Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Gree]

It's not that I'm defensive Gree, it's because you're making assumptions without any of the facts that the fill the blanks, because it suits your opinion, and we've done all this before and it's tiring.

 

I'm not really making assumptions. Conjecture certainly, but everything is based on canon statements and information provided by Black Library. Should something new or massive be revealed about Guilliman then I'll accept those new facts. Until then I'm operating on the current information we have.

 

I'm not sure why it's tiring.  I don't believe I've talked that much about Guilliman's treason lately and after all, this is just my opinion and interpretation, just like yours. I understand why you might not really agree with me given you play Ultramarines, but then again I could say the same thing about your comments about the Lion.

[Greyall]

 I'd forgotten about the Ruinstorm, but then how did the other Legions manage to get from Ultramar to Terra?

[Dragon Claw]

Well actually Guilliman was really close to Horus. He only counted Ferrus Manus, Sanguinius, Dorn and Horus as true friends, and one of them destroyed EVERYTHING he held dear and worked for years to achieve using 2 Legions in a sneak attack.

 

What I'm saying is the Lion is unstable and potentially dangerous in his position, and he hasn't the excuse of being betrayed because others felt the same.

 

I agree that the Lion is unstable and potentially dangerous, that's what makes him such an interesting character. He is effectively two personalities in one body, the knight always fighting to keep the beast at bay(kinda reminds me of Vimes from discworld, the watchman battling the darkness inside of him, random digress over).

 

I don't agree that the betrayals aren't an excuse though, for me they're the linchpin of his gradual self-destruction.

[Captain Idaho]

But what information have you got that explains how Sanguinius beat the Ruinstorm yet Corax, Russ and the Lion didn't? What you've done is gone from "Sanguinius with Guilliman, there's an unknown 4 years (or is it 3 at this point), then Sanguinius is at Terra - Guilliman must have been a traitor all along as there's NO reason for him not to be there!"

 

It's assumption. We've mentioned this before in he wake of Rules of Engagement and it's an even thinner assumption now since there are multiple sources that tell us Guilliman doesn't have a traitorous character.

 

I can accept a position of wanting to defend the Primarch you're in to. But the Lion does need to be unstable for much of his background to work really ;)

[Kol Saresk]

It was and it wasn't. Like Gree points out, eventually during the five years between Unremembered Empire and the Siege of Terra, somehow Sanguinius makes it back toTerra.

 

However, currently Guilliman is trapped by the Ruinstorm. But, hehas not been idle. Off the top of my head, I can already name two proxies. The Tetrarch from Iron Within who was last seen escorting Iron Warriors to Terra to help Perturabo-proof the Imperial Palace. And the Iron Hands in The Lion. Guilliman may be trapped, but he is not sitting idle. There is evidence to the contrary, even if it is by proxy. Now, whether or not his intentions are pure, well that could be said of anyone.

 

Menwhile, the Lion just got a toy that allows him simultaneous warp jump of an entire fleet with a precision that would scare even the Eldar, and yet when the Siege happens, he's just "on his way". He could have stopped by Caliban, picked up that army of recruits and then launched just as deadly an ambush on Horus. He could have killed Luther's rebellion in its infancy and stopped the Heresy in just a few, well-coordinated blows. But he's "just on his way and too late for everything".

 

However, I am not going to say that because he was late, he was a Traitor. You know why? Because in the next five years of the Heresy, any number of things can happen to slow him down from Night Haunter and Sevatar blowing up the Invincible Reason and the warp engine to the warp engine just up and dying to any number of things.

 

Same thing with Guilliman. Yes, Sanguinius will somehow get from Ultramar to Terra within the next five years. For all we know he only gets there with 3,000 Astartes because the rest were killed trying to breach the Ruinstorm. Guilliman may have decided to play itself. Or since he still has a large enough Legion to be considered a threat, it could be that he simply spreads out his entire Legion in an attempt to start reclaiming rebel worlds and beating back Traitor forces that were not at Terra. Same thing with the Raven Guard, the Salamanders and the Iron Hands. IIRC, trying to save Imperial citizens is why the Space Wolves were late. Everyone hasa reason. We just don't know what that reason is for some of them.

 

EDIT: I say 5 years because the Heresy is seven years long and at the time of Savage Weapons, itis only two years into the Heresy. Since Savage Weapons, The Lion and Prince of Crows are virtually back to back and nothing that I havepersonally read places the timeline any furtherthan two years, it is safe to infer that we are still two years into the Heresy, thus leaving five years left.

[Gree]

But what information have you got that explains how Sanguinius beat the Ruinstorm yet Corax, Russ and the Lion didn't?

Well, were any of them near the Ruinstorm? I understand Guilliman put out the word for the Lion to join him for Ultramar, but that doesn't mean anything as the Lion refused. Corax's Legion was virtually gone and Russ as I understand it had his own problems with the Alpha Legion.

What you've done is gone from "Sanguinius with Guilliman, there's an unknown 4 years (or is it 3 at this point), then Sanguinius is at Terra - Guilliman must have been a traitor all along as there's NO reason for him not to be there!"

It's assumption. We've mentioned this before in he wake of Rules of Engagement and it's an even thinner assumption now since there are multiple sources that tell us Guilliman doesn't have a traitorous character.

We have entire short story detailing how guilty Guilliman feels and how the Imperium Secundus is ''words of treason'' and suchlike. I would not say that is a ''thin assumption'' at all. That's fairly good conjecture actually. If Sanguinius can go to Terra then there is no excuse why Guilliman is not present, especially when Dorn himself put out the order to do that very same thing.

And we don't really have any sources telling us that Guilliman doesn't have a traitrous character. You don't need to hate the Emperor or worship Chaos to perform treason. Rather I'd say Guilliman's treason was entirely well-intentioned, but treason is still treason, even if Guilliman thinks he's doing it for the greater good.

I can accept a position of wanting to defend the Primarch you're in to. But the Lion does need to be unstable for much of his background to work really

Yes and? I'm not really sure how that's relevant to my statement.

[Captain Idaho]

Like I said Gree; tiring. Your assumptions are based upon 1 bit of information and ignore plenty of others.

[Gree]

Like I said Gree; tiring. Your assumptions are based upon 1 bit of information and ignore plenty of others.

How am I ignoring anything? I fully acknowledge the existence of the Ruinstorm and Guilliman's portrayal in other sources. The problem is that none of those sources really contradict my point at all and thus is simply not relevant to my point.

 

Again, I'm not sure how it's tiring, given I've not really talked about this subject much. Forgive me for saying so, but it seems that you just don't like me talking bad about Guilliman and the Ultramarines.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

But what information have you got that explains how Sanguinius beat the Ruinstorm yet Corax, Russ and the Lion didn't?

Well, were any of them near the Ruinstorm? I understand Guilliman put out the word for the Lion to join him for Ultramar, but that doesn't mean anything as the Lion refused. Corax's Legion was virtually gone and Russ as I understand it had his own problems with the Alpha Legion.

 

 

Actually as was pointed out to me in another thread, at the end of The Lion, the Lion changed his mind and either between The Lion and Prince of Crows or after Prince of Crows, the Dark Angels would indeed go to Ultramar.

 

And actually right now, the only Primarchs we haven't seen doing anything that could be considered treachery in any way, shape or form, are Dorn, Corax, Sanguinius and Vulkan. Lion just claimed a warp engine that allows for virtually simultaneous warp travel as well as fleet coordination during said warp travel and basically said "Screw off!" to anyone who even looks at it the wrong way, whether they be Loyalist or Traitor. Guilliman is currently trapped, last he heard(that we know of) Vulkan, Ferrus and Corax are dead(Know No Fear), which explains why in Rules of Engagement, he was training his Ultramarines to fight against virtually every Legion. Unlike the Lion, he doesn't know who is or isn't loyal and from the looks of it, he's planning on coming out of Ultramar with fists swinging and guns blazing. That's probably the point of Unremembered Empire; reconnaisance so he knows who to fight. Right now, he is preparing to fight everyone and that is treason and he knows it, hence his writing of the words in that story. It's not that he's planning to usurp the throne, it's that he was planning to enter the war by just killing everyone in sight so he would know everyone was dead because he didn't know if the Legions he thought were without Primarchs had wholly retained their loyalty.

[Captain Idaho]

You're always waxing lyrical bashing the Ultramarines and Guilliman, Gree.

 

You're acknowledging the existance of those things but you refuse to accept the implications of the information, instead you're just drawing an conclusion based upon one sentence which ignores context and other information for it to be true.

[Gree]

You're always waxing lyrical bashing the Ultramarines and Guilliman, Gree.

 

I don't really. I may talk about Guilliman from time to time, but I never bash them.

 

Actually I feel honestly offended by your accusation that I'm bashing the Ultramarines.

 

Honestly, I think I'll leave the thread now. This discussion is growing more and more heated between Idaho and me. I have tried to remain as polite as possible and now I'm going to politely back out before I post anything I might regret.

 

Have a good day gentlemen.

[jeremy1391]

As much as I dislike the 40k ultramarines I do really like their 30k incarnation. Gulliman being te logistician of the bunch could have started saving the worlds of the imperium to bring more numbers into the fight for the scourig instead of joining the other 3 legion that were at terra. The traitors attack on terra is with legions that have all done an internal purge. And would logically be down 1/3 of their troops due to internal conflict and combat casualties, plus the night lords and alpha legion weren't wholely present for the siege so that the equivalent of what 4.7 legions at full strength? Whereas the 3 loyal legions would probably be at maybe 2.1 to 2.2 legions worth. Due to the fists only being down 10% from phall and the blood angels down about 25% from signus, an if "half the white scars turn" as it is rumored then the traitors don't have enough marines to win a siege (3:1 is doctrinally accepted) this isn't taking into account CUSTODES or sisters of silence. Which would make sense for Rob to go on a recruiting/ savior mission to be a relief force and hit from the rear. Remember old Gullie is the logistics guy so he is just gonna play the numbers to victory.

Also the Lion and Russ were en route when horus attacked and he started the siege when he did for that reason, 2 less powerful legions defending terra would make his job much easier!

[Captain Idaho]

 

You're always waxing lyrical bashing the Ultramarines and Guilliman, Gree.

 

I don't really. I may talk about Guilliman from time to time, but I never bash them.

Actually I feel honestly offended by your accusation that I'm bashing the Ultramarines.

Honestly, I think I'll leave the thread now. This discussion is growing more and more heated between Idaho and me. I have tried to remain as polite as possible and now I'm going to politely back out before I post anything I might regret.

Have a good day gentlemen.

Probably a good move for both of us to bear in mind in the future, since we clearly end up clashing sooner or later.

[Kol Saresk]

As much as I dislike the 40k ultramarines I do really like their 30k incarnation. Gulliman being te logistician of the bunch could have started saving the worlds of the imperium to bring more numbers into the fight for the scourig instead of joining the other 3 legion that were at terra. The traitors attack on terra is with legions that have all done an internal purge. And would logically be down 1/3 of their troops due to internal conflict and combat casualties, plus the night lords and alpha legion weren't wholely present for the siege so that the equivalent of what 4.7 legions at full strength? Whereas the 3 loyal legions would probably be at maybe 2.1 to 2.2 legions worth. Due to the fists only being down 10% from phall and the blood angels down about 25% from signus, an if "half the white scars turn" as it is rumored then the traitors don't have enough marines to win a siege (3:1 is doctrinally accepted) this isn't taking into account CUSTODES or sisters of silence. Which would make sense for Rob to go on a recruiting/ savior mission to be a relief force and hit from the rear. Remember old Gullie is the logistics guy so he is just gonna play the numbers to victory.

Also the Lion and Russ were en route when horus attacked and he started the siege when he did for that reason, 2 less powerful legions defending terra would make his job much easier!

 

According to the IA articles and a few other various sources, every Traitor Legion but the Alpha Legion are recorded as being there in some sort of presence. However, as you pointed out, we are unsure of the strengths of each Legion and since the point of the Heresy was to claim the Imperium, it wouldn't be wrong to say the Traitor Legions were spread out. After all, the Thramas Crusade was a constant clashing of forces across an entire sector. Both Legions were spread out into various fleets. There was a Word Bearers garrison and an Emperor's Children garrison mentioned in Deliverance Lost. The other survivors of Isstvan V have been completely scattered across the galaxy. Most of the Iron Hands didn't even got to Isstvan V and that means their Legion is simultaenously the most well-off, uncoordinated Legion with the fewest casualties and survivors of the Drop site Massacre.

 

Evidence is being given of the Heresy happening on multiple fronts and Primarchs are actually involved in very few of the battles. This isn't just a war for the galaxy, it is a war that using the entire known galaxy as a battlefield. And I think since that is something that isn't always presented in the books since they usually only focus on one small part, I feel that the scope of the entire Heresy is something we fail to take into account and that leads to things like "Legion X did nothing since nothing was written" or "Legion Y is secretly Traitors because they weren't at the Siege" or "Legion Z was waiting to see who won the Heresy before picking a side". I mean, there are seven years' worth of battles from all over the galaxy taking place. The reality is that we will never see the entire Heresy, just the highlights. It's just too big.

 

The Siege of Terra may have been the fulcrum that would determine the course of the war, but it was hardly the only battle happening.

[Captain Idaho]

Betrayer gives a good impression of the war outside the main events. It's such an awesome book, just get it, no questions asked!

[Kol Saresk]

lol, eventually. i got a look at a friend's copy and took some notes, but most of them were related to the Legions' fluff. I'm saving up for Massacre but since I'm also planning an amry-sized purchase with said copy of Massacre, it might be quite a while before I call myself owner.

[Artemid]

Been kinda lurking this thread on and off.

 

It's been kinda skirted around, but I really must propose that, when we are discussing the Lion as written, we are discussing a character that is horribly flawed and conflicted because he's very poorly written. He's been through three or four authors, several of whom are not really very good - it can be hard to maintain a consistent characterization through that, if there was much of one to begin with. We see the Lion make a number of questionable, very difficult to rationalize decisions (I'm looking at you, Nemiel backhand), and we're forced to try to stitch these together into a coherent whole. I'd argue it's a reasonable thing to suggest this is actually an impossible task as some of the actions are 100% internally inconsistent or, at least, very poorly handled, and we're left with a somewhat broken and internally inconsistent character.

 

It remains to be seen but I suspect this may also happen with the upcoming decision to send "half" the Legion home to Caliban. It's possibly going to be very hard to rationalize this very old piece of fluff with the newer development of the Heresy and the vastly increased numbers we're dealing with these days.

 

 

tl;dr the Lion suffers from poor writing as much as actual character flaws.

[Kol Saresk]

That's a yes and no. From what I have seen of reviews, sometimes what is considered to be bad writing, is writing that the person doing the review doesn't like. I'm not saying you are wrong. There is such a thing as bad writing.

 

But for example, the Blood Angels series. Many people don't like it. And because they don't like it, it automatically means that it was poorly written. No. It was actually written pretty decently. It was just something many didn't like and because they didn't like it, they assumed it was poorly written. Now, let's look at Phalanx. According to some reviews and even many posts on here, many people like the story. But looking at it, you get things like Lysander turning on the Soulspear, but later in the novel, part of the climax is that it shouldn't have been possible for him to use the Soulspear. Another thing was a Crimson Fists Captain showing up in one Chapter with his Company, but the next Chapter, he becomes a Howling Griffons Captain and the Crimson Fists Company magically disappears. That, was poorly written. Prospero Burns. Well written novel. I hate it. I cannot get into it for nothing. I just don't like narrator-overtones. But it was well written. My opinion, does not change that fact.

 

But you are right, multiple authors can make certain things come out rough because each author has his own personal view. Just look at how many different views have shown up just in this thread alone. So things like preconceptions "This author sucks" or "That author can write no wrong" do influence our opinions of what is well written and what is poorly written and that tends to influence our overall opinion of the novel/novella/story.

[Artemid]

I meant "poorly written" from the standpoint of a character being believable, being somewhat internally consistent and rational, etc. They're their own systems in the overall framework of a story. Sometimes the character is just present to fill a particular function in the story (see kinda, the Worf effect), which can be done okay but I feel is usually a sign of heavy-handedness. I'm not really talking about plot holes or other errors or oversights, just characters. If one author puts the character in situation A, and they do X, but then the second author puts him back into situation A, but he does B, there is a significant problem, because the character isn't internally consistent any more. Any time someone is in A, they should always do X, because of the factors of the setting. But the readers are left trying to stitch this all together into a coherent narrative, which at that point is a fundamentally flawed exercise.

 

I'm not saying it's necessarily that, but I do feel it's important to consider, especially when we arguably have the latest author using the main character as a device to kill off another author's character to close off story arcs...

 

edit: I should add, internal consistency/use isn't necessarily dependent on cross-authorship either. It's an unfortunately common occurrence that the author needs to make something happen, so they make a character do it. Even when the character would, normally, never actually do it - the character loses his self and becomes an instrument of the story. It can be hidden, but when it's not, it feels really forced and insincere. I think this is probably what we really have on our hands with the Nemiel death, there just also has been an attempt made to integrate it that was apparently partially successful.

[Conn Eremon]

Artemid isn't entirely wrong. This is something that has had an impact on the Horus Heresy. Look at the Alpha Legion, who has seen a massive shift in how we perceive them when they began to appear outside of Abnett's Legion, and for some during. The Lion has had some attention from a really great author, that of A D-B, but his appearances in other works, by other authors, have introduced qualities that can be met with mixed reviews. The Lion in Savage Weapons seemed a lot more . . . plausible and pragmatic than he did in . . . I think McNeil's? Dark Angel duology. And this builds up. The Lion inevitably becomes a conglomeration of the personalities shown by the different authors, both good and bad. 

 

As for the Ultramarines . . . Well, I'm not sure I get why it's seen as bad or wrong that they are trapped. What the other Legions didn't have was two other Legions actively keeping them entrapped. That makes a huge difference. I'm certainly not saying the others had a free ride but there's a difference between someone being in your way and someone pushing you back. One can be rushed through easier than the other. And like Idaho has stated, we don't really know the full story. All we know is that some got out and one didn't. We have zero idea on the why's and how's of it yet. For all we know, the Ultramarines are the only reason the others made it free and that they would have all been remained trapped if it hadn't been for the Ultramarines. We don't know, though. We're looking at Schrodinger's Warpstorm. Until an author opens it up, everything that could happen is happening or none of it is. We'll never know until someone does.

[Kol Saresk]

@Artemid: Okay, I see where you are going. Yeah, that is definitely seen in the story since in the first two books, it pretty much becomes established that Nemiel's primary loyalty was to the Lion. Heck, he was going to assassinate the Emperor because he thought it would keep the Lion on Caliban. But then in The Lion, instead of meekly bowing to the Lion's will, he instead goes with his Emperor-given duty and stands against the Primarch he was once willing to kill the Emperor for. So I do see your point, and I do agree with it. I just kind of went off on a tangent because sometimes I see something like "I didn't like this novel. It was obviously poorly written because I didn't like it." I guess you could say I was trying to make sure that wasn't where you were going with it.

 

But on this topic, I think this is something A D-B excels at. Reasons being is because he didn't shift away from Nemiel in Savage Weapons, but instead created a substitute. That might be the wrong word since Corswain is his own character, but I think you see my point. Similar situation with Zso Sahaal. Because A D-B couldn't reach Simon Spurrier, instead of potentially ruining Zso Sahaal, he created Sevatar and instead wrote around Zso Sahaal while still managing to include the original character's presence. Meanwhile, we basically see three different Nemiels. The first one is rash. Second is calm and collected. The third gets to watch as his head sails out of the ballpark. Where once the character was "safeguarded", he instead becomes a plot fixture.

 

Meanwhile, we see four Lions. And they take just as many forms and shapes. So you are right, different authors do lead to different interpretations and these interpretations do cause conflicts. I mean, if you ever wanted proof that fifty people could see the exact same apple fifty different ways, look no farther than Night Lord fans! lol

 

@Cormac: The Duology was written by two different authors, Mike Lee and someone else. So far, A D-B is the only repeat author when it comes to writing the Lion with the stories Savage Weapons and Prince of Crows.

[High MarshalGR]

As much as I dislike the 40k ultramarines I do really like their 30k incarnation. Gulliman being te logistician of the bunch could have started saving the worlds of the imperium to bring more numbers into the fight for the scourig instead of joining the other 3 legion that were at terra. The traitors attack on terra is with legions that have all done an internal purge. And would logically be down 1/3 of their troops due to internal conflict and combat casualties, plus the night lords and alpha legion weren't wholely present for the siege so that the equivalent of what 4.7 legions at full strength? Whereas the 3 loyal legions would probably be at maybe 2.1 to 2.2 legions worth. Due to the fists only being down 10% from phall and the blood angels down about 25% from signus, an if "half the white scars turn" as it is rumored then the traitors don't have enough marines to win a siege (3:1 is doctrinally accepted) this isn't taking into account CUSTODES or sisters of silence. Which would make sense for Rob to go on a recruiting/ savior mission to be a relief force and hit from the rear. Remember old Gullie is the logistics guy so he is just gonna play the numbers to victory.

Also the Lion and Russ were en route when horus attacked and he started the siege when he did for that reason, 2 less powerful legions defending terra would make his job much easier!

 

Guillman was not just a logistician. I hear that everywhere. He was excellent at logistics, keeping technical information, filing etc. But he had another trait. "His greatest talents lay in the art of war". He didn't know how to run logistics alone, he also knew WHAT to do with them, how to manage them as his method of applying them proves. I know he is on the hate side of things usually, but we can't simply throw his talents at the trash can in order to make the Lion look better. If someone knew and had enough information on how to train vs every other legion or create companies especially ready to fight specific traitor legions it would probably be him. That's an asuumption quite close to the way RG worked. The gap can b closed when we have the story backing for any well thought out asumptions.

[Wade Garrett]

Another problem Rob faces is that his Legion took a severe kicking at Calth, Armatura, and Nuceria, not to mention the worlds burned by the other splinter fleets of the XVII and XII.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm not sure how severe those were, relative to their Legion size, considering how many are left post-Heresy.

 

Well, no, there is always the possibility that Guilliman ramped up his already prodigious recruitment pace.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Well, UM were at essentially full-legion strength a few thousand years after the Heresy when they wasted the NL above Tsagualsa, so I'd say Gulletman did a damn good job of replenishing his troops.