Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[High MarshalGR]

If you draw a weapon or disobey a "lawful" order in a time of war, in the US your sentence can be death.

We can debate the lawful order thing. But he did draw a weapon on a superior officer, thus his death sentence was carried

Shocked? Yes.

Actually, in 40K, there would be no debate. The Edict of Nikea is a law that strictly prohibits the use of Librarians within the Space Marine Legions. The Lion gave an order that went against that law. As Redemptor, part of Nemiel's

orders, part of his station's duties, were to enforce the Edict of Nikea.

Nemiel had two orders to follow: the Edict of Nikea which was spoken by the Emperor's own mouth and the Lion's order to basically disobey the Emperor by reinstating the Librarians. Breaking the Edict was punishable by death. Nemiel was obeying his Emperor-given, lawful order to punish those who would break those laws.

The direct comparison woul be if a CO gave an order that went against U.S. military laws, a MP reminded him that it was illegal and he'd have to do something about it and the CO killed him.

Pretty accurate. Nemiel followed the chain of command as Lion should have done himself (thus avoiding to give an order directly contradicting the edict of Nikea), but all he got was his death. In this case, the Lion broke the chain of command himself and disrespected an order from his superior. Kinda simple to see how arrogantly he went there... He punished someone doing his duty by executing him. Awesome.

[Captain Idaho]

Interestingly, the Lion is one of the Primarchs that doesn't refer to his Marines as his sons. Little brothers, he calls them. He has no paternal feelings for his men. He is an older rival asserting dominance.

Which is too bad. Remove Nemiel's murder/execution and we have a more down to earth Primarch. One who saw himself as a first among equals.

I've heard many descriptions of the Lion, but I've not often heard him described as down to earth!

[Conn Eremon]

He isn't, but we see signs of how he could have been.

[Greyall]

Mileage may vary. What you see as down to earth, I see as detached. The Lion actively shuns the closing of bonds with his Marines.

 

For the most part, a Primarch is supposed to see his Legionnaires as sons - and infants at that, such is the discrepancy in terms of strength, intelligence, etc.

 

I'm not going to outright state it, since there are exceptions, but I don't rule out a connection between Primarch-Legionnaire bonding and choice of sides in the Heresy war. Let's see (and mind, this isn't a literal father-son relationship, it's the military):

 

Loyalists

 

Guilliman: Father-figure, though not in a very warm way

The Lion: Heck no! Even his "brothers" thing seems forced at times

Dorn: Father-figure (Top 3?)

Corax: Not enough data, but I'd lean towards father-figure

Vulkan: Father-figure, in an almost literal way

Sanguinius: Father-figure (and actually mother-figure, too, so strong is the connection to his men)

Khan: Not enough data, not surprised if the Khan doesn't fit the bill, his Legionnaires may not even want a father figure

Ferrus: I'd say he isn't a father-figure, but I'm not sure

Russ: Father-figure (in a pack, he who kicks the most ass...though he's genuinely loved by his men)

 

Traitors - Before the Heresy

 

Horus: I don't know, honestly, Horus seemed to run the place as a military leader, perhaps too calculating to be a Father-figure, but I won't rule him out

Fulgrim: Father-Figure - very much so

Kurze: No, I don't think so, though he does seem to notice that himself and regret it to some extent

Angron: Heck no!

Perturabo: Meh...I'd say he's the Guilliman of the traitors. Even more detached than Bluey, but enough of an example to his men.

Alpharius/Omegon: Not enough data at all

Magnus: Father-figure - very much so

 

 

No clear connection, perhaps, but the champions are overwhelmingly on the loyalist side, with Russ, Sanguinius, Vulkan and Dorn there. Fulgrim and Magnus are the most fatherly of the traitors, methinks.

 

Back on the Lion, his complete ineptitude and not down-to-earthiness attitude is further proven by his very poor decision to send half a Crusade force home for no distinct reason without a thought to what it would do to those men's morale. Down to earth implies a great degree of common sense and, often, well established social values (not skills, necessarily, but a solid basis). The Lion is devoid of this. He's extremely self-centered on account of being a survivour.

[Conn Eremon]

I agree with that what you said of the Lion, he is detached. What I had said was that they had shown us the potential the Lion had of being more down to earth, not that he is. Imagine if the camaraderie didn't feel forced. That is a running theme for the Heresy, though. What could have been.

 

That said, you got a lot of fathers up there I never recall calling them sons or having a paternal aspect to their personality, while skipping over some who do. Which actually made me realize that, even though the father-son thing was my default view of Primarchs and their Legions, those that actually fall into that category are heavily in the minority and fall equally on both sides of the Heresy.

[Kol Saresk]

Greyall: Corax and Mortarion are messiah figures. They are unique that instead of being found by one faction on a planet and then leaingthat faction to victory, their lot lay with the slaves. So as each one made freedom possible for the slaves, it went beyong "You're the greatest leader we've ever known" to "All praise him!" In the case of Barbarus, it was a very fanatical relationship. That was why mortarion sought to get rid of mostly Terrans; The Barbarus Death Guard felt the exact same way about him as the Word Bearers felt about Lorgar.

[Wade Garrett]

I disagree, Kol.

 

Corax was originally raised by the prisoners of Deliverance, he had his moral compass being tuned a certain way from the get go.

 

Mortarion was shaped from infancy by an inhuman necromancer, yet he looked upon his father's kingdom, said "This is not right!" then took up his scythe on behalf of the oppressed. It's very easy to imagine him sneering at the Raven, so quick to strike down the tyrannical Tech Guilds and yet so blind to the Emperor's far greater sins.

[Kol Saresk]

And Jesus was raised by Mary and John and debated scriptures with Jewish priests. Humble beginnings and all that.

 

I'm not comparing Corax to Mortarion. I'm pointing out what their sons think of them. Both the Death Guard and the Raven Guard see their Primarchs as their respective messiahs, saviours, heroes, champions of freedom, truth and the Imperial way of life. The specifics don't matter, its the relationship. Mortarion led the human slaves to freedom on Barbarus. Coincidentally, Corax did the same thing on Deliverance. Both are regarded as the reason for that freedom.

[Wade Garrett]

Fair enough.

 

Mortarion interests me because he is (as far as I know) the only Primarch who had already turned on a father figure long before the Heresy was a scribble in Erebus's journal.

 

I really wish someone like ADB, Dan Abnett, or even Graham Mcneil would give us a "proper" book about the Death Lord and his Legion, Flight of the Eisenstern was a major letdown in that regard.

[Greyall]

In retrospective, that was a pretty simplistic label to apply on my part. I guess something can be said of some traitor Primarchs' lack of connection to their Legionnaires, but then there are a bunch of truly fatherly figures that just fell from grace and joined the heretics.

 

@Cormac Airt: very much agree, the Lion systematically shows us how his potential slips away due to detachment and unadaptation. Apart from my inability to picture him as blonde, the Lion is one of my dearest Primarchs and clearly on the upper tier of the bunch but, at this point, his contribution to the loyalist cause might very well take a downward turn, what with being late to Terra and all. Let's hope this story is well told, it's one of the most tragic in the Heresy.

[High MarshalGR]

Nice point there Greyall. Because of that, I just found a connection that seems logical to me: What do you expect from the sons of traitors? They betrayed the ideal they originally started to follow for various reasons, why expect their sons to be loyal to them? I would say it's like asking from a whore to be loyal to her man. Exceptions do exist however, meaning there are Primarchs on the traitor side that are indeed father figures in their own way. 

 

As far as Mortarion goes, let's quote some things:

 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Mortarion

 

 

 The stranger commented that even Mortarion and his Death Guard were having trouble pacifying the final warlord, and offered a challenge. If Mortarion could defeat the Overlord, the stranger would leave. If not, Mortarion had to swear fealty to the stranger and the Imperium of Man he represented.

Ignoring the protests of his Death Guard, Mortarion left alone to confront his adoptive father, motivated by a compulsion to prove himself to the stranger below. The confrontation was brief. The air surrounding the Overlord's fortress was so poisonous, that parts of Mortarion's armour began to rot. He collapsed at the gates of the Overlord's citadel, bellowing challenges. The final thing Mortarion saw before he blacked out into unconsciousness was the Overlord of Barbarus coming to kill him, then the stranger leaping between the two and slaying the Overlord with a single sword thrust.

When he recovered, Mortarion swore fealty to the stranger, who revealed himself to be Mortarion's father, the Emperor of Mankind. 

 

When we talk about resilience, if I am to take resilience as a spiritual feature, it would mean that Mortarion should have been able not to be persuaded by Horus. Why? Because he is supposed to be steadfast and resilient. That for me creates a duty of staying true to your oaths, being spiritualy resilient as well as physically. So, while i do think he is resilient, he might not be as resilient as the story promotes. Really interesting figure, no offence there. just food for thought.

[Greyall]

I've yet to understand why Mortarion joined Horus, precisely due to that vaunted resilience of his.

 

Perhaps he harbored some resentment for the Emperor, since the Big E ended up saving the day in Barbarus.

[High MarshalGR]

I've yet to understand why Mortarion joined Horus, precisely due to that vaunted resilience of his.

 

Perhaps he harbored some resentment for the Emperor, since the Big E ended up saving the day in Barbarus.

 

Pretty likely. But my question is the same as yours. Is the grudge of being saved and not being able to do everything as you wish enough to make you sh1t on your oath, betray your own men and betray them as well (loyalists from Death Guard on the Istvaan massacre) while all they do is honour the oath you gave without being forced? Shouldn't you protect the ones who are indeed resilient and are your "sons" instead of sending them to a trap to leave them die, along with Nathaniel Garro, a captain who he supposedly appreciated.

 

 

On the day of Mortarion’s coronation as Primarch, a good majority of the XIV Legion had been of Garro’s stock, men born on Terra or within the confines of the Sol System, but slowly that number had dwindled, and as new recruits joined the Death Guard's fold they came only from Barbarus. But by the last days of the Great Crusade in the early 31st Millennium, only a comparative handful of Terrans remained in the Legion. In his darkest moments, Garro imagined a time when there would be none of his kinsmen left amongst the XIV, and with their deaths the traditions of the old Dusk Raiders would finally fade away. He feared that moment, for when it came to pass he knew that something of the Legion’s noble character would die as well.

 

And also, is it resilience that leads you to slowly erase what is the traditions, the soul and beauty, the unique identity of your "sons"? I have to be kinda cautious on the use of the term "resilient".

[Greyall]

Well, I'm sure some degree of Terran-Primarchlander attrition existed even among some of the more 'civilized' Legions, it's a human thing - though obviously nonsensical. Even nomadic Legions like the World Eaters had it (though all they need is an excuse to go to the pit and scream a number before the word 'blood').

 

I actually don't think you are abusing the term, Mortarion's story strikes me as one of almost ridiculous irony around resilience. He prided himself on it. He passed it on to every one of his sons. And then he betrayed his oath to the Emperor (but we're still to find out why, if I recall correctly) and went from 0 to trauma when Nurgle took a dump inside his ship, all while Typhon just soaked it in.

[Conn Eremon]

Like with Angron, Mortarion harbored anger over how the Emperor arrived at his homeworld. First, he is pissed some other entity simply shows up and begins to replace him as the saviour. When he tries to show the stranger up, the stranger shows him up. It all sounds petty and jealous to me, but it was this that provided the crack in his resiliency that led to his fall. He wasn't just seen as a saviour, he had a saviour complex. The Emperor showed up and out-savioured him.

[Greyall]

It says tons about Vulkan's character that he's probably the nicest Primarch around when the Emperor saved him while showing him who had the biggest Salamander of the two (if you know what I mean).

[Conn Eremon]

Ha ha. But then, the Emperor chose to lose in favor of saving Vulkan. Vulkan chose to accept that as a victory regardless. With Mortarion, the Emperor chose to win, saving Mortarion in the process. Mortarion was too busy hacking up divine lungs to choose anything, at that point. When he was, momentum had gotten away from him. He was offworld, surrounded by "sons." Like with Angron, it was too late.

 

And with Angron, the Emperor just chose not to bother.

[Greyall]

As any father worth his salt would have done, if I may say so. Not to say Angron's resentment isn't due.

 

Mortarion's, on the other hand...It's also kind of puzzling, hasn't the Emperor ever thought about talking to his sons about this kind of issues? He disguised himself and followed Vulkan to the dino-world, so I'm sure he at least had the time, but with deities, you never know...

[Dragon Claw]

For me the Nemiel incident is the last in a long line of betrayals that causes the Lion to snap.

 

Initially we have the populace of Sarosh who after playing all nice and desperately want to become part of the Imperium, honest, we just have to finish this paperwork first, turn out to be warp-worshiping freaks and the leader pretty much spits in the Lion's face before trying to murder him with an improvised nuke.

 

Secondly, and most importantly, we have Luther's betrayal in almost allowing the nuke plot to succeed in order to take the Lion's place. Now its never explicitly stated in the book but it's fairly clear in his following actions that Luther either confesses of his actions to the Lion or the Lion somehow sniffs out the truth.

 

This is a devastating blow for the Lion, Luther was after all his father in all but name, raising him from boyhood(which is confirmed by the passage where Luther recollects finding the Lion, saying how he saw a small boy naked as a babe that barely reached his saddle), and then later his best friend and confidant, the only man who was supposed to be able to understand and have a conversation on a similar level with the Lion on the whole of Caliban. Luther was also the buffer between the Lion's crucial flaw of being an unsociable hermit in his lonely forest and the rest of the universe, able to translate between the two. Once he is gone the Lion is truly alone, having to try and navigate social waters without a compass.

 

We then have Horus' betrayal, again a massive blow that one of his brothers would turn against the Emperor and the Imperium.

 

He is then also betrayed by Magos Archoi on Diamat who catastrophically cripples the ships that were supposed to be under repair and rearm, leaving them at the mercy of Horus' fleet.

 

We then have Perturabo betraying him by effectively giving the weapons back to Horus that he fought so hard to keep out of his hands.

 

He then gets lumps torn out of him by Kurze, yet another betrayal by a brother.

 

Finally we get to Nemiel. Now by the time we get to The Lion its not clear what's happened with Nemiel and the Lion's relationship but after Luther left he originally turned to Nemiel as his social lightning rod, getting his advice on whether he could trust people and effectively being a surrogate Luther. Now we have a situation where the only solution seems to be to betray a command of the Emperor temporarily(he mentions that they can be punished afterwards if need be) or face failure, with the Lion's lightning fast mind its obvious to him that this is the only way they can fight but he can't understand that his lesser brothers can't come to the same conclusion as quickly and when he sees Nemiel refusing the only path to success he see it as another betrayal, most likely reliving the pain of Luther all over again.

 

The anguish of all the betrayals overcomes him and he snaps, lashing out at Nemiel with all the hatred and pain caused by those previous betrayals fueling an animalistic rage that blinds him to what he has done until it is over. Then with understanding comes guilt and remorse, but also knowledge that the self recriminations and brooding will have to wait until he has saved the ship.

 

It's not some petty act, not a cold and cruel execution to prove something to the legion, it's a pain-fueled mistake that happens within a split second caused by being the last betrayal that broke the camels'(/Lion's) back.

 

It is another chink in the Lion's 'Armour of Trust' and taints every action that comes after, whether that be threatening to wipe out Iron Hands or stabbing Russ in the chest because he believed he slowed their return to Terra or the final, terrible purging of Caliban.

[Wade Garrett]

It isn't that hard to understand why Mortarion joined Horus. Remember, he was raised by the Necromancer of Barbarus to be his heir and strong right arm, a blade in his father's hand, but he renounced it all to fight for the people of Barbarus. Then along comes the Emperor.

 

Mortarion didn't say this, Angron did, but still:

"For each time I wage war against worlds that threaten the Imperium's advance, there comes another time when I am told to conquer peaceful worlds that only wish to be left alone. I am told to destroy whole civilizations and call it liberation. I am told to demand millions of men and women from these new worlds, to make them take up arms in the Emperor's hordes, and I am told to call this a tithe or recruitment, because we are too scared of the truth. We refuse to call it slavery."

 

Death to the False Emperor! Sic semper tyranis!

[Kol Saresk]

He was offworld, surrounded by "sons." Like with Angron, it was too late.

Sounds like a Jerry Springer episode.

 

@Dragon Claw: That sounds fine for Luther, but what about Zahariel and all of the other Dark Angels that were sent home?

[Greyall]

I obviously see the point in Angron's words from a XXIst century point of view, but surely a Primarch with a few years of Great Crusade in his curriculum has seen what happens to worlds who wish to be "left alone". Hop come the Xenos and down they go.

 

Plus, Angron had some legitimacy to feel that way, he was a slave his entire life, treated like a fighting dog. Mortarion was raised as a ruler, whatever the kind. Gaining some values and becoming a revolutionary doesn't mean he has to lose whatever clarity he had. Let's imagine the people of Barbarus didn't want any help from the son of a bloody tyrant (plausible). Wouldn't Mortarion have helped them anyway, wouldn't he have made them see what he truly stood for? If necessary, wouldn't he have silenced whoever kept calling him a traitor?

 

Plus, the people of Barbarus, at least the strongest of the male population, followed him everywhere, proof of his success was always with him.

[High MarshalGR]

Ι think we can form a good and fulfilling answer to our issue Greyall. Let's take in consideration the resentement Mortarion kept when the Emperor eliminated a threat really close to taking his life, along with what you said that he always had the proof of his success in his men, the confirmation of his "heroism". I think they have a common point: Him. He wanted to be the hero alone, he wanted to kill the tyrant alone (even if he couldn't his ego was too big to realize he lived to fight another day), he slowly let the traditions Dusk Raiders form decay and be lost to leave only his traditions alive. He was really famous for his resilience but he didn't really consider hisw oath. I think you and me Greyall both know where this is going judging by the facts of the HH.

[Greyall]

Makes perfect sense, and Mortarion actually refused the Emperor's help at first. Although before today I wouldn't have thought of Mortarion as the proud type. I guess he is one of those personalities whose pride both inflates and stings itself too easily.

 

Though I have little tolerance for any of the traitor Legions' reasons, to be honest...

[Dragon Claw]

 

@Dragon Claw: That sounds fine for Luther, but what about Zahariel and all of the other Dark Angels that were sent home?

 

 

From the text it appears as though the Lion suspects that Zahariel is also culpable somehow, there's a few tracts where it mentions the glares he keeps getting from him. Presumably the Lion either thought that Zahariel was in on the betrayal with Luther or he felt betrayed that Zahariel did not come forward to tell him about it.

 

The only real reason I can see for sending the rest of the chapter back is as a screen to keep the betrayal from the Legion. If only Luther and Zahariel were sent back to Caliban then it would be pretty clear that they were being sent home in some kind of disgrace and cause dissent in the ranks, but by sending a force back under the cover of training new recruits this could mostly be avoided. This seems to work for the most part as well as the main force on crusade don't really seem to give much of a thought about those sent back apart from Nemiel and even he can't be arsed to write a single letter back, only those who were sent back felt hard done by and even they didn't know the true reason they were sent home.

 

The only other reason I can think of for the rest of them being sent home is the Lion had built up quite a long list of grudges by then and wanted to get rid of those high up on the list, something like:

Tereziel - Cut in front of me at the Cafeterium

Rafeziel - Looked at me funny

Azaziel - Sneezed on my best surplice, couldn't get the stain out

Daveziel - Called me Lion-o one time