakes. He fights with honour yet isn't above sucker punching his brothers (shown twice now). He is intolerant of the enemies of mankind yet works alongside, in secret, with xenos psykers. He is calm and calculated yet his rage causes him to commit acts he later regrets.

No, The Lion is the novella where El'Jonson (temporarily)dissolved the Edict of Nikea and reinstated his Librarians. So Savage Weapons does show his loyalty. What The Lion was supposed to show(I think, I'm not Gav Thorpe after all so I could be wrong about this; most likely am) was that the Lion is so..... blinded by his loyalty that in order to protect the Emperor, he is willing to do whatever is necessary, even if it meant burning the Imperium to the ground just to reach him. Its a bit more, overzealous and damaging portrayal to the Lion's character, but since Gav Thorpe is also the author of the same novel(Angels of Darkness) that first proposed the idea that the Lion waited to see who won the war rather than going to Terra full steam ahead it is only natural that the Lion be made to appear dubios, even in his staunching, unwavering loyalty.

[Captain Idaho]

Potato, potarto. ;)

 

The path to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Kol Saresk]

It surely is. To be honest, I think very few of the Primarchs actually are truly loyal, not just to the Emperor or the Imperium, but to both and the principles they stand for, well to be honest I am starting to think of the Traitors as Traitors and the Loyalists as "Neutrals".

[Kais Klip]

How many primarchs do we reckon to be loyal to the Emperor's ideal, wherever that be the destruction of chaos or the ascension of humanity into a utopia (both unattainable and thus always available to be furthered) rather than the Emperor himself. I'm not touting the XX legion's horn, but I think even the majority of Terran legionaries fight for the Emperor rather than humantiy the Imperium of Man (in a scenario where the two divide). The only legion that would even come close to loyalty towards the Emperor's ideal are the Salamanders in my opinion, perhaps even Ultramarines as we'll find out in Unremembered. I doubt we can answer that question without first finding out the Emperor's primary directive, but if we assume it is what Legion suggests and actually the Elimination of Chaos (A valid argument could be made that this is in order to better humanity, thus humanity's betterment is the prime directive, we'll only know this if sufficient evidence points that Chaos betters humanity).

What legions would turn away from;

A) common humanity if prime directive is Elimination of Chaos

B] Emperor if prime directive is betterment of all man || Salamanders stand a chance for that, although their presence in the great crusade contradicts that
C) Humanity if prime directive is Imperium of Man at the behest of the Emperor Great Crusade answers that
D) Betterment of Imperium of Man through a different course Horus Heresy answers that with Luna Wolves, doubt other legions were in for humanity's betterment

Note there are a hell of a lot of assumptions that I am making, ripe for debunking

And what if either or both of the lost legions chose B

Edit: I'm regarding the time frame of Unity through to the Heresy, rather than the 40k setting, since there are a lot of divergent chapters and some like Space Wolves and Celestial Lions changed their loyalty from Emperor and Imprium to Humanity (inquisition incidents).

[Kol Saresk]

I'd say the Word Bearers fit in category D. Part of Lorgar's deal is that he believes if Humanity can be merged with the Warp, they will achieve an ascendance not seen since the Eldar were a major power.

[Onisuzume]

  On 8/17/2013 at 7:40 PM, Captain Idaho said:

It is when following the order meant life or death. The Edict of Nikea was very specific.

Did the Emperor know that the dæmons/chaos would become an actual problem that would engage his legions in corporeal combat? Personally, I doubt it. As such, the Lion was, imo, right re-evaluate the edict in light of new circumstances.

Guilliman was also determined to see the edict anulled after Calth, the Lion simply decided to break the edict and deal with the consequences rather than leave his legion with a vulnerability.

[Legatus]

What I recall the Edict of Nikaea saying is that sorcery is outlawed and Librarians are a-ok. Perhaps Jonson just hadn't been informed of the retcon yet. 

[Captain Idaho]

Yes but Guilliman still didn't break the edict. At least not yet.

 

Besides, the Lion didn't have to do it the way he did.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, the Emperor did know that. The Razing of Prospero was just after Davin. Not only that, but the breaching of the Webway at Terra opened Terra to the potential of constant Daemonic assault. As much as a strategist as the Emperor was, he should have known that if the forces of Chaos were willing to launch a siege straight at Terra, that like any other siege, they would have been loking for the back door. And the only back door open to reatures of the warp would have been through the material universe. He should have at least suspected that the Chaos Gods found an organized mortal force somewhere that they could use against the Imperium, even if he wouldn't believe that it was Horus. The Edict wasn't just a misjudgement. It was a tactical blunder worse than when Napoleon chased the Russians into winter.

 

Legatus, A Thousand Sons says that the Edict(as spoken by the Emperor) orders that all Legion Librariuses to be disbanded and the Librarians are to rejoin the rank and file. They are also not to ever use their powers.

[Onisuzume]

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Actually, the Emperor did know that.

So he knew that his legions would be fighting daemons? And that by removing the librarians he'd be taking away their best defence against said daemons?

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The Razing of Prospero was just after Davin.

And from what I gathered on lexicanum, the council happened some time before that.

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The Edict wasn't just a misjudgement. It was a tactical blunder worse than when Napoleon chased the Russians into winter.

Except that Napoleon was already at Moscow by september 14 1812, and he started his retreat a month later. If anything, it was the Russians chasing Napoleon.

History aside, ordering all psykers to stop doing that stuff would probably have helped the Emperor's research of what he was doing beneath his palace. Magnus' decision to break the edict to warn him of the impending betrayal caused the problem.

So while the Emperor knew of chaos and daemons, he probably didn't expect them to become a corporeal threat to his legions in real space (maybe not even during warp travel provided the gellar fields held). As such, the edict might've been a sound plan, it was quickly reduced to a burden in light of a new threat.

[Legatus]

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Legatus, A Thousand Sons says that the Edict(as spoken by the Emperor) orders that all Legion Librariuses to be disbanded and the Librarians are to rejoin the rank and file. They are also not to ever use their powers.

Yes, but Jonson was probably somewhere at the other end of the galaxy when McNeill wrote that, so Jonson probably only remembered the edict from the Thousand Sons Index Astartes article, where Librarians where explicitely allowed.

[Kol Saresk]

Since at the Conference at Nikea, part of Mortarion's testimony was that one of his Death Guard lines was broken by a charge of Khorne Bloodcrushers. It wasn't a possibility, it was reality. Horus revealed in Horus Rising that they Imperium has known all along that there were "xenos" in the warp, but "that they were no real threat" unless they found someone like Jubal. And that was post-Nikea. In Descent of Angels, the story ends with a daemon having to be banished by Librarians. And that was pre-Nikea, as made obvious by the presence of Librarians using their ranks.

And yes, the Conference was before The Razing. Which is why it should have sent off a light bulb "Hey, maybe I should change my mind.

Actually, according to A Thousand Sons, the daemons of the warp were already eating away at a hole in the webway. And since Magnus was unknowingly doing the work of Tzeentch, it is actually still the machinations of the Chaos Gods that allowed them to assault Terra from the direction of the Webway portal. However, the Emperor in all of his mighty wisdom, does not give Magnus the benefit of the doubt. Instead, he sends the Wolves to bring Magnus to Terra in order to exact punishment for breaking the Edict of Nikea, not once believing that his favorite son could ever turn Traitor.

All Guilliman and the Lion had to do was just see daemons post-Edict and the lightbulb went off in their heads "Hey, our psykers could really be useful in this situation." And they weren't under 24/7 daemonic assault as far as I am aware.

Actually Napoleon went into Russia with 400,000 troops. He went into Moscow, the battle of which was his most costly. The Russians burned Moscow to the ground rather than let him keep it. Because he would rather lose Russia than lose France, Napoleon retreated just in time to say hello to Russian winter, something his troops were unprepared for. All in all, his forces crossed the Berezina River with less than 40,000 troops in November 1812. That is a tactical blunder. Well more specifically it is a series of tactical blunders that resulted in the annihilation of just over 90% of his "Grande Armee". So I stand by what I said.

  On 8/17/2013 at 10:41 PM, Legatus said:

Legatus, on 17 Aug 2013 - 18:45, said:

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Legatus, A Thousand Sons says that the Edict(as spoken by the Emperor) orders that all Legion Librariuses to be disbanded and the Librarians are to rejoin the rank and file. They are also not to ever use their powers.

Yes, but Jonson was probably somewhere at the other end of the galaxy when McNeill wrote that, so Jonson probably only remembered the edict from the Thousand Sons Index Astartes article, where Librarians where explicitely allowed.

Actually since he said that he was going to reinstate the Librarians and Nemiel reminded him that the Edict prevented the reinstatement of Librarians, the Lion was fully aware of what McNeill wrote.

[Augustus]

@Legatus The Lion gave orders to Corswain to find Russ while he set off to Macragge

 

Anyone seen Crimson Tide? That's what I am reminded of when I look at the head chopping incident.

[Captain Idaho]

It'll be interesting to see if Russ, Sanguinius, the Lion and even perhaps Khan end up in some grand sheme with Guilliman.

 

I've got a feeling Guilliman will find a way to break through the Ruinstorm for some of his forces, notably Sanguinius and the Khan...

[DarKnight]

Guilliman actually did use Librarians on Calth against the Posessed Word Bearers & Daemons.

[Kol Saresk]

  On 8/19/2013 at 1:43 AM, DarKnight said:

Guilliman actually did use Librarians on Calth against the Posessed Word Bearers & Daemons.

Where? I know there was that one in the Loken series that decided to use his powers, but IIRC he did that on his own intiative. All Guilliman said in Know No Fear was that he believed that someone had wanted the Edict passed so they would have a harder time fighting warp entities.