Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Grimdarkness]

I don't see why the Emperor would have killed the Thunder Warriors. Personally, if I thought they were expendable, I would have just used them up rather than "Hey, you won me my greatest victory! Die."

 

Nemiel's death was caused by Nemiel doing his job as the Redemptor, or Chaplain, enforcing the Edict of Nikea. The Lion could have just smashed him up and then threw him into the brig instead of just killing him.

Right a primarch with suspected control issues stopping before killing one of his son's for not following blindly. Could you imagine the hersay if the thunder warriors had lived that long tough s.o.b's that they where could have made it a heck of a lot worse or on the other hand stopped it before it started. 

[Conn Eremon]

Nemiel's death was unnecessary. He could have been corrected, reprimanded, even stripped of rank or banished back to Caliban.

 

The Thunder Warriors were incomplete and dying off. When their use was no longer required, they rebelled (can't blame them). What response is there for the Emperor? They wouldn't surrender, not when nearing death's door. What would they do? They're warriors, bred to live and die in battle. They would never accept a peaceful death. The Emperor gave them a warrior's death, blooding his new warriors in the process.

 

Cold, heartless. Not senseless.

[Kais Klip]

Though I never had the opportunity to invest attention in Nemiel (or the First Legion for that matter) his death is right up there in one of the most tragic moments in my eyes. From his stance we can see that Nemiel was simply not going to budge on the issue; Nemiel's death on that deck was the First Legion's Istvaan, an Istvaan that the Ultramarines avoided through reason.

 

I do believe that had he been given more time he would draw his blade on the Lion and would have actively fought against the order, rather than just refusing to carry it out. That's why his death is entirely justified and tragic (in truest sense of the word); as a brother-redemptor he would have done everything in his power to follow the Edict through in an unwavering display of loyalty, loyalty that would have been misguided in any other role.

 

His existence, as a brother-redemptor, was to prevent the re-integration of legion librarians, and being astartes I do not believe any chaplain should have survived said re-integration; at the end of your decision your legion either has "chaplains" or "librarians". 

 

I do wish this decision of Lion's - and those of other legions - was more focused upon in the series. It would have added another micro environment of sacrifice, this time mid level inter-legion, as opposed to the extremes of brother vs brother and species vs species; Istvaan and the XX's apparent decision, respectively. This would play toward and further the central issue of the Heresy; the prioritization of loyalty.

 

To that end, I would have written Lion killing all his brother-redemptors. 

[Adra'Melek]

Some of the Thunder Warriors were mentally unstable (according to Betrayal). Also, the insurrectionists (potentially including the Thunder Warriors) "slaughtered" the rulers of a prison colony and free 3,000,000 prisoners for rioting and mob violence. Not really needless executions.

 

I don't have my copy with me but from memory wasn't Namiel's death more a case of the Lion lashing out in anger rather than an execution. I seem to remember him regretting it instantly.

[Kol Saresk]

Well yeah, if you fought and bled your entire life to find out that not only are you expendable, but made to die, you'd probably go crazy too. And not everyone in a penal colony is a prisoner. Look at Australia. :D But seriously, if my notes are correct, they were referred to as indentured inhabitants, not prisoners. Aka, slaves. There weren't just prisoners there. And the War Hounds slaughtered all of them. If there innocent women there, slaughtered. Children, slaughtered. Any surviving guards hiding out, slaughtered. Cerberus wasn't executed, it was butchered. Besides, people are animals. There will always be a riot when you can stir them up like a hornet's nest with just words. Why shouldn't it happen when a hated leader is killed?

 

I don't recall regret, but the Lion was going to release the Librarians from the Edict of Nikea. Nemiel, being the Redemptor(Chaplain), did his job and said that the Lion cannot dissolve an Edict direct from the Emperor. And then his head flew out of the ball park. A flash of anger of being disobeyed and a brother-Redemptor who won him a Forgeworld from the Sons of Horus was dead for obeying Imperial Law, the same law the Lion said he would uphold. Depending on your point of view, you can say that Nemiel was executed. From the other, a pointless death that could have been avoided.

[Augustus]

I think many of you forget that Nemiel was drawing his weapon on the Lion. I think the Lion acted instinctively to a predator like he would in the wild.

[Kol Saresk]

Considering how easily the Lion killed Nemiel, disarming him with nonlethal action would have been no problem at all. Nut that's the crux of why it was senseless, the Lion didn't truly act. He saw defiance against him and like an animal, he eliminated that defiance with extreme prejudice. That's why Comrac has been saying it was a senseless killing. There was no true purpose to it other than asserting authority. Of course, the other way to look at it is that instead of Nemiel doing his job and trying to prevent the Lion from breaking one of the Emperor's Edicts, Nemiel instead decided to go Traitor against the Lion and the Lion went "Me smash!" before the dissent could spread.

[Adra'Melek]

I originally typed "slaves" and changed it to "prisoners" :) Whatever they were when they were freed they (no idea how many) were violently rioting and the normal troops couldn't retake control. Who's to same any innocents after days (assuming it was at least days if not weeks, months, etc) of mob violence. Perhaps the only ones left were the ones that had been brutalising the others. Of course we have very little information and all that is based on a loyalist account written a couple of hundred years after the Heresy (I think).

 

I've never bought the idea that the Thunder Warriors were made to die. It doesn't make logically sense in the follow of the story. As far as I know the only source for this was from two in game sources (in a book full of large inconsistencies and the old "ripping a spine through a Custodes armour" nonsense") which are notoriously unreliable.

 

I see it as MUCH more likely that the Thunder Warriors were simply a step towards the marines. Made too big and strong and even modified genetics couldn't cope with the extra workload. The next lot were made smaller and more stable. Some TW needed putting down (I imagine) which would lead to stories of them being killed. Others would just drop dead from no obvious reason. I also imagine that the dead rate in battle was probably quite high. The Astartes were clearly introduced during the Unification wars so fighting was still going strong. The main point about this is if the flaws were deliberately put in...way would they need replacing at all? Just keep the flaws out and carry on. They were individually more potent than Astartes after all.

 

However that is off topic so you're not allowed to rebut reply :) (edit: that didn't work)

 

Regarding Namiel I'd call in suicide by Primarch rather than execution (forgot about the drawing of his weapon).

[Kol Saresk]

Technically, we've been off-topic since page 2. :D

 

Well, I agree that I don't think they were intentionally made to die, but at the same time, if one of them could figure out how to survive long enough to fix what was wrong with their genetics, then the Emperor could definitely have put forth some effort. But He didn't. Instead, the Emperor did to them what Horus, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Angron did at Istvaan III.

 

That is what I meant when I said they were made to die. They were a stepping stone. The Emperor had no intention of keeping them past the Unification Wars. Once he got what he needed, well that's why their deaths were senseless. Or rather, wasteful.

 

But yeah, Nemiel's death was unnecessary by any stretch of the word.

[Captain Idaho]

Fear to Tread has Horus (of all people but at least pre Heresy) remarking on his horror at the thought of a Primarch killing his own Legionnaires.

 

And sure it could have been the predator reaction to a weapon/threat but that just tells us just how out of control the Lion was.

 

I find it delicious to see the Lion being fearsomely against any rival to the Emperor yet isn't above going against his edicts himself. It's almost like the Lion would have been okay with Guilliman's plan for an unremembered empire if he was the centre of it...

[daveNYC]

I think many of you forget that Nemiel was drawing his weapon on the Lion. I think the Lion acted instinctively to a predator like he would in the wild.

 

From what we've seen of the various primarchs' speed of thought, reflexes, damage resistance, unless Nemiel was hopped up on 40k Red Bull and the weapon he was drawing was a rabid Honey Badger with a vortex grenade in its mouth, The Lion was in no danger.

[Greyall]

I fail to see how trying to make Nemiel's killing rational is of any point when the point itself is that it wasn't rational.

 

The Lion is an Alpha leader to its pack. He regards the Emperor as supreme but is absolute in his intentions and orders.

 

A little runt defied him so he whistled the guy's head away. It makes perfect sense from an animalistic point-of-view. Which is - and that's one of the few things this thread seems to agree upon - the Lion's tragedy: an animal aiming to rule a human empire.

[Captain Idaho]

Like your verbalisation of our interpretation there. Very concise and makes the point of his grest flaw perfectly.

[Adra'Melek]

No wonder you're a Night Lord Kol_Saresk if you equate not fixing the Thunder Warriors (if there was a way other than continually harvesting genetic material from others to replace the failures in their systems) with launching a surprise planet killer attack on your brother soldiers, then proceed to slaughter the survivors with overwhelming odds and finally bombard the planet (again) from space.

 

:)

[Wade Garrett]

Arik Taranis was able to come up with something like a solution after about a week of studying Astartes gene seed. Which rather shoots down the "It couldn't be done" arguements.

 

I don't see why the thought of the Emperor building planned obsolescence into his terror weapons is so hard to swallow. With Terra conquered and production of the much more controllable Legiones Astartes underway, who needs an army of hyperviolent madmen hanging around? It's like the post Angron World Eaters...would there have been any place for them in the Imperium once the Great Crusade ran its course?

[daveNYC]

I fail to see how trying to make Nemiel's killing rational is of any point when the point itself is that it wasn't rational.

 

The Lion is an Alpha leader to its pack. He regards the Emperor as supreme but is absolute in his intentions and orders.

 

A little runt defied him so he whistled the guy's head away. It makes perfect sense from an animalistic point-of-view. Which is - and that's one of the few things this thread seems to agree upon - the Lion's tragedy: an animal aiming to rule a human empire.

 

He's not an animal looking to rule a human empire, he's Rainman trying to cope with the fact that The People's Court has been canceled.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

There would of been a place for them if they had their aggression implants removed (bet that makes getting through a metal detector abit easier i may add) But the astartee may of gone the way of the thunder warrior, if it had not of been for the fact his sons now lead these ultimate warriors and would all object to the destruction of their legions, (moving swiftly on before i add a brick wall of text to the status of the astartee in a non hostile imperium) 

 

I do believe though that it is hard to rationalize a primarch, as they are hyper developed beings made from a demi god, of course they are going to know their own self worth and value and lord it over their equals/brothers/ fellow human beings the problem is they all come from different walks of life and have been psychologically conditioned/damaged to become great leaders/warriors/survivalists/theorists/scholars required to lead by example and defend a universe they have been lead to believe needs them.    

 

I personally think The Lion's issue is having being subjected to the harsh conditioning of his former home world, tied hand in hand with the fact he had personally established new order and private dominion over his birth planet through his own self conquest, manner of secrecy and like many other legions unrelenting duty and conditioning to respect the chain of command had lead him to become inflated with a (sometimes rightly justified) feeling of self worth, he shares a trait with Lorgar in that he is in some respects childish, happy to linger in the lime light of success but unrelentingly hostile to those who would critique him  (including those who had formally praised him) even it was for his self development.

 

His level of self accomplishment is very high as we all know, yet his level or craving for self recognition to become the new Warmaster bordered on the fanatical, the same way a child/head strong youth rushes to become a master of something they have yet to fully understand, blaming others as he is so blinded by his own self appointed self level of greatness to see how he could of faltered, 

 

For example, he secured the titans/ warmachines essential to Horus's plan of assaulting the loyalists/imperium with a hand full of marines which was truly an impressive feat by any ones standards but rather than re consolidate his position of power he so eagerly gave these weapons away to Pertuabo, a brother he thought would support him to become a new warmaster if he gave him the toys he wanted, so when he gets flipped of by Pertuabo rather than consider advice and guidance from his own legion he then decides to over react (which is quite justified considering what he just lost) but he does this by venting his frustration on his own men, (or man) eager to act for the better but scorning those who would knock him.  This could be interpreted as both his strength and his weakness, as when the Lion acts he has always achieved what he has set out to do (to some degree) but is ignorant/unaware of the damage he has dealt to his allies in the process.

 

Overall the Lions strength is his weakness, his is magnificent but he knows he is which is why he over reacts when he gets hit by failure.

 

I would love to believe that the lion could of been appointed to the rank of Warmaster or was the equal/better of Horus, but even though he would of won may great victories for the Imperium he would of also messed up a lot in the process and would of had no brothers to comfort or re assure him and those closest to  him (Q.E.D Luther and his turn to chaos) would of suffered for his arrogance ergo he would of been more of a tyrant than a leader to those who did not share his mindset/ singular vision. 

 

Or that's how I see it anyway, maybe with the Big E's love and his brothers support he could of become more, but i'm guessing that would of also undone his key character traits which we have come to respect/admire or loath. 

[Conn Eremon]

Of course the World Eaters would be wanted after the Great Crusade! Where else would the new coliseums get their main attractions?

[Augustus]

If you draw a weapon or disobey a "lawful" order in a time of war, in the US your sentence can be death.

 

We can debate the lawful order thing. But he did draw a weapon on a superior officer, thus his death sentence was carried ;)

Shocked? Yes.

[Captain Idaho]

That's not really relevant:

 

Fear to Tread has Horus (of all people but at least pre Heresy) remarking on his horror at the thought of a Primarch killing his own Legionnaires.

 

 

The expectation and accepted practice is already established. The Lion has broken it.

[Kol Saresk]

If you draw a weapon or disobey a "lawful" order in a time of war, in the US your sentence can be death.

 

We can debate the lawful order thing. But he did draw a weapon on a superior officer, thus his death sentence was carried ;)

Shocked? Yes.

Actually, in 40K, there would be no debate. The Edict of Nikea is a law that strictly prohibits the use of Librarians within the Space Marine Legions. The Lion gave an order that went against that law. As Redemptor, part of Nemiel's

orders, part of his station's duties, were to enforce the Edict of Nikea.

 

Nemiel had two orders to follow: the Edict of Nikea which was spoken by the Emperor's own mouth and the Lion's order to basically disobey the Emperor by reinstating the Librarians. Breaking the Edict was punishable by death. Nemiel was obeying his Emperor-given, lawful order to punish those who would break those laws.

 

The direct comparison woul be if a CO gave an order that went against U.S. military laws, a MP reminded him that it was illegal and he'd have to do something about it and the CO killed him.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Personally, I think it's just because Nemiel is a terrible character and they wanted to remove him in a dramatic way and replace him with a better character: Corswain

 

Or its just setting up a reason for Zahariel to betray Jonson. This said, however, it is clear that Lion regrets his impulsive act and would probably want to go back and correct the mistake. It is a mistake, and for better or worse, it will haunt him and those who knew Nemiel. If we analyse the act, its a backhand. He slaps Nemiel and the blow is so strong it takes of his head. 

 

Should he have struck an officer? Probably not

Did he intend to kill him? Perhaps, or perhaps it was merely a mistake. Personally, I don't think he intended to do so.

[Conn Eremon]

To reiterate what Kol said, a commissar was killed by his colonel for calling him out on defying their Lord General's edict.

 

Bohemond has a point, though. The Lion reacted impulsively, he might not have actually tried to kill Nemiel.

 

Which doesn't really help the Lion's case.

[Kol Saresk]

In the first two Dark Angel HH novels(by Mitchell Scanlon and Mike Lee), Nemiel was actually a decent character that, in the first novel, was used to show that even the natives that were loyal to the Primarch were iffy. In the second novel, Nemiel was going to be opposite of Zahariel and that he would remain loyal to the Lion while Zahariel would end up walking his own path. But then we get The Lion by Gav Thorpe. Nemiel becomes a blockhead. Earlier, we see that his ultimate loyalties lie with the Lion foremost. Now, he has apparently taken his office to the point that he is willing to pick his loyalty to his Emperor-given duty over his Primarch, something that contrasts with his earlier portrayals. However, you are right. This was done to put Corswain up on a higher pedestal, something that was unneeded as Corswain had been up on a pedestal ever since he drove a sword through a Primarch and survived to tell the tale in Savage Weapons by A D-B.

 

Plot-wise, the death was unnecessary. Nemiel could have been left alone and then he and Zahariel and Nemiel would have been the brothers caught on opposite sides of the war. Fluffywise, his death was senseless. It did nothing other than make the Lion look paranoid and half-way stupid and not to mention hypocritical since he spends the novella preaching loyalty to the Emperor but then kills someone who said they should stay loyal to the Emperor and not break His laws in a fit of "Lion smash!"

 

Personally, I would have preferred to see the divergent stories between Nemiel and Zahariel continue until their reunion when the Lutherites attack the Dark Angels.

[Conn Eremon]

Interestingly, the Lion is one of the Primarchs that doesn't refer to his Marines as his sons. Little brothers, he calls them. He has no paternal feelings for his men. He is an older rival asserting dominance.

 

Which is too bad. Remove Nemiel's murder/execution and we have a more down to earth Primarch. One who saw himself as a first among equals.