Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[MadDoc]

I wonder how he is with Sanguinius.

Now theres a scene/interaction I'd like to read about...

[chaplain belisarius]

@heru2012-i like that post. The lion is pretty interesting! :D

[Guest pandion40]

I wonder how he is with Sanguinius.

Now theres a scene/interaction I'd like to read about...

 

 

Me to.

[Guest pandion40]

Deliverance Lost offers some relevant insight to this discussion. It indicates that the Primarchs had allot of scientific and technical data downloaded into their minds whilst in their pods. The emperor planed to give them Info on interpersonal relationships but they were stolen before that happened. This combined with the fact that they basically had extremely short childhoods due to their rapid growth explains why a number of them were very easy to manipulate.

 

 

It seems they had a very short window to learn all the behavioral stuff we all learn as we grow up. Those that got this early on seem to be much more emotionally healthy than those who had less conventional upbringings.

[Marshal Rohr]

Everybody was cool with Sanguinius. He was an angel. Though if one Primarch would be a jerk about Sanguinius having wings it would probably be the Lion.

[Veteran Sergeant]

LOL. No fewer than four primarchs have been credited with being "the most successful" or "unmatched" etc amongst them. Horus, Lion, Russ, and Guilliman. At this point, I think it's far to say that you can take any boasts of such with a grain of salt. It's possible that it's all just subjective based on whomever is telling the story at any given time, a sort of deliberate misinformation.

 

The most consistent interpretations from the various stories seem to suggest that Guilliman and Horus were essentially equals as generals, and Horus was chosen because he was the more charismatic and liked of the two. That's not to say that the Lion wasn't, but Guilliman and Horus were better at the "big picture" of campaign warfighting whereas primarchs like Lion and Russ were far more suited to the prosecution of individual actions.

[Antarius]

I stand by my view of the Lion. His lack of upbringing and guidance on Caliban, having to fend for himself led him to almost have the same ability to read human emotions as some types of autism.

He is directly lied to by Perturabo, allowing the theft of the weapons to the traitors.

Also his superintellect screams it, there is a moment where he gives a guy a stern talking to because he can calculate hyperspace equations in a thought. He can make sums up in his head that would take logic engines probably minutes to achieve yet he can't see the guy offering his hand in friendship whilst the other hand holds a dagger.

 

His lack of human upbringing would have caused him to spend ALOT of time in his own head, thinking constantly, working out the best ways to survive the gribblies of caliban. Hunted by things that could hunt him through the warp. If anything his lack of humanity and trust is the thing that makes him strong and weak. He's a once bitten, a billion times shy kind of guy. No one will ever screw him again. But that makes him no friends. But leaves him closed to the douchebaggery of his brahs. If anything he is probably one of the most interesting characters with some of the darkest and shady depths. He's hard to like. And for some reason I like that about him!

 

Seen in that light his betrayal at the hands of Perturabo would make even less sense though. From that interpretation he ought to have been more suspicious of Perturabo than would be reasonable, not less.

 

 

On an unrelated note, I really can't agree enough with the notion put forth in this thread that we ought to look at the primarchs not as embodying just one or two traits but see them as rather more complex beings (even if the HH books sometimes end up portraying them as a bit one-dimensional).

 

Oh and the notion of the Lion as a traitor or coward is completely absurd. Some of his defining traits is loyalty and determination -both traits that he has passed on to his legion. Arguably that's also why the Dark Angels of today are so haunted by their brothers' betrayal (unlike most other chapters that also harbored traitors).

[Heru2012]

 

 

Seen in that light his betrayal at the hands of Perturabo would make even less sense though. From that interpretation he ought to have been more suspicious of Perturabo than would be reasonable, not less.

 

I see what you mean, but I think it makes more sense that he was willing to trust his blood brothers, but

Perturabo screwing him overbroke the camels back, and any advances he had made in being more open were well and truly over. He had been lied to by his brother and that proved that the only ones he could trust was himself and the Emperor.

 

[Antarius]

Well that's a way of reconciling things that actually makes good sense.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I stand by my view of the Lion. His lack of upbringing and guidance on Caliban, having to fend for himself led him to almost have the same ability to read human emotions as some types of autism.

He is directly lied to by Perturabo, allowing the theft of the weapons to the traitors.

Also his superintellect screams it, there is a moment where he gives a guy a stern talking to because he can calculate hyperspace equations in a thought. He can make sums up in his head that would take logic engines probably minutes to achieve yet he can't see the guy offering his hand in friendship whilst the other hand holds a dagger.

 

His lack of human upbringing would have caused him to spend ALOT of time in his own head, thinking constantly, working out the best ways to survive the gribblies of caliban. Hunted by things that could hunt him through the warp. If anything his lack of humanity and trust is the thing that makes him strong and weak. He's a once bitten, a billion times shy kind of guy. No one will ever screw him again. But that makes him no friends. But leaves him closed to the douchebaggery of his brahs. If anything he is probably one of the most interesting characters with some of the darkest and shady depths. He's hard to like. And for some reason I like that about him!

 

Seen in that light his betrayal at the hands of Perturabo would make even less sense though. From that interpretation he ought to have been more suspicious of Perturabo than would be reasonable, not less.

 

 

On an unrelated note, I really can't agree enough with the notion put forth in this thread that we ought to look at the primarchs not as embodying just one or two traits but see them as rather more complex beings (even if the HH books sometimes end up portraying them as a bit one-dimensional).

 

Oh and the notion of the Lion as a traitor or coward is completely absurd. Some of his defining traits is loyalty and determination -both traits that he has passed on to his legion. Arguably that's also why the Dark Angels of today are so haunted by their brothers' betrayal (unlike most other chapters that also harbored traitors).

I dunno, it's a change to the fluff I'd be cool with. That the Lion actually eventually fell to Chaos, but that nobody actually knows or remembers and that's why the Dark Angels wear emo bathrobes. Or something like that. At least if it is done right. That sort of thing being part of the "secret" that even most of the Dark Angels don't know would add a lot of depth to their background.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I stand by my view of the Lion. His lack of upbringing and guidance on Caliban, having to fend for himself led him to almost have the same ability to read human emotions as some types of autism.

He is directly lied to by Perturabo, allowing the theft of the weapons to the traitors.

Also his superintellect screams it, there is a moment where he gives a guy a stern talking to because he can calculate hyperspace equations in a thought. He can make sums up in his head that would take logic engines probably minutes to achieve yet he can't see the guy offering his hand in friendship whilst the other hand holds a dagger.

 

His lack of human upbringing would have caused him to spend ALOT of time in his own head, thinking constantly, working out the best ways to survive the gribblies of caliban. Hunted by things that could hunt him through the warp. If anything his lack of humanity and trust is the thing that makes him strong and weak. He's a once bitten, a billion times shy kind of guy. No one will ever screw him again. But that makes him no friends. But leaves him closed to the douchebaggery of his brahs. If anything he is probably one of the most interesting characters with some of the darkest and shady depths. He's hard to like. And for some reason I like that about him!

 

Seen in that light his betrayal at the hands of Perturabo would make even less sense though. From that interpretation he ought to have been more suspicious of Perturabo than would be reasonable, not less.

 

 

On an unrelated note, I really can't agree enough with the notion put forth in this thread that we ought to look at the primarchs not as embodying just one or two traits but see them as rather more complex beings (even if the HH books sometimes end up portraying them as a bit one-dimensional).

 

Oh and the notion of the Lion as a traitor or coward is completely absurd. Some of his defining traits is loyalty and determination -both traits that he has passed on to his legion. Arguably that's also why the Dark Angels of today are so haunted by their brothers' betrayal (unlike most other chapters that also harbored traitors).

I dunno, it's a change to the fluff I'd be cool with. That the Lion actually eventually fell to Chaos, but that nobody actually knows or remembers and that's why the Dark Angels wear emo bathrobes. Or something like that. At least if it is done right. That sort of thing being part of the "secret" that even most of the Dark Angels don't know would add a lot of depth to their background.

 

I would hate this to be honest.

 

The Lion is more complex than merely 'paranoid' and/or emo, which he is not. instead of moping about things, he gets on and deals with it. He might not trust people, but does that make him uber paranoid? sure, but theres a heck of a lot more to it.

[Heru2012]

I dunno, it's a change to the fluff I'd be cool with. That the Lion actually eventually fell to Chaos, but that nobody actually knows or remembers and that's why the Dark Angels wear emo bathrobes. Or something like that. At least if it is done right. That sort of thing being part of the "secret" that even most of the Dark Angels don't know would add a lot of depth to their background.

 

I think its more likely for Fulgrim to smear poo on his face and run around flapping his arms whilst dressed in a bin bag, yelling "I AM A BEAUTIFUL BIRD! WATCH ME SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAR!", than it is for the Lion to turn away from the Emperor. Mind you, he may be trying to perfect some kind of interpretive modern dance....forget what I said about Fulgrim and insert something witty he's not likely to do after "It's more likely for Fulgrim to".

[Veteran Sergeant]

I dunno, paranoia is a great window for confusion, doubt, and mistrust. The Lion is certainly just as susceptible, in his modern iteration, to the influences and manipulations of Chaos as any of the primarchs that turned. Heck, even more so than some.

 

I'm not saying it's the right decision, I just said that if they do go that route, and do a good job selling it, I'd be down. It isn't like I'm saying he goes full retard and turns into a daemon prince. I just mean if it ends up that Luther was the good guy and Lion was manipulated and was the actual traitor, I'd be cool with it. But, then again, I don't really have an emotional investment in any of the primarchs or legions. I'd just be interested to read a good story. I know that when people have played armies for a long time, they get attached to characters associated with that legion/chapter/etc. I'd like to see the Dark Angels go back to being dark and ominous, like the old days.

[Kol Saresk]

If anything, it is possible that he could do something in the heat of the moment that could be considered as betraying the Emperor, much as he believes Gulliman consolidating all of the forces in the Eastern Fringe as a personal powerplay.

[Veteran Sergeant]

I'd like to add to my previous post that I'm even okay with, and in favor of, a higher body count amongst the primarchs. There are quite a few primarchs who play little to no part in the fluff after the Heresy and wouldn't be "missed" if they died. How many of the loyal primarchs just "disappear" at some point? How many of the traitors just end up doing absolutely nothing in the Eye of Terror? These guys could, some or all, be re-written to die dramatically. It would vastly improve the storyline, and wouldn't catastrophically retcon any established material.

 

I know that's pretty radical, and often received violently by emotionally invested fans. But the thing is, the primarchs were invented in a time when the background fluff wasn't established. At some point, it was realized that the primarchs were no longer around, so something had to explain what happened to them. I assume that "dying of old age" was considered too boring, haha. No less than three loyal primarchs inexplicably disappear, abandoning their chapters and their duties to the Imperium, lol. Another one gets lost. A fifth disappears into a Space Hulk. Only Guilliman gets an honorable "death", being felled by daemon prince Fulgrim. On the traitor side, it's almost worse. The only traitors to die are Horus and Curze (after the Heresy). Lorgar locks himself in a tower. Perturabo obsessively fortifies a demon world. Mortarion gets graffitied. Only Alpharius, Magnus, Fulgrim and Angron seem to have done anything in the intervening years, and in the case of the latter three, that's showing up once, lol. Alpharius either died, or faked his own death (just as planned).

 

If GW and BL decided to do something truly creative and exciting, it would be cool to see the fates of the primarchs be revised slightly. Certainly if Corax, Khan, Vulkan, Mortarion, or Lorgar die, what changes? Fundamentally I mean. And it could spice up the final battle a bit, or add to the legacy of the Scouring. I mean, how epic would a Post Heresy showdown between Guilliman and Lorgar be where Guilliman gets his deserved retribution against his jealous, petty, treacherous little brother? Or Dorn confronting Mortarion on the walls of the palace? Angron smashing Corax or Khan in a duel at Terra? This is some epic stuff that the Siege of Terra could really use.

[Aegnor]

Can't kill Dorn at Siege of Terra without changing/losing the Iron Cage incident, which would be a big shame.

 

In terms of switching it around so Jonson falls and Luther is actually the good guy, we've already seen Luther embrace sorcery, studying Chaos lore and seeking to control daemons. He's pretty much fallen.

[Kol Saresk]

I think it will be that both "fell". Luthor turns to sorcery and trying to use Chaos, much in the fashion of the Relictors and other Radicals. Meanwhile, the Lion will fall in his zealousness to save the Emperor. He sees everyone as an enemy and is willing to pay any price to save his lord from every threat both real and imagined, even to the point that it might cost his Legion.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Can't kill Dorn at Siege of Terra without changing/losing the Iron Cage incident, which would be a big shame.

Actually, I was suggesting Dorn kills Mortarion, heh. Mortarion plays no greater role in the fluff, while, as you mentioned, Dorn does, including boarding Horus's flagship.

[Chengar Qordath]

Can't kill Dorn at Siege of Terra without changing/losing the Iron Cage incident, which would be a big shame.

Actually, I was suggesting Dorn kills Mortarion, heh. Mortarion plays no greater role in the fluff, while, as you mentioned, Dorn does, including boarding Horus's flagship.

But if Mortarion died during the Heresy, then Kalidor Draigo would never be able to carve his buddy's name into Mortarion's heart! We all know what a shame that would be.

[Arkangilos]

I thought that in the end, all of the primarchs would come back for the end times and fight the last battle.

 

 

Anyways, I like it how it is with the primarchs.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I think it will be that both "fell". Luthor turns to sorcery and trying to use Chaos, much in the fashion of the Relictors and other Radicals. Meanwhile, the Lion will fall in his zealousness to save the Emperor. He sees everyone as an enemy and is willing to pay any price to save his lord from every threat both real and imagined, even to the point that it might cost his Legion.

 

does that not make him the most loyal? To the Emperor that is... In that case, he sounds much like a Templar :P

[lokkorex]

*Gasp!*

 

the Black Templars are in fact the Fallen?!

[Hellios]

but Guilliman and Horus were better at the "big picture" of campaign warfighting whereas primarchs like Lion and Russ were far more suited to the prosecution of individual actions.

 

I would disagree with this in that I don't think the Lions strength is related to individual actions but running campaigns. I would say he is more strategic than tactical. Where RG trumps him is logistics. So everything behind the scenes so to speak goes well for RG which then means his battles go fairly well and if they don't he can compensate anyway. Although RG may see the bigger pictures in terms of what happens once the fighting is over, while I doubt the lion cares much beyond doing his duty.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

but Guilliman and Horus were better at the "big picture" of campaign warfighting whereas primarchs like Lion and Russ were far more suited to the prosecution of individual actions.

 

I would disagree with this in that I don't think the Lions strength is related to individual actions but running campaigns. I would say he is more strategic than tactical. Where RG trumps him is logistics. So everything behind the scenes so to speak goes well for RG which then means his battles go fairly well and if they don't he can compensate anyway. Although RG may see the bigger pictures in terms of what happens once the fighting is over, while I doubt the lion cares much beyond doing his duty.

 

I would agree with this point.

 

Jonson was a master strategist as well as Tactician, like Horus. The biggest difference between Horus and Jonson was the ability of Horus to be Charismatic and that Jonson was paranoid. Jonson was equally good as big picture as little picture, most of the time, he just failed in being able to bring everyone alongside with him.

 

Guilliman was good at tactics and logistics, while good at strategy, but his main strength lay in administration. He had all the pieces where he needed them in order to win his battles. He was also in tune more with the vision of his father than his brothers, bar, perhaps, Lorgar who had the potential, just was misguided and Vulkan who cared for the people of the Imperium. This made him a successful commander as he had everything he needed, well trained troops, enough of them, supplied, equipped, quick replacement of troops etc. Of course, he was a superb general (they all were) however, he was not as good as either Horus or Jonson, imo. He won based on making sure he either a) could not lose or :D if he did it was easy to bounce back. His greatest strength lay in rebuilding, integrating and organisation.

[Legatus]

Guilliman was good at tactics and logistics, while good at strategy, but his main strength lay in administration. (...) His greatest strength lay in rebuilding, integrating and organisation.

I can totally understand how one might get that impression, and I would not really feel the need to correct it, but it just so happens that the descriptions of Guilliman's feats specifically point out where his strengths lay.

"The young Primarch grew quickly, and as he did so his unique physical and mental powers became obvious for all to see. By his tenth birthday he had studied and mastered everything the wisest men of Macragge could teach him. His insight into matters of history, philosophy and science astonished his elders, but his greatest talent lay in the art of war. A genius for military organisation prompted his father to give him command of an expeditionary force in the far north of Macragge."

(5th Eidtion Codex Space Marines, p. 12)

"The Ultramarines Legion of Space Marines was assigned to the control of Roboute Guilliman and its forward base relocated to Macragge. The Primarch quickly assimilated the many wonders of the Imperium and set about his new role with skill and enthusiasm. Guilliman's chief talents, as ever, lay in war, and he led the Ultramarines to fresh conquests in the galactic south."

(5th Eidtion Codex Space Marines, p. 13)

Guilliman is, of course, also described as being very good at establishing stable and efficient governments and rebuilding planets, and the same traits that made him a successful general probably also helped him with those kinds of tasks. And his achievements in establishing effective governed worlds and reforming the military of the Imperium are much more well known than any particular military exploits of his. So, as I said, I can understand how one might get the impression that that's where his real strengths lay. But according to his historical description he was not just a good organizer who also happened to apply those skill somehow to warfare and got the ressources together to fight successful campaigns, no, he was a gifted general first and foremost, and of all his talents that was the most defined.