Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Greyall]

Daveziel - Called me Lion-o one time

 

That's grounds for head-punching...

[Wade Garrett]

I obviously see the point in Angron's words from a XXIst century point of view, but surely a Primarch with a few years of Great Crusade in his curriculum has seen what happens to worlds who wish to be "left alone". Hop come the Xenos and down they go.

 

"To keep the Orkz from bombing the planet into the Stone Age and enslaving its people, it was necessary for us to bomb the planet into the Stone Age and enslave its people."

:p

[Conn Eremon]

Right, even though the two can be comparable in devastation and atrocity, in one humanity has a chance to thrive, rebuild and overcome and the other is Orks. Orks.

[High MarshalGR]

Right, even though the two can be comparable in devastation and atrocity, in one humanity has a chance to thrive, rebuild and overcome and the other is Orks. Orks.

 

I agree to an extent. Why am I not completely agreeing? Because humans have proven themselves to be really different, which extends furthermore to the Legions/Chapters. What I mean is, look at Legions such as the Luna Wolves, Ultramarines and Salamanders. Luna Wolves used the "spear in the enemy'sw throat" approach, saving many lives and collateral damage, Ultramarines functioned in a way itself that caused minimum collateral damage and won the hearts of people, building defences before moving on, and Salamanders still walk among their people when they are not needed by their chapter. 

 

Now, let's look at World Eaters and Space Wolves for example. Far more bloodthirsty and devastating, right (the SW take pride in them being tools of destruction, really honorable)? What I want to say is, devastasion is not a mean every human army uses or have used. And this tells a lot to me about humans and their seemingly endless way of achieving goals, different or the same.

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, all the Loyalist Primarchs were betrayed, some horrifically. Look at what happened at Calth and the worlds put to death, yet Guilliman doesn't betray the laws of the Imperium and execute his men when doing so.

 

And the Lion betrayed Curze first - he Han Soloed him with a distinct lack of warning and honour.

[Greyall]

'If you find yourself in a fair fight...'

 

To be honest (and I think honour is invaluable in one's life), announcing attacks has been shown to lose both duels and wars. He didn't backstab Kurze. I thought right away that Kurze's 'sorry for what?' question was a bit odd for someone with such experience in pragmatic tactics. But then again, Kurze liked the Lion, to a degree, on account of both being borderline predators with a major dark side. In fact, Kurze had no other side and even the Lion didn't go past a shadowy gray.

[Captain Idaho]

Master Splinter said to win unfairly if you need to but the point I made is still valid; he wasn't betrayed by Curze.

[Greyall]

True, the "Surprise! Stomach Stabby!" move irked me a bit, for a knight. But the Lion was a pragmatist in shiny armour - actually black.

[Kol Saresk]

Well didn't they agree to a temporary ceasefire?

[Conn Eremon]

It was decorated with Martian red gold, so yeah, shiny.

 

And while I understand the point about humanity having other avenues, it doesn't mean destruction is never called for. The Ultramarines, I am certain, have put a world to the sword before. Salamanders, too. Of course, they vary on likelihood of destruction, but then they also vary on targets. Look at the Death Guard. Slow and steady brutally massacres entire populations with all kinds of dirty weaponry. Good thing they are nearly exclusive to xenos targets.

[Greyall]

They...were nearly exclusive to xenos =)

 

On the Ultras and Salamanders, yep. Vulkan manages to do it and still remain a loveable chap, of all things.

 

@Kol: not sure I understand what you mean by invoking the ceasefire, mate.

[Gree]

Thing is, all the Loyalist Primarchs were betrayed, some horrifically. Look at what happened at Calth and the worlds put to death, yet Guilliman doesn't betray the laws of the Imperium and execute his men when doing so.

 

No, Guilliman just holds his men back and forms his own little Imperium while Horus marches on Terra. Well-meaning or not, Guilliman was more loyal to the idea of the Imperium than he was to the Emperor. Say what you will about the Lion, but at least he was loyal to the Emperor above all, and didn't care what history would think of him, which is what I really like about him.

 

And no, don't give me the warpstorm excuse, we know that Sanguinius was at Ultramar with Guilliman, yet Sanguinius was also at Terra later, despite the Ruinstorm.

 

Then there is a psychological aspect. Guilliman probably had the best overall upbringing of the Primarchs, on a world many regarded as a paradise, while the Lion was never really raised with human contact in his early years. In many ways he was a creature of the shadows as much as Curze or Corax.

 

Which I honestly do find to be one of the most interesting aspects of the Lion, a man who wears the trappings of a knight yet at heart is as much a paranoid beast as some other Primarchs. I always did think he and Russ had quite alot in common.

[Captain Idaho]

Best upbringing? If you call sent off to a harsh military as a small child until you're 35 a great upbringing, then sure.

 

And you're wilfully ignoring the background material to better suit your opinion, again.

[Gree]

Best upbringing? If you call sent off to a harsh military as a small child until you're 35 a great upbringing, then sure.

 

Compared to literally being raised by wolves, wild beasts, or as a slave or even fostered by inhuman necromancer, then yes, I will certainly assert that Guilliman had the best upbringing in general compared to his brothers.

 

Guilliman underwent harsh military training yes, but he was raised as a prince on Ultramar, which is repeatedly stated to be regarded as a paradise by many in the fluff. Many Primarchs were not so lucky...

 

Certainly, the Lion had a worse childhood than Guilliman, growing up alone in a chaos-infested forest on a deathworld. I don't think anyone seriously claims that the Lion had more pleasant upbringing than Guilliman.

 

 

And you're wilfully ignoring the background material to better suit your opinion, again.

Where have I done that? All I have done is simply cite Black Library novels. Nothing more.

[Captain Idaho]

Fear to Tread, Know No Fear, Mark of Calth, Betrayer and Angel Exterminatus all contradict your assertion that Guilliman held back his Legion deliberately to build an empire, or even what he was doing with Ultramar wasn't sanctioned as the next stage in the Emperor's plans for the Imperium. If you've read these books you would be aware of this information.

 

And I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the Lion having a difficult upbringing and bringing Guilliman into it, aside from an excuse to bash the latter. Lots of Primarchs had a rotten upbringing and they didn't all go and kill their men and disobey the Emperor's Orders.

[Gree]

Know No Fear, Mark of Calth, Betrayer and Angel Exterminatus all contradict your assertion that Guilliman held back his Legion deliberately to build an empire, or even what he was doing with Ultramar wasn't sanctioned as the next stage in the Emperor's plans for the Imperium. If you've read these books you would be aware of this information.

 

None of that contradicts my assertion at all. Now helpfully Rules of Engagement expands on Guilliman's thoughts and intentions for the Imperium Secundus, revealing his intent to hold back the Ultramarines. In addition Fear to Tread reveals that Sanguinius was able to meet up with Guilliman at Ultramar.

 

As far as we currently know (prior to Unremembered Empire being released) Sanguinius, the Blood Angels, possibly the Imperial Fists Retribution Fleet, and other loyalist elements were able to visit Ultramar after their respective delays (Signus, Phall, etc) and still make it to Terra prior to the arrival of Horus's fleet. This suggests that Guilliman and the XIII would have also been able to make it prior to the arrival of Horus (despite the Ruinstorm), which may well have significantly altered the course of the Siege of Terra.

And I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the Lion having a difficult upbringing and bringing Guilliman into it, aside from an excuse to bash the latter. Lots of Primarchs had a rotten upbringing and they didn't all go and kill their men and disobey the Emperor's Orders.

Except they did. Angron, Peraturbo, Curze all went traitor you know. My point was that comparing Lion to Guilliman was not really a good comparison due to their different upbringing and circumstances. If anyone is bashing a Primarch I would venture to say it's you with the Lion.

[Captain Idaho]

You're reading comprehension needs work. You've missed the Ruinstorm, Guillman's counter attack against Angron and Lorgar (2 Legions), the plans of Horus and Erebus to take Guilliman out of the war, Perturabo remarking on Ultramar being the next step on the Imperial vision and all the Heresy novels and information that supports Guilliman as being loyal despite Ultramar existing, indicating it's not out of the ordinary.

 

So o would say yes, your opinion of Guilliman keeping out the war deliberately and empire building is contradicted from multiple sources yet have no sources to quote against them, only your opinion.

 

And the Lion does have those flaws. To ignore them because it's bashing is biased and just silly.

[Dragon Claw]

Thing is, all the Loyalist Primarchs were betrayed, some horrifically. Look at what happened at Calth and the worlds put to death, yet Guilliman doesn't betray the laws of the Imperium and execute his men when doing so.

 

And the Lion betrayed Curze first - he Han Soloed him with a distinct lack of warning and honour.

 

In regards to Curze, fair point, I'll withdraw that one. He still knew Curze had turned from the Emperor but I suppose strictly speaking he did get the first hit in.

 

In regards to the betrayals, while others certainly had their fair share none of them were as close to the heart and devastating as knowing your father figure and best friend wanted you dead. Every time thereafter each betrayal would bring the Lion back to that moment, poking the raw nerve that the only man he really trusted other than the Emperor wanted him dead, if even for only a moment. This is the main catalyst for all of the dark brooding, grudge nursing and inability to trust that we see the Lion develop through the latter history.

 

Perhaps the only other Primarch to come close was Ferrus with Fulgrim, they were known to be the absolute closest of brothers but even they weren't a day in, day out best mate and Ferrus went right off the deep end by the pain of that betrayal when it came to his final moments.

 

With Guilliman, he was never betrayed by someone really close to him. He always suspected that Lorgar held a grudge against him after the chastisement they had enforced and would want to get back at him, he just never believed that it would be taken this far. Which is why about 5 mins after realising Lorgar has done him over he effectively goes 'you bugger' and then gets back to business.

 

I still hold that this wasn't an execution either, an execution is something done with forethought to set an example to others, not an accidental killing followed by remorse.

[Greyall]

Could it be that Guilliman decides to stay home while the other make for Terra? And, to add to that, it wouldn't shock me if the Emperor understood it. He himself held the idea of an Imperium above himself (as evidenced by his sacrifice). The Big E simply knew he was the key to that. Or, rather, the best bet for such.

 

Personally, I'd understand to an extent if an Imperium Secundus was safeguarded, just in case the Siege of Terra failed. After all, the Lion and Russ were supposed to reach Terra on time. Instead, they stopped at a few planets on the way.

[Kol Saresk]

Well since the Emperor's goal was to build the Imperium to safeguard humanity, Guiiliman was actually probably more in line with what the Emperor wwould have wanted than what the other Primarchs did by making sure that the Imperium actually survived the war. What good would it have been if the Caeser survived his empire?

 

Also, Check This Out.

 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/Product/DefaultBL/large/Gates-of-Terra.jpg

 

Because I have a thing about paper, I haven't personally read this e-book, but the synopsis is enough to suggest that Guilliman was not keeping in Ultramar. Events in The Lion proved that as well when he sent the Iron Hands to claim that warp engine. Guilliman may be sitting on the sidelines, but he isn't as passive as everyone thinks. Whether his ambitions are for the greater good or for his greater good, well we'll find out in Unremembered Empire.

@Kol: not sure I understand what you mean by invoking the ceasefire, mate.

I think in Savage Weapons is what I'm talking about. The only HH book I have on me and will have on me for quite some time is Vulkan Lives. So I can't be sure, but IIRC, they had agreed to a temporary ceasefire while they met on Tsalgualsa. I'm just having trouble remembering who broke that ceasefire.

[Captain Idaho]

Well actually Guilliman was really close to Horus. He only counted Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, Dorn and Horus as true friends, and one of them destroyed EVERYTHING he held dear and worked for years to achieve using 2 Legions in a sneak attack.

 

What I'm saying is the Lion is unstable and potentially dangerous in his position, and he hasn't the excuse of being betrayed because others felt the same.

[Gree]

You're reading comprehension needs work. You've missed the Ruinstorm, Guillman's counter attack against Angron and Lorgar (2 Legions), the plans of Horus and Erebus to take Guilliman out of the war, Perturabo remarking on Ultramar being the next step on the Imperial vision and all the Heresy novels and information that supports Guilliman as being loyal despite Ultramar existing, indicating it's not out of the ordinary.

And yet none of that actually contradicts my point, given that all of that occurs before Rules of Engagement. I have already acknowledged the Ruinstorm and then pointed out why that doesn't actually matter because of Sanguinius on Terra. Perturabo's comment again doesn't actually contradict my statement, but rather supports it.

 

Guilliman's counterattack again, doesn't contradict my point at all, as that was evidently before Guilliman's decision to form the Imperium Secendus. Horus's plans to take Guilliman out of the war isn't really relevant to my point either.

 

To be honest you are coming across as being far too defensive, accusing me of trying to bash Guilliman and remarking on my reading comprehension. I admit to dislike Guilliman, but I do try to give all Primarchs a fair overview. In this case I am simply pointing out sources from Black Library that clarify Guilliman's thoughts and intentions after the Battle of Calth.

[Captain Idaho]

Could it be that Guilliman decides to stay home while the other make for Terra? And, to add to that, it wouldn't shock me if the Emperor understood it. He himself held the idea of an Imperium above himself (as evidenced by his sacrifice). The Big E simply knew he was the key to that. Or, rather, the best bet for such.

 

Personally, I'd understand to an extent if an Imperium Secundus was safeguarded, just in case the Siege of Terra failed. After all, the Lion and Russ were supposed to reach Terra on time. Instead, they stopped at a few planets on the way.

No, the decision was made for him by Erebus and his Ruinstorm.

[Gree]

What I'm saying is the Lion is unstable and potentially dangerous in his position, and he hasn't the excuse of being betrayed because others felt the same.

The others do not have the same unbringing as the Lion did though. Not even Russ had the same loneliness in the forests of Caliban, a loneliness that breeds a paranoia and distrust of outsiders. Frankly out of all the Primarchs, Curze may be the only one who understands the Lion quite like that.

 

It's not just merely having a bad childhood, but the psychological factors that predispose a person twords that sort of mindset. You are selling the Lion too short here methinks.

[Captain Idaho]

 

You're reading comprehension needs work. You've missed the Ruinstorm, Guillman's counter attack against Angron and Lorgar (2 Legions), the plans of Horus and Erebus to take Guilliman out of the war, Perturabo remarking on Ultramar being the next step on the Imperial vision and all the Heresy novels and information that supports Guilliman as being loyal despite Ultramar existing, indicating it's not out of the ordinary.

And yet none of that actually contradicts my point, given that all of that occurs before Rules of Engagement. I have already acknowledged the Ruinstorm and then pointed out why that doesn't actually matter because of Sanguinius on Terra. Perturabo's comment again doesn't actually contradict my statement, but rather supports it.Guilliman's counterattack again, doesn't contradict my point at all, as that was evidently before Guilliman's decision to form the Imperium Secendus. Horus's plans to take Guilliman out of the war isn't really relevant to my point either.To be honest you are coming across as being far too defensive, accusing me of trying to bash Guilliman and remarking on my reading comprehension. I admit to dislike Guilliman, but I do try to give all Primarchs a fair overview. In this case I am simply pointing out sources from Black Library that clarify Guilliman's thoughts and intentions after the Battle of Calth.

It's not that I'm defensive Gree, it's because you're making assumptions without any of the facts that the fill the blanks, because it suits your opinion, and we've done all this before and it's tiring.