Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Kol Saresk]

Yep. And in a way, it says something about Curze as well, considering the fact that he slashed the Lion's throat. When someone is that good with a sword, it takes either effort or surprise/luck to do that kind of blow to them.

 

 

Seriously, it's spoiler.

No, seriously, the next few spoilers are dealing with Vulkan Lives.

But then you get Vulkan who gets killed with a fork.

 

 

 

[Greyall]

For real? Would you elaborate a little more on that Super-Spoiler?

 

@Onisuzume: Horus died from a freaking warp-envenomed blade whose slightest cuts make Astartes beg for death. A weapon thatworks by speaking the name of your target, upon which it will start producing just the exact poisons and toxins necessary to make that hangover you tell no-one a trip through a lavender field.

 

I wasn't aware that Orkz could survive decapitation, all 40K media show them dying in a thousand different ways. Do you mean they get to move for a few seconds, like chicken?

[Emperor's Furor]

On Vulkan

 

 

He didn't die by a fork that was during one of the psychic interrogations during the meal with the humans strapped to chairs, blind, deaf and unknowing that they sat in front of a feast

 

[Kol Saresk]

 

Really, it is a spoiler. From Vulkan Lives.

At one point in Vulkan Lives, Curze tries to torment Vulkan by having him sit at a table filled with rotten food. Seated around the table are several humans who have had their hands replaced with forks and knives. The utensils are too long for them to eat with, but they try anyway. Vulkan realizes this and tells them to feed each other. He starts yelling because they aren't listening. At that point, Curze "appears"(it is unknown if he arrived or if he just made himself known) and tells Vulkan that they were blinded and deafened. Vulkan tells him to kill him. Curze says that he already has, multiple times and that Vulkan just won't stay dead. Curze gets angry, rips the fork off of one of the humans and tears open Vulkan's chest with it. Vulkan "dies".

 

 

 

 

The psychic interrogation(s) were only with the fight with Corax though. Everything else was real. That's why the fight was the only time Vulkan didn't see the Emperor or Ferrus.

 

[Greyall]

Thanks, guys.

 

Well, we're starting to see the first letters of "grimdark", aren't we...?

[Emperor's Furor]

 

Really, it is a spoiler. From Vulkan Lives.

At one point in Vulkan Lives, Curze tries to torment Vulkan by having him sit at a table filled with rotten food. Seated around the table are several humans who have had their hands replaced with forks and knives. The utensils are too long for them to eat with, but they try anyway. Vulkan realizes this and tells them to feed each other. He starts yelling because they aren't listening. At that point, Curze "appears"(it is unknown if he arrived or if he just made himself known) and tells Vulkan that they were blinded and deafened. Vulkan tells him to kill him. Curze says that he already has, multiple times and that Vulkan just won't stay dead. Curze gets angry, rips the fork off of one of the humans and tears open Vulkan's chest with it. Vulkan "dies".

 

 

 

 

The psychic interrogation(s) were only with the fight with Corax though. Everything else was real. That's why the fight was the only time Vulkan didn't see the Emperor or Ferrus.

 

 

But that was a psychic vision though, made by the Davinite Priests

 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Really, it is a spoiler. From Vulkan Lives.

At one point in Vulkan Lives, Curze tries to torment Vulkan by having him sit at a table filled with rotten food. Seated around the table are several humans who have had their hands replaced with forks and knives. The utensils are too long for them to eat with, but they try anyway. Vulkan realizes this and tells them to feed each other. He starts yelling because they aren't listening. At that point, Curze "appears"(it is unknown if he arrived or if he just made himself known) and tells Vulkan that they were blinded and deafened. Vulkan tells him to kill him. Curze says that he already has, multiple times and that Vulkan just won't stay dead. Curze gets angry, rips the fork off of one of the humans and tears open Vulkan's chest with it. Vulkan "dies".

 

 

 

 

The psychic interrogation(s) were only with the fight with Corax though. Everything else was real. That's why the fight was the only time Vulkan didn't see the Emperor or Ferrus.

 

But that was a psychic vision though, made by the Davinite Priests

 

No, the fight with Corax was the vision. Since Vulkan isn't killed since the psykers die, there woul be no reason for him to believe his immortal after that. But he does and so does Curze. That means that Curze has actually tried to kill him before and since Vulkan believes it, it means he has experienced a death outside of the psychic visions. Those deaths were the airlock, the incinerator and the cutlery.

 

[Emperor's Furor]

 

 

 

 

Really, it is a spoiler. From Vulkan Lives.

At one point in Vulkan Lives, Curze tries to torment Vulkan by having him sit at a table filled with rotten food. Seated around the table are several humans who have had their hands replaced with forks and knives. The utensils are too long for them to eat with, but they try anyway. Vulkan realizes this and tells them to feed each other. He starts yelling because they aren't listening. At that point, Curze "appears"(it is unknown if he arrived or if he just made himself known) and tells Vulkan that they were blinded and deafened. Vulkan tells him to kill him. Curze says that he already has, multiple times and that Vulkan just won't stay dead. Curze gets angry, rips the fork off of one of the humans and tears open Vulkan's chest with it. Vulkan "dies".

 

 

 

 

The psychic interrogation(s) were only with the fight with Corax though. Everything else was real. That's why the fight was the only time Vulkan didn't see the Emperor or Ferrus.

 

But that was a psychic vision though, made by the Davinite Priests

No, the fight with Corax was the vision. Since Vulkan isn't killed since the psykers die, there woul be no reason for him to believe his immortal after that. But he does and so does Curze. That means that Curze has actually tried to kill him before and since Vulkan believes it, it means he has experienced a death outside of the psychic visions. Those deaths were the airlock, the incinerator and the cutlery.

 

 

I don't think so, every time the "emperor" shows up is when he's being psychically tortured, this is during him being encased in the machine, attached to the blocks that squash the people and during the dinner scene. The airlock and incinerator truly happened, but the others were just visions implanted by the priests.

 

[Kol Saresk]

The Emperor also showed up when he was in the Labyrinth and cleared his madness so he could concentrate.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

The Emperor also showed up when he was in the Labyrinth and cleared his madness so he could concentrate.

 

 

Yeah, that may be why he was able to speak to him as opposed to being just one of the several slaves and captives used in the tortures. I mean he sees nemetor when he's in that machine but we know by the end of the book that nemetor was already long dead, they were all psychic visions, they never actually occured, just as the fight with Corax never actually occurred

 

[Onisuzume]

@Onisuzume: Horus died from a freaking warp-envenomed blade whose slightest cuts make Astartes beg for death. A weapon thatworks by speaking the name of your target, upon which it will start producing just the exact poisons and toxins necessary to make that hangover you tell no-one a trip through a lavender field.

I know, I read the books.

Well, the busy with the 6th book atm. Bought the 2012 holyday bundle a few weeks ago so I had something to read while sitting in the train touring Alba.

 

I wasn't aware that Orkz could survive decapitation, all 40K media show them dying in a thousand different ways. Do you mean they get to move for a few seconds, like chicken?

As in: they can recover said head and stitch it back onto a body and expect the ork to live to tell the tale, and, more importantly, fight another battle.

Old fluff though, I think.

 

Also:

 

Because the last half-dozen or so posts had spoiler tags as well.

 

[Kol Saresk]

Also:

Because the last half-dozen or so posts had spoiler tags as well.

lol, they were kind of needed though.

Hey, WoT, give me a few, but if you don't mind discussing this further, we can move it to another topic so this one doesn't close down. If you don't mind, I just need to finish some things up and then I can make it.

[Emperor's Furor]

Np, probably the Vulkan Lives thread is a better option.

[Conn Eremon]

Yeesh, that was a lot of spoilers that had nothing to do with the actual thread and did not properly warn of what the spoilers were for.

 

Good thing I don't actually mind spoilers, but wow.

[Kol Saresk]

:P

 

Serious note, I'll EDIT it so there's a heads up.

 

And it is fixed.

[High MarshalGR]

Let me reinforce that: Theoretically. Not even the brain is an assured kill, Fulgrim's head wound ended up healing - although it's left more or less undetermined if Fabius' care was essential or not.

 

Other than that, we have no account whatsoever of a Primarch dying from organ trauma. But then again, we know next to nothing on a Primarch's anatomy. Which is made worse by the fact that they were charged with Warp energies during their conception - hence why Ferrus' deathsplosion threw a whole lot of Astartes to the ground. I like that mistery, it adds to the legend, much like the missing Legions, though on the latter, my marketing-sense tingles that they'll eventually be explained.

 

Curze's wounds were the closest we saw to a Primarch dying from mass injuries. Which says a lot about the Lion's abilities with a sword. Even Lorgar wasn't in such a dire state after getting double-shot by a Titan's Plasma Cannon, from what I recall he would've simply been left a half-melted wreck, and taken a looooong time to recover.

 

I like to believe most Primarchs forget about the Lion when ranking their brothers on fighting prowess. Sure, Angron first, Sanguinius is pretty much undisputed, as well, but every account we've had until now shows the Lion as being a goddamned whirlwind with a two-handed sword which probably weights a ton (I don't mean it literally, but then again...). I'm assuming his flawless victory of Curze in their second run had something to do with him learning to keep his distance from a brawler with scythes for fingers. Which is proof of how fast the guy's mind is. Even ice-cold Guilliman fought a bit berserkerly against Lorgar and Angron.

 

OK, so this goes to keep the topic alive since it's really interesting and I find it a shame.

Fighting prowess of the Lion is really not to triffle with for sure. His knightly aspect may expand from his aesthetics to his fighting potential. His cold, pragmatic mind allows him to carefully estimate and foresee the opponent's movement and then act. Curze pwned Dorn once and I think his fighting style was bloody and brutal, not a really low Primarch on the fighting side from what we read. And yet Lion almost tore him to pieces, which further demonstrates his cold, analytical line of thought expanded on the field of battle. But you know who has the talent to be underestimated in any way: Perturabo of course!

[Kol Saresk]

Well, yes and no on the Lion tearing Curze to pieces. In their first fight, the Lion needed Corswain's help. We don't know the entirety of the second fight, just the end result. But, since the Lion had to resort to death by a thousand cuts, we can actually see three things from the fight.

 

1.) The Lion is able to study fights while he is having them and then adapt to that style in later fights. Basically, you might beat him once, but it is doubtfull you'll beat him twice unless you change and adapt as well.

 

2.) Curze is able to put up enough of a defense that the Lion had to wear him down in order to be in a position to be able to deal a finishing blow. So the Lion does have a great deal of control while on the other hand, Curze isn't as bad as a fighter as he was shown to be in Vulkan Lives. Of course,

since part of the plot was Curze being suicidal, we could actually say that Curze wasn't giving it all.

 

 

3.) As stated above, the Lion is able to adapt. IIRC, in Savage Weapons Curze and Lion were going blow for blow. But in the second fight, Curze still attacks shadowfast. In a way, you could say that he is primal in his attack. And yet, he was still able to put up enough of a defense that the Lion chose to attempt to beat him by slowing down and then just doing small cuts here and there while wearing down the Night Haunter.

 

To be honest, it goes to show that all Primarchs are different, but they are equally scary in their own ways.

[High MarshalGR]

Well, yes and no on the Lion tearing Curze to pieces. In their first fight, the Lion needed Corswain's help. We don't know the entirety of the second fight, just the end result. But, since the Lion had to resort to death by a thousand cuts, we can actually see three things from the fight.

 

1.) The Lion is able to study fights while he is having them and then adapt to that style in later fights. Basically, you might beat him once, but it is doubtfull you'll beat him twice unless you change and adapt as well.

 

2.) Curze is able to put up enough of a defense that the Lion had to wear him down in order to be in a position to be able to deal a finishing blow. So the Lion does have a great deal of control while on the other hand, Curze isn't as bad as a fighter as he was shown to be in Vulkan Lives. Of course,

since part of the plot was Curze being suicidal, we could actually say that Curze wasn't giving it all.

 

 

3.) As stated above, the Lion is able to adapt. IIRC, in Savage Weapons Curze and Lion were going blow for blow. But in the second fight, Curze still attacks shadowfast. In a way, you could say that he is primal in his attack. And yet, he was still able to put up enough of a defense that the Lion chose to attempt to beat him by slowing down and then just doing small cuts here and there while wearing down the Night Haunter.

 

To be honest, it goes to show that all Primarchs are different, but they are equally scary in their own ways.

 

Spot on, but some have a greater individual fighting charisma then others (f.e. Russ, Angron, Sanguinius) while others balance that out with different traits on the art of war. The Lion is of course able to adapt. He's smart. He can adapt with his mind. I also think he can adapt spot on, but not in the same extend he can after the fight is over. Also, I used the phrase cut to pieces as a metaphor since Curze survived. His heart is what lacks a bit, thus giving him the whole almost sociopath thing. The extremely intelligent as well Perturabo realized that and took advantage of his weakness. 

[Kol Saresk]

True enough. I wasn't saying you were wrong about him being cut to pieces. Heck, out of the organs and blood vessels they could identify, Curze had suffered eleven fatal wounds. For all we know, when you include the unknown organs and blood vessels, Curze may have actually suffered many more fatal wounds.

 

But yes, you are right.

[lilMAC25]

I thought that in the end, all of the primarchs would come back for the end times and fight the last battle.

 

 

Anyways, I like it how it is with the primarchs.

 

 

RAGNAROK

[Adra'Melek]

True enough. I wasn't saying you were wrong about him being cut to pieces. Heck, out of the organs and blood vessels they could identify, Curze had suffered eleven fatal wounds. For all we know, when you include the unknown organs and blood vessels, Curze may have actually suffered many more fatal wounds.

But yes, you are right.

This may be a stupid question but how are they fatal wounds if they didn't kill him?

[Conn Eremon]

The actual book refers to them as otherwise fatal wounds. Each one had the potential of outright ending a Marine, though apparently not a Primarch.

[Kol Saresk]

Which in a way says something about Curze since he suffered at least eleven such wounds.

[Adra'Melek]

Gotcha

[High MarshalGR]

Now, one of the most interesting view of the events I've heard and I can't simply discard it due to the fact that the claims match the Lion's character:

 

 

Ten standard millennia later, a captured Fallen Angel named Merir Astelan would tell a different version of these events. According to Astelan, Lion El'Jonson was late in arriving to the defence of Terra not due to being too far away, but because he was waiting to see whether it was Horus or the Emperor who won the great conflict between them. Astelan, believing that those who were with Jonson would not forgive them for turning on their brothers, ordered the defensive batteries of Caliban to fire upon the returning Dark Angels' fleet. The difference between the Dark Angels' view of the fall of Caliban and that of the Fallen Angel Astelan is considered to be due to Astelan's literally warped perception of these events, but some aspects of this story may ring with truth after all, and Lion El'Jonson might have betrayed the Emperor in his heart, if not in his mind, when he was most needed.

 

 

I would like to hear the reasons we can discard these words simply as "those are a heretic's word's", when in fact it's like hearing the way the Lion functions (with his mind, not his heart) from a "Fallen Angel". Everything matches the Lion's "brilliance". Go with the winner. THat's so pragmatic, it is something he might have done.