Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah it's not true from every source I've read.

[Augustus]

Kol is correct. A librarian does use his powers and his brothers shun him in a Garro story. The Big Blue Boss says that if they survive they should petition for their reinstatement in No Know Fear. As it appears he props up Sang as the new Emperor it could happen then.

[Augustus]

I get the impression that Chaos wants the Emperor on the Golden Throne (which sucks so bad) so I can see the Lion lending or leading Sang and company Tchulacha(sp)

[Captain Idaho]

Kol is correct. A librarian does use his powers and his brothers shun him in a Garro story. The Big Blue Boss says that if they survive they should petition for their reinstatement in No Know Fear. As it appears he props up Sang as the new Emperor it could happen then.

Guilliman is a master statesman too so I imagine this legal technicality would be right up his alley. After all, the Emperor is incognito and contact with the Imperium is all but impossible for those on the wrong side of the Ruinstorm.

 

Interesting twist.

[Greyall]

I'm thinking after Unremembered Empire the lot of loyalists will seem at least as "duplicitous" as the Lion seems now. And we'll be calling it "pragmatism" from then on because, like Sanguinius, most have trouble dealing with what needs to be done in a war (hint: most of it is bloddy business once you decide to win).

[Captain Idaho]

I agree it'll be clearer to see what direction each loyalist Legion/Primarch will be heading, though I doubt BL will allow us to know exactly what machinations each Primarch is enagaged upon until the very end. And even then, they'll be less definitive answers than we'd like (the mystery of 40K etc.) so these debates will rage on!

[Greyall]

True. But man, am I aching to see what keeps Guilliman from being on Earth for the siege. Not out of any anti-Ultra feel, I like the guys, and it's precisely because of that I have this stinging curiosity. You see, there's this hunch/secret desire I have that Guilliman will be misunderstood on his attempts to create an Imperium Secundus and much finger-pointing (if not fist-aiming) will ensue. Sanguinius might simply be disgusted, especially with himself for understanding Guilliman's point of view. Vulkan's good nature means he won't ever let go of his father, so his is another misterious absence. The Khan would believably do the fist-aiming, I'm sure the idea of replacing the Emperor will infuriate him, something only made worse since we know he took his time to pick a side.

 

And then there's Maude - I mean, the Lion. His previous speech about Guilliman's intentions shows a troubling misunderstanding of his brother's nature and, likely, a good deal of resentment from Bluey's successes and victories - also, his ability to deal with human beings in a normal way. Expect finger-pointing of the highest order once Guilliman states his plan.

 

So the end of the book should (as in, 'I have this hunch') see Guilliman being shunned by his brothers, who patently suspect him of misplaced loyalty. Either that or he'll be trying to rebuild his empire so that a second Imperium does have a starting poing/bastion if Terra goes to hell. Neither outcome is exactly satisfying but, like you said, Idaho, 40K mistery and doubt.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I've seen several references to leaving half the Legion on Caliban...where is this information? I was under the impression he only sent a couple of thousand back...not the better part of 60,000

[Augustus]

There is nothing I have found that says half the legion turned and until I see it it boils my blood that people continue to say it.

 

--

 

I reread your post. He ordered 500 to return. At the start of Fallen Angels there is a little over 4000 Marines ready for deployment that Luther withholds. 6+  years of Heresy + amount of years of the Scouring at a rate of near 2000 marines a year...it is possible that with a depleted First Legion from the War and a bolstered Caliban force it is possible that they could have roughly equal numbers.

 

-----

[Greyall]

Why would it boil your blood? The whole point for the Dark Angels fluff is for them to seem like half traitors and not wanting others to find out, resorting to murdering Inquisitors and therefore making their redemption cringeworthy. That's what Curze warned the Lion about - his dealing with the Night Lords would cost him is reputation in the future, he would never enjoy the same aura of unwavering loyalty as Sanguinius, Dorn or Guilliman.

 

My guess is people say 'Half the Legion' as in 'Half remained loyalist, half turned to Chaos'. As in, two sides of something, I don't see many posters going for the exact numbers.

[Haranin]

Old fluff had a legion at 10000, so 4-5000 turning to chaos was half.

 

New fluff have legions being much larger, and da was one of the largest; and according FW one of the best equipped.

 

They didn't revise the caliban numbers, so now it appears the trailer were much smaller.

[Kol Saresk]

I agree it'll be clearer to see what direction each loyalist Legion/Primarch will be heading, though I doubt BL will allow us to know exactly what machinations each Primarch is enagaged upon until the very end. And even then, they'll be less definitive answers than we'd like (the mystery of 40K etc.) so these debates will rage on!

The way I see it, considering how a fair number of people used to post how they didn't like the HH series because it "made everything cut and dried", this kind of development seems right up their alley.

[Artemid]

Old fluff had a legion at 10000, so 4-5000 turning to chaos was half.

New fluff have legions being much larger, and da was one of the largest; and according FW one of the best equipped.

They didn't revise the caliban numbers, so now it appears the trailer were much smaller.

because with new sizes it would be simply ludicrous to have that many Marines at home twiddling their thumbs.

[Greyall]

Agreed. It's awkward enough with the previous numbers...

[Conn Eremon]

It's equally ludicrous either way. It's half of a Legion, in the middle of the Great Crusade.

[Greyall]

Have we got even the slightest hint as to why the Lion did that, anyway? It has been a long time. So far the only thing we've got is that many of the Lion's decisions, when viewed from afar, make one seriously uncomfortable...

[Artemid]

When we're suddenly dealing with new Legion sizes, and the I being on the larger end, I actually think the old numbers work put alright. It helps keep a significant garrison and training staff for the legion's main recruiting center, which isn't the most tranquil of worlds.

[High MarshalGR]

True. But man, am I aching to see what keeps Guilliman from being on Earth for the siege. Not out of any anti-Ultra feel, I like the guys, and it's precisely because of that I have this stinging curiosity. You see, there's this hunch/secret desire I have that Guilliman will be misunderstood on his attempts to create an Imperium Secundus and much finger-pointing (if not fist-aiming) will ensue. Sanguinius might simply be disgusted, especially with himself for understanding Guilliman's point of view. Vulkan's good nature means he won't ever let go of his father, so his is another misterious absence. The Khan would believably do the fist-aiming, I'm sure the idea of replacing the Emperor will infuriate him, something only made worse since we know he took his time to pick a side.

 

And then there's Maude - I mean, the Lion. His previous speech about Guilliman's intentions shows a troubling misunderstanding of his brother's nature and, likely, a good deal of resentment from Bluey's successes and victories - also, his ability to deal with human beings in a normal way. Expect finger-pointing of the highest order once Guilliman states his plan.

 

So the end of the book should (as in, 'I have this hunch') see Guilliman being shunned by his brothers, who patently suspect him of misplaced loyalty. Either that or he'll be trying to rebuild his empire so that a second Imperium does have a starting poing/bastion if Terra goes to hell. Neither outcome is exactly satisfying but, like you said, Idaho, 40K mistery and doubt.

 

It's not only realising why Guillman did what he did since one can find so many reasons for this action (back-up plan, ultra-efiiciency, unity since he didn't declare the Emperor, ace in the hole etc) but how terrifying one will find the power Guillman created. From a far away perspective, Guillman was too dangerous. His brothers realized that, but only a few realized what is behind the mask. He was always finger pointed anyway, and not even a handfull of Primarchs liked or trusted him. So I'm kinda anxious to hear that out too.

 

As far as DA's go, I'm with you 100%. The way they reacted towards BT when they captured a Fallen Angel (great scenarios can be derived from this), the way they treat the Inquisition and behave exactly as if they are hiding something (which they do), and the greatest part: The fear of the reason the Fallen Angels turned traitor, which isn't still 100% clear. Why I say that? Because we still have speculations about the reason behind the mask.

[Kol Saresk]

I blame Luther.

[Captain Idaho]

 

True. But man, am I aching to see what keeps Guilliman from being on Earth for the siege. Not out of any anti-Ultra feel, I like the guys, and it's precisely because of that I have this stinging curiosity. You see, there's this hunch/secret desire I have that Guilliman will be misunderstood on his attempts to create an Imperium Secundus and much finger-pointing (if not fist-aiming) will ensue. Sanguinius might simply be disgusted, especially with himself for understanding Guilliman's point of view. Vulkan's good nature means he won't ever let go of his father, so his is another misterious absence. The Khan would believably do the fist-aiming, I'm sure the idea of replacing the Emperor will infuriate him, something only made worse since we know he took his time to pick a side.

 

And then there's Maude - I mean, the Lion. His previous speech about Guilliman's intentions shows a troubling misunderstanding of his brother's nature and, likely, a good deal of resentment from Bluey's successes and victories - also, his ability to deal with human beings in a normal way. Expect finger-pointing of the highest order once Guilliman states his plan.

 

So the end of the book should (as in, 'I have this hunch') see Guilliman being shunned by his brothers, who patently suspect him of misplaced loyalty. Either that or he'll be trying to rebuild his empire so that a second Imperium does have a starting poing/bastion if Terra goes to hell. Neither outcome is exactly satisfying but, like you said, Idaho, 40K mistery and doubt.

 

It's not only realising why Guillman did what he did since one can find so many reasons for this action (back-up plan, ultra-efiiciency, unity since he didn't declare the Emperor, ace in the hole etc) but how terrifying one will find the power Guillman created. From a far away perspective, Guillman was too dangerous. His brothers realized that, but only a few realized what is behind the mask. He was always finger pointed anyway, and not even a handfull of Primarchs liked or trusted him. So I'm kinda anxious to hear that out too.

 

The most loyal and far sighted Primarchs were counted among his closest brothers; Ferrus Manus, Dorn, Sanguinius and Horus. Sure Horus turned traitor, but only because the Chaos gods made it their business to corrupt him (complete with evil sword and cackling manically. As for the rest of the Primarchs, even Lorgar refused to believe Guilliman would ever turn away from the Emperor.

 

So we have a situation where the information shows us Guilliman is far away considered a danger to the Emperor or the Imperium.

 

I believe you are mis-remembering the Know No Fear reference where Guilliman was mentioned only being close to a few of his brothers as many of them felt Guilliman was so astute that he would always have something to gain.

 

Seeing as the most loyal and steadfast brothers knew better (those mentioned above), it's logical to assume the Primarchs are generally a mistrusting lot. Which we know already.

 

What would be interesting to see for me that is linked to your opinion, is will the brotherhood of Primarchs (already pretty fratured and damaged) survive Unremembered Empire?

[Onisuzume]

I agree it'll be clearer to see what direction each loyalist Legion/Primarch will be heading, though I doubt BL will allow us to know exactly what machinations each Primarch is enagaged upon until the very end. And even then, they'll be less definitive answers than we'd like (the mystery of 40K etc.) so these debates will rage on!

Or heck, given the number of writers we've had for the First Legion, it'd be doubtful they could all agree on a given direction.

As far as DA's go, I'm with you 100%. The way they reacted towards BT when they captured a Fallen Angel (great scenarios can be derived from this), the way they treat the Inquisition and behave exactly as if they are hiding something (which they do), and the greatest part: The fear of the reason the Fallen Angels turned traitor, which isn't still 100% clear. Why I say that? Because we still have speculations about the reason behind the mask.

Not to mention that the ramblings of one of the Fallen managed to make an Interrogator-Chaplain doubt himself...

Other than that, I've only read upto halfway through Descent of Angels so far, but it appears that:

 

One: Luther had always some resentment about being in the Lion's shadow. And two: that there's been some issues with the changes that the Lion and the Order brought to Caliban.

 

I've seen a mention to some Inner Circle, and that makes me wonder a bit... Considering that the "Inner Circle" I've seen in the book went so far as to contemplace killing the Emperor in an attempt to reverse some of the changes wrought to their planet. What could the chances be that after so many years/decades/whatever they might still be planning to undo those changes? That, combined with the uncertainty of the Lion's allegiace to the Caliban-stranded Dark Angels could result in some... mistakes being made.

 

[High MarshalGR]

 

The most loyal and far sighted Primarchs were counted among his closest brothers; Ferrus Manus, Dorn, Sanguinius and Horus. Sure Horus turned traitor, but only because the Chaos gods made it their business to corrupt him (complete with evil sword and cackling manically. As for the rest of the Primarchs, even Lorgar refused to believe Guilliman would ever turn away from the Emperor.

 

So we have a situation where the information shows us Guilliman is far away considered a danger to the Emperor or the Imperium.

 

I believe you are mis-remembering the Know No Fear reference where Guilliman was mentioned only being close to a few of his brothers as many of them felt Guilliman was so astute that he would always have something to gain.

 

Seeing as the most loyal and steadfast brothers knew better (those mentioned above), it's logical to assume the Primarchs are generally a mistrusting lot. Which we know already.

 

What would be interesting to see for me that is linked to your opinion, is will the brotherhood of Primarchs (already pretty fratured and damaged) survive Unremembered Empire?

 

 

We are telling almost the same thing in different words. That's what I said, very few (almost a handful) of his brother Primarchs trust him. He is a big shot indeed, he needs to have his own negative aspects after all so we do agree. But being a big shot is indeed one of the biggest reasons not to be trusted. I find one big problem within the methods of Guilliman personally: They are too big to be taken for what they are by any other than him. Everyone will easily call him an egomaniac but very few will be able to see why it seems so and why he did what he did. Which goes back to what you and me said, that he is considered dangerous among his own brothers (he always was considered to have something to gain and many chose to see only this side of him). 

 

 

He is handsome, in a plain way. He is handsome the way a regent on an old coin is handsome, like a good sword is handsome. He is not handsome like a ritual weapon, the wayFulgrim is. He is not angelic, like Sanguinius...

There is a dutiful line to his jaw, like his good brother Dorn. They share a nobility. There is the great strength of Ferrusand the vitality of Mortarion. There is, sometimes, the rogue glint of the Khan in his eyes, or the solemnity of the Lion. In the architecture of his nose and brow there is, many claim, the energy and triumph of Horus Lupercal. There is none of the bitterness that shadows Corax, or the persecuted despair that haunts poor Konrad. There is never any of the deliberate mystery that obscures Alpharius or Magnus and he is more open than that buried soul Vulkan... He never displays the pitch of fury found in Angron, nor do his eyes ever ignite with the psychotic gleam of Russ...

He is a high achiever. He knows this about himself. Sometimes it feels like a fault that he has to excuse to his brothers, but then he feels guilty for making excuses... He writes a great deal. He codifies everything. Information is power. Technical theory is victory... He uses a stylus by choice, recording in his own handwriting.

He has been writing notes on T'Vanti war practices for seventeen minutes, but he has still noted and marked fifteen hundred data bulletins and updates that have tracked across the secondary screens to his left. He sees and reconciles everything. Information is victory.

 

I think this also agrees with our speculations Idaho, and gives us a better glimpse.

[Greyall]

Aye, I share your doubt, Idaho, and my hunch was based on the viewpoint of other Primarchs. Guilly will not be dealing with his most stable brothers. And even those that should be so have been through hell, lately. Guilliman included

[Captain Idaho]

High MarshalGR; ah right, got all confused with the tone I think.. You sparked something in my brain and I went all geek on it too!

 

Thought we had the same conclusion actually so I did think we were in agreement anyway!

[Legatus]

 

The most loyal and far sighted Primarchs were counted among his closest brothers; Ferrus Manus, Dorn, Sanguinius and Horus. Sure Horus turned traitor, but only because the Chaos gods made it their business to corrupt him

If you meant to refer to the dauntless few, those included Russ, not Horus. If you included Horus because of a reference from 'Horus Rising', then sorry for interrupting.