Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Billuriye]

Are there any sources about Lion stabbing Russ? I am wary of these obscure fluff bits like Russ beating Horus in sparring or Valdor stalemating Horus etc which usually turn out to be false.

[Lord_Caerolion]

From what I remember, it's from "the Wolf and the Lion", or one of those other old articles they wrote. I'm fairly sure it's in the current DA codex.

[shintuhadoken]

Are there any sources about Lion stabbing Russ? I am wary of these obscure fluff bits like Russ beating Horus in sparring or Valdor stalemating Horus etc which usually turn out to be false.

 

Its a very old piece of fluff that was either in the Angels Of Death codex or a WD around the 2nd edition cant remember which.

 

Once the Emperor killed Horus the warp storms surrounding Terra broke and the Space Wolf and Dark Angel Forces arrived to reinforce terra.

 

By the time the got to the palace they were decieding what to do with the body, the lion went off to sit on his own for a bit.

 

Leman Russ apporached the Lion about there ongoing fued (this was meant to be the final part of the Lion and the Wolf story where Russ strikes the Lion) and in an effort to seek correct any bad feelings between the two Russ removed his armour and told the lion to take his shot. So he did, stabbing him but missing his heart at the last possible second.

 

Quite frankly the story is a very old piece of fluff and is really out of place when looking at the HH books now.

 

Cheeers,

 

Shin

[ForTheLion]

thanks for calrifying guys :)

 

As for the horus/russ situation, there were 2 incidents, the first one is in both codices, when russ and lion were in a siege in the great crusade and russ wanted to slay the enemy leader that had called him emperors pet dog...the lion devised a faster plan at the expense of SW marine lives to kill him faster and thus end the siege days head on...russ saw this as a stain to his honor and attacked the lion out of nowhere, where they fought for 3 days...then he suddenly stoped and started laughing....the lion saw this as mockery rather then realisation and knocked russ out....

 

The second reference is from rogue trader era, which will most likely get changed....it stated that when the lion and russ reached terra and saw what had become of the emperor, the lion went into a giefing rage and attacked russ, bested him in combat and stabbed him in his primary heart, as he blamed russ for them beeing late, due to thge fact that on their way back, russ wanted to free the rebelious worlds and the lion jst wanted to get straight to terra, but abided by russ' wishes. Anyhow he stopped at the last moment from killing russ and realised what he had done and went emo, and returned to caliban, where he was betrayed by luther...

[Aegnor]

The stabbing reference must pre-date the Angels of Death codex from 2nd Ed. I've just checked my copy, and it only had the brawl between Russ and el'Jonson.

 

The version as it appeared in that (quite long) inset was that Russ and el'Jonson had never been friendly - Jonson thought Russ a crude, boastful bore, and Russ found Jonson's taciturn, unfriendly demeanor personally offensive. As told in this version (and conscious other sources make similar claims re other Legions), only Horus and Jonson had won more victories than Russ, and this exasperated Russ. Both legions, before the Heresy, were present on a planet were the local ruler renounced his oaths to the Emperor. He also personally insulted Russ, calling his the emperor's puppy and promising the "feed his heart to his grox". Russ was enraged and demanded he be permitted to lead the strike against the ruler. Jonson had already been planning his assault for days and scouted the castle, and refused this request, launching his own attack. Russ and the SWs were still fighting at the palace gates when the saw Jonson reach the ruler and kill him.

 

Russ stormed in and belted Jonson, they fought barefist for a full day. Russ was slightly stronger, Jonson was slightly quicker, so neither could gain an advantage. Eventually, Russ saw the funny side of the situation and started laughing, considering te fight a draw and honour satisfied on both sides. Jonson still felt wronged, so sucker-punched Russ while the latter was laughing, knocking him out. He then dragged Russ back to the SW camp in front of a jeering crowd of DAs. By the time Russ came to, the DAs had left the planet.

 

It says this was a start of a rivalry that would last for centuries and is still observed today in duels when the legions meet, but also notes at times it has led to open hostility between the two chapters.

[Rik Lightstar]

The Lion seems to have inherited from the Big E 2 things:

 

1) A boat load of arrogance,

2) A sense of entitlement,

I love how people make comments like this but never with anything to back them up...

 

ALWAYS glad to please, I think other people have covered the arrogance point to death over the last few months on here, and with regard to the sense of entitlement, in one of the two DA novels he's stated as thinking HE should have been Warmaster, where there is little reasoning given behind it, and he is generally described as aloof and cold , and has no well defined relationships with his brothers, yet he still thinks he should have been Warmaster/

 

Rik

[chaplain belisarius]

interesting thread! ive always thought the lion was a very easily misunderstood primarch myself (i kinda like him-he reminds me of myself in a few ways)

 

I need to get these horus heresy books on the lion and read up on them....

 

Its always confused me slightly how its gone from-

 

-horus, then the lion, then russ are the best generals

 

to

 

-but horus, guilliman and dorn are also the best generals

 

(i know that one group are most victories and the other group is best generals, but im getting old and easily confused...shrugs..)

[Legatus]

Its always confused me slightly how its gone from-

 

-horus, then the lion, then russ are the best generals

 

to

 

-but horus, guilliman and dorn are also the best generals

Horus, Jonson and Russ (in that order) having the highest tally of victories is from 2nd Edition (2nd Ed. Codex Angels of Death, p. 67), Guilliman liberating more worlds than any other primarch (and with fewer own casualies, and with the worlds in the best conditions) is from 2nd Edition as well (2nd Ed. Codex Ultramarines, p. 12). I think Dorn has been elevated to "one of the top generals" by the BL Horus Heresy material, though the 3rd Edition Imperial Fists Index Astartes had described their early actions during the Great Crusade as "extremely successful".

[Candleshoes]

When they arrived on Terra, the Lion got so angry with Russ that he stabbed him in the chest, but his grief stopped him before he punctured the secondary heart.

 

Out of curiosity, what is the source from this? If it is published, it makes Nemiel look like peanuts and understandable.

[shortysl]

The Lion seems to have inherited from the Big E 2 things:

 

1) A boat load of arrogance,

2) A sense of entitlement,

 

I'm liking how well he's being portrayed if not the characteristics/

 

Rik

 

Which of the Primarchs DOESN'T demonstrate a boat load of arrogance?? They are as gods among men, and they know it. Or are you trying to suggest that being one of only 18 individuals in the entire galaxy isn't going to make you arrogant? When you're bred to be superior to every other being you're likely to encounter then arrogance is likely to be first amongst your characteristics.

 

As for the sense of entitlement, once again, they've been created to reclaim the galaxy for Humanity. They've been bred with an idea of their own self-importance; they're always going to believe they're entitled to respect, honour, and loyalty. It's the way with all arrogant men. And tyrants, interestingly enough.

[chaplain belisarius]

@legatus-thanks for that! (your like a fluff encyclopaedia!) I am finding it a bit difficult to stay on top of the fluff with all these books now (in my day..it was all codexes and white dwarf...maybe a story in inferno! too...now..its a torrent of new fluff...)

 

Wish i still had my codex;ultramarines and codex;angels of death (which was my first ever codex!)...

[Legatus]

I am finding it a bit difficult to stay on top of the fluff with all these books now (in my day..it was all codexes and white dwarf...maybe a story in inferno! too...now..its a torrent of new fluff...)

We are currently seeing somewhat of a major overhaul of the lore, and the 2nd, 3rd and even 4th Edition lore becomes more and more irrelevant. Almost like when the lore changed from Rogue Trader to 2nd Edition. The lore then had remained fairly consistent throughout 2nd, 3rd and 4th Edition, with the only major change being the Black Templars being changed from a Codex Chapter to a very divergent Chapter with almost no regard for the Codex. But in 5th Edition, both in the Codices and the Black Library books, GW has introduced some major retcons. I would even say that we are now essentially seeing a new "era", a third iteration of the 40K universe, after the original Rogue Trader one and the popular 2nd Edition one.

[Jim Shady]

The Lion was great at strategy and tactics, but he lacked charisma. I mean, we're talking about the guy who

unnecessarily judo chops Nemiel for questioning an order

. Even Chaos Horus isn't that uptight with his Sons.

 

He had a problem reading people too. Can't remember what novel/short story it was in...

[MadDoc]

Its a very old piece of fluff that was either in the Angels Of Death codex or a WD around the 2nd edition cant remember which.

This is incorrect its not that old a piece of fluff, it wasn't in C:AoD nor was it in a 2E era WD (or anywhere else earlier either), it was first in a WD from the 3E era (I'll try to find the exact issue number) and has yet to be reprinted anywhere else.

 

The stabbing reference must pre-date the Angels of Death codex from 2nd Ed. I've just checked my copy, and it only had the brawl between Russ and el'Jonson.

No, shintuhadoken was mistaken.

[BloodBrother]

Which of the Primarchs DOESN'T demonstrate a boat load of arrogance?

 

 

As far as I can remenber (though my knowledge about the subject might be out of date) Alpharius Omegon wasn't arrogant, Alpha Legion was only Legion that treated their non-Astartes brother in arms like equels, and Alpha Operatives had say in planning phase, just as Marines did, Alpharius was leader to them, but not 'Oh-My-God' Super Duper Awsome Father figure (even though every Alpha legionere was immitating Alpharius).

Sanguinius wasn't arrogant either, but Sanguinus was too noble for such thing.

 

But as I have said, I lack knowledge of events that transpired in latest novels, so there could have been characterization that I never heard of.

[Aegnor]

Just from an interpretation point of view, not based on any definite source, but I think both Alpharius and Omegon must be immensely arrogant. Their style of warfare and strategy is premised upon being confident you can outsmart your opponents and keep juggling all the complex schemes up in air at once. Maybe that's just supreme confidence, especially if you can back that thinking up by your actions. But I think you'd need a pretty massive level of arrogance regarding your abilities compared to everyone else to even make the attempt. I agree however that Alpharius Omegon take care to rarely, if ever, let others SEE their arrogance.

[Legatus]

The core theme of the Alpha Legion has always been that they want to demonstrate again and again that they are superior to everyone else. In the olden days, before there were "the twins", that was also their main motivation to turn to Chaos. While that has been retconned a bit, there are still some more recent BL stories like 'The Long Games at Carcharias' where the Alpha Legion aspires to demonstrate their superiority, in particular over the Codex Astartes doctrine.

 

Edit: I have not read Legion, but I don't believe for a second that the Alpha Legion Marines would treat human soldiers as their equals. They incorporate human elements in their plans more than other Chapters do, but they get special missions, and are certainly not the equals of Alpha Legion Marines.

[Aegnor]

You should read Legion - it's a really good read, IMO, and even if you don't like where it actually leads the Alpha Legion to, is worth the effort.

 

In Legion, they certainly DO treat selected, trusted, indoctrinated, human agents as equals. They don't hold the idea that a human can't be valuable to the Legion's cause - in some cases much more valuable than an individual marine. But don't be confused with what being "equal" means. Do they think humans are typically their physical or mental equals? Definitely not. Do they recognise that some humans will have specialised skills, access, or whatever that are as valuable, if not more, than any ability Marines hold? Definitely yes. Do they make a distinction between the two in terms of how they "value" someone, or "treat" someone. Not at all.

 

The other thing not to get confused by in this regard is to think that them treating human agents as equals to their marines means that they view their human agents in a better light than other chapters. This is backwards. The Alpha Legion are ultimate pragmatists. People, Astartes or human, are valued precisely to the degree that they are useful, and no-more. The second it becomes more advantageous in the service of the primarch's goals to betray a member of the legion to their death, rather than trust, value and protect them, that's what they do. It's not that they give their agents special treatment, it's that they don't give their marines special treatment. Everyone is expendable, everyone is likely to be lied to or used as pawn, but it is what is required to further their legion's goals. ANYONE who understands and accepts that this is the condition upon which they serve the legion is accorded the same level of respect and trust.

 

"What does the Primarch ask of us? Everything"

[chaplain belisarius]

@legatus-i know! theres a feeling that the fluff has gone from a trickle to a torrent(especially with all these limited edition books!). in my opinion this makes it a bit difficult to stay on top of it all and to seperate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak!:)

 

In my opinion-the lion was a great strategist/tactician...but was not a people person (ive always seen him as a bit like prowl from transformers...logical, not very good with people, great strategist..)

[Legatus]

In my opinion-the lion was a great strategist/tactician...

You often hear "primarch X was the greatest tactician", but I would say most of them had a particular way of fighting he was particularly good at. Jonson was not as good at covert operations as Corax was, for example, nor was he as good at protracted siege engagements as Dorn. Jonson, much like Guilliman and Horus, was more of a generalist. If one wanted to distinguish between the traits of the three, I would say Horus was one who would attempt to go for the throat of an enemy and end a campaign quickly. Jonson, from what I have briefly glimpsed in the Horus Heresy stories, was a master of predicting events and enemy actions and plan his moves accordingly. Guilliman, often described as a logistician (often meant depreceatory, as in not really being adapt at warfare itself), was concerned with each of his units working at maximum efficiency, applying them at the place and time where they would be most effective.

 

Essentially, their traits are:

 

Horus: Identifying the vital elements of the enemy and incapacitating it as quickly as possible.

 

Jonson: Predicting the development of a campaign and dealing with the steps accordingly.

 

Guilliman: Enabling your units to do whatever needs to be done, via. equipment, deployment and training.

 

 

Those are generalisations, of course. Each of them would also be very adapt at the other traits, but each has become a legend due to a focus on certain strengths.

[Cerelius]

Lion stabbed Russ a few times, it seems. Once for screwing up his plan, and another for making him late.

 

he didn't stab, he punched him, they then fought for a number of days with neither getting the upper hand, then Russ stops fighting and starts laughing. The Lion doesn't see the funny side of it and walks up to Russ and sparks him out and takes his boys off with him, and so starts the enmity between the Wolves of Fenris and the Sons of Caliban.

[Brother Ambroz]

Lion stabbed Russ a few times, it seems. Once for screwing up his plan, and another for making him late.

 

he didn't stab, he punched him, they then fought for a number of days with neither getting the upper hand, then Russ stops fighting and starts laughing. The Lion doesn't see the funny side of it and walks up to Russ and sparks him out and takes his boys off with him, and so starts the enmity between the Wolves of Fenris and the Sons of Caliban.

 

Actually a little farther up the page someone already linked an old piece of fluff where the Lion actually did stab Russ.

[Captain Idaho]

Lion stabbed Russ a few times, it seems. Once for screwing up his plan, and another for making him late.

 

he didn't stab, he punched him, they then fought for a number of days with neither getting the upper hand, then Russ stops fighting and starts laughing. The Lion doesn't see the funny side of it and walks up to Russ and sparks him out and takes his boys off with him, and so starts the enmity between the Wolves of Fenris and the Sons of Caliban.

 

Actually a little farther up the page someone already linked an old piece of fluff where the Lion actually did stab Russ.

 

They were separate incidents actually. The first spat was a fisticuffs at ten paces at the conclusion of that siege (forget the name).

 

Then they go for each other fully armoured and armed, with Russ' chainsword gnashing Jonhson's cheek who did something in return (again I forget).

 

Lastly, in the aftermath of the Seige of Terra when Russ has a break down in the Emperor's chamber, Johnson blames him for delaying their approach to Terra and therefore blames him not getting to the Emperor in time to intervene. He demands Russ stands up and fights, but Russ tells him to go away. Johnson comes back fully armoured and armed for a fight, but Russ only offers up his hearts to Johnson since he doesn't want to live anymore.

 

Johnson plunges his sword into Russ but reconsiders halfway through the stroke, so deflects the blow off Russ' rip cage to stop it being a fatal strike.

 

It was a great read actually, though again I cannot remember the White Dwarf it was in (recognise a theme?).

 

I have not read Legion, but I don't believe for a second that the Alpha Legion Marines would treat human soldiers as their equals. They incorporate human elements in their plans more than other Chapters do, but they get special missions, and are certainly not the equals of Alpha Legion Marines.

 

They do use them as bait actually, which was particularly callously done.

 

I always thought The Lion was supposed to be the greatest general...so if strategic aquity wasnt what he got from his father, what was his "emperor part gift"

 

Ex. magnus got the psychic potential

 

I actually hate this interpretation of the Primarchs and their creation. Sure there were a couple traits deliberately added to Primarchs, but much of the character, personality and methods of the Primarchs wasn't just based on a single, one dimensional plan by the Emperor. They were all Generals and geniuses, all warriors without peers except for amongst the panetheon of the Primarchs themselves.

 

We should give each of the Primarchs more credit than that!

 

It's the same reason I hate the interpretation "Chaos Gods planned everything and everything we do is because they wanted it to happen" - it removes conflict and the plots and turns of a story and cheapens then story.

 

So in summary; Lion El'Johnson was a genius tactician and capable of strategy up and above even many of his Brother Primarchs. He is an extremely capable warrior too, again considered highly amongst his peers. He doesn't have to have a unique trait gifted by the Emperor that singles him out. What singles him out is his personality; flaws and virtues both, his interactions and decisions with the events around him and all the rest of the characterisation any good story includes.

[Heru2012]

I stand by my view of the Lion. His lack of upbringing and guidance on Caliban, having to fend for himself led him to almost have the same ability to read human emotions as some types of autism.

He is directly lied to by Perturabo, allowing the theft of the weapons to the traitors.

Also his superintellect screams it, there is a moment where he gives a guy a stern talking to because he can calculate hyperspace equations in a thought. He can make sums up in his head that would take logic engines probably minutes to achieve yet he can't see the guy offering his hand in friendship whilst the other hand holds a dagger.

 

His lack of human upbringing would have caused him to spend ALOT of time in his own head, thinking constantly, working out the best ways to survive the gribblies of caliban. Hunted by things that could hunt him through the warp. If anything his lack of humanity and trust is the thing that makes him strong and weak. He's a once bitten, a billion times shy kind of guy. No one will ever screw him again. But that makes him no friends. But leaves him closed to the douchebaggery of his brahs. If anything he is probably one of the most interesting characters with some of the darkest and shady depths. He's hard to like. And for some reason I like that about him!

[Arkangilos]

I wonder how he is with Sanguinius.