Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Conn Eremon]

Huh? There were no Loyalist Legions by then . . .

 

And no offense High MarshalGR, but you just said Guilliman isn't just a logistician and then proceeded to describe how great he is at logistics.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I know, but they showed up in Legion strength. It was essentially the last known occasion where they marched to war as a legion, s'why I called them such.

[Conn Eremon]

Hm. Where does it state that?

[Legatus]

The second or third of A D-B's Night Lord books (escapes me which one it was) has Talos reminisce about the last days of Tsagualsa, when pretty much all of the Ultramarine successor Chapters attacked the remaining Night Lords stationed there. 

[Conn Eremon]

Oh, okay. I thought it was meant that Guilliman had literally reformed the Ultramarines Legion, if temporarily

[Adra'Melek]

All the successor Ultramerine chapters is not the same as full Legion strength. Don't what the exact wording is.

[High MarshalGR]

Huh? There were no Loyalist Legions by then . . .

 

And no offense High MarshalGR, but you just said Guilliman isn't just a logistician and then proceeded to describe how great he is at logistics.

 

What I said is, he is widely known for being a great logistician. What people almost always seem to forget, is HOW he uses this trait. Logistics themselves don't entirely make him up. The way he uses them is what does (quick and effective Imperial Compliance methods, quick recruitment, optimal battle strategies winning the heart of the conquered etc). That's what I said. His biggest talents lay in the art of war. He uses his high logistics skills to aid that. Reread my post while being careful and you'll get it.

[Kol Saresk]

It's the third Night Lords book. Literally every single Chapter that claimed Guilliman as Primarch at the time made an appearance.

[Conn Eremon]

Thanks guys I get it now.

 

But High MarshalGR, you did it again. It could be that one or both of us has a faulty understanding of what logistics, but as far as I'm aware the how's and the way's you just detailed are by and large rolled up in logistics. Sure Guilliman can do more, I am certainly not disputing that, just to be clear. But while you say that his greatest talents lie in the art of war, not just logistics, you only talked about his talents as a logistician.

[Legatus]

I think what High MarshalGR is saying that Guilliman was not just good at getting the material ready and where it needs to be (i.e. logistics), but was also very good at then effectively using that material for it's purpose (i.e. warfare, both in preparation via developing excellent training standards, as well as in execution with very effective tactics and doctrines). 

[Conn Eremon]

That is true, I was just pointing out that it was worded like he's not just a swimmer, he is also very physically fit around the chest and shoulders, has a smooth figure and great lung capacity.

[Kol Saresk]

Which is perfect for being a swimmer! :D

 

Right?

[Wade Garrett]

The fact that the Ultras were back up to snuff a few THOUSAND years after the Heresy doesn't mean they didn't get pasted during it.

 

According to Ruven of the Night Lords, Abaddon commands larger armies in M40 than Horus ever did. Does this mean the Traitor Legions suffered only minor losses in seven years of galactic war followed by the Legion Wars in the Eye?

[Conn Eremon]

Yes. World Eater Steve was injured at Terra. He didn't make it. He was the only casualty.

[Vesper]

Yes. World Eater Steve was injured at Terra. He didn't make it. He was the only casualty.

A sad, heartbreaking, story.

[GhostMalone]

we all mourn his sacrifice. the only world eater stupid enough to die at terra

[Wade Garrett]

Steve dies at Terra?

 

SPOILER TAGS! CAN YOU USE THEM?

[GhostMalone]

im sorry brother I thought it was common knowledge that if it wasn't for steves death at the walls of terra horus would have won.

stupid me ruining the outcome of the heresy

[Conn Eremon]

Sorry, Wade. I was posting on my phone.

 

Besides, it's been in the fluff for nearly a decade already. I assume at this point everyone has read that WD article.

 

And I'm sorry Jaspcat, but are you talking about the Siege of Terra? Steve wasn't there.

 

I suppose I shouldn't derail further.

[Augustus]

I looked at the Lions act of running a sword into Curze's gut as an equivalent to a slap in the face and the challenge to begin the duel. I always figured if he could land a blow like that he could have just decapitated him.

[Captain Idaho]

A wide swing is harder to achieve than a thrust. And being run through is generally pretty lethal.

[Greyall]

Aye, but Primarchs do have a tendency to take such blows pretty well. As has been pointed out throughout the thread, the Lion's knightly aspect is mainly about aesthetics. The man is a pragmatist who's skilled enough to usually show his face before taking you down. However, once he finds the omni-teleporter, he has no qualms about forgetting the second 'knock' of the joke and performing claymore-accupuncture on Curze while the NLs are still trying to figure out where the Angels came from.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, in a fight where the Lion did "death by a thousand cuts" the Lion was able to inflict damage to several unknown organs, slit Curze's throat and cause eleven injuries that are immediately fatal to Astartes as well as destroy several arteries IIRC. Theoretically, a thrust into the right organ has the potential of actually being fatal to even a Primarch. Theoretically.

[Greyall]

Let me reinforce that: Theoretically. Not even the brain is an assured kill, Fulgrim's head wound ended up healing - although it's left more or less undetermined if Fabius' care was essential or not.

 

Other than that, we have no account whatsoever of a Primarch dying from organ trauma. But then again, we know next to nothing on a Primarch's anatomy. Which is made worse by the fact that they were charged with Warp energies during their conception - hence why Ferrus' deathsplosion threw a whole lot of Astartes to the ground. I like that mistery, it adds to the legend, much like the missing Legions, though on the latter, my marketing-sense tingles that they'll eventually be explained.

 

Curze's wounds were the closest we saw to a Primarch dying from mass injuries. Which says a lot about the Lion's abilities with a sword. Even Lorgar wasn't in such a dire state after getting double-shot by a Titan's Plasma Cannon, from what I recall he would've simply been left a half-melted wreck, and taken a looooong time to recover.

 

I like to believe most Primarchs forget about the Lion when ranking their brothers on fighting prowess. Sure, Angron first, Sanguinius is pretty much undisputed, as well, but every account we've had until now shows the Lion as being a goddamned whirlwind with a two-handed sword which probably weights a ton (I don't mean it literally, but then again...). I'm assuming his flawless victory of Curze in their second run had something to do with him learning to keep his distance from a brawler with scythes for fingers. Which is proof of how fast the guy's mind is. Even ice-cold Guilliman fought a bit berserkerly against Lorgar and Angron.

[Onisuzume]

Well, in a fight where the Lion did "death by a thousand cuts" the Lion was able to inflict damage to several unknown organs, slit Curze's throat and cause eleven injuries that are immediately fatal to Astartes as well as destroy several arteries IIRC. Theoretically, a thrust into the right organ has the potential of actually being fatal to even a Primarch. Theoretically.

Proof of concept: Horus died to a stab to the shoulder.

Let me reinforce that: Theoretically. Not even the brain is an assured kill, Fulgrim's head wound ended up healing - although it's left more or less undetermined if Fabius' care was essential or not.

Orks can survive being decapitated too, so... Fulgrim is an ork?