Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Chengar Qordath]

All the Primarchs were gifted warriors/military leaders in one way or another though, so being skilled at warfare doesn't really make Guilliman stand out from the crowd.

 

What made him unique was his knack for organization/administration (which is a very important part of running any large military force). The Lion might come up with a brilliant battle plan and Horus might know hos to be an inspiring leader, but Guilliman could put together a bigger, better organized force with all the supplies they needed to get the job done.

 

While 40k usually treats logistics with the same sort of vague contempt that the laws of physics get, keeping supply lines running smoothly and efficiently so your army has everything it needs is a pretty huge deal. An army that doesn't have ammunition for their guns and gas for their vehicles isn't going to do very well. A commander who can consistently put together a larger, better-supplied force is almost always going to win.

[A D-B]

While 40k usually treats logistics with the same sort of vague contempt that the laws of physics get, keeping supply lines running smoothly and efficiently so your army has everything it needs is a pretty huge deal. An army that doesn't have ammunition for their guns and gas for their vehicles isn't going to do very well. A commander who can consistently put together a larger, better-supplied force is almost always going to win.

 

Imagine you attacked him at Calth and crippled his Legion. Imagine he was still so dangerous, because of the reason stated above and several others, that you still had to strike at him after Calth, again and again, to take him out of the game. He's the one guy you just couldn't leave at your back.

 

I think that'd make a cool subplot in a novel.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

While 40k usually treats logistics with the same sort of vague contempt that the laws of physics get, keeping supply lines running smoothly and efficiently so your army has everything it needs is a pretty huge deal. An army that doesn't have ammunition for their guns and gas for their vehicles isn't going to do very well. A commander who can consistently put together a larger, better-supplied force is almost always going to win.

 

Imagine you attacked him at Calth and crippled his Legion. Imagine he was still so dangerous, because of the reason stated above and several others, that you still had to strike at him after Calth, again and again, to take him out of the game. He's the one guy you just couldn't leave at your back.

 

I think that'd make a cool subplot in a novel.

 

I agree with this. This is just how I see him, hes the guy that, no matter how bad it gets, his organisation and training will kick in. Once down, you can't stop kicking him otherwise you will regret it. Probably what Lorgar regretted during the Scouring :lol:

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Yeah, those assets Guilliman took from the two eliminated Legions really helped him recoup from his failings as a general. :V

[Heru2012]

Yeah, those assets Guilliman took from the two eliminated Legions really helped him recoup from his failings as a general. :V

 

Yes, those supposed assets he took aswell as the marines he took, all on the hearsay from a couple of chatty sons of Lorgar!

[Chengar Qordath]

While 40k usually treats logistics with the same sort of vague contempt that the laws of physics get, keeping supply lines running smoothly and efficiently so your army has everything it needs is a pretty huge deal. An army that doesn't have ammunition for their guns and gas for their vehicles isn't going to do very well. A commander who can consistently put together a larger, better-supplied force is almost always going to win.

 

Imagine you attacked him at Calth and crippled his Legion. Imagine he was still so dangerous, because of the reason stated above and several others, that you still had to strike at him after Calth, again and again, to take him out of the game. He's the one guy you just couldn't leave at your back.

 

I think that'd make a cool subplot in a novel.

That's a good point. Those organizational skills mean Guilliman is probably the best of all the Primarchs when it comes to repairing/rebuilding his legion after heavy losses. It also helps that he's set up such a large resource base for his legion, so he has plenty of manpower/supplies to draw on when it comes time to replenish his numbers.

 

I can't help but think of a comparison to Deliverance Lost, where Corax just doesn't have the resources to fix his legion without the Emperor's help.

[Legatus]

Yeah, those assets Guilliman took from the two eliminated Legions really helped him recoup from his failings as a general. :V

Called it. ;)

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, those assets Guilliman took from the two eliminated Legions really helped him recoup from his failings as a general. :V

Called it. :D

 

Yep, people don't need facts when discussing Guilliman! Face it, Guilliman was the equal to Horus and Johnson at warfare, with the added benefit he was pretty hot at logistics too... :tu:

[Noserenda]

The Ultramarines conquered a lot of worlds, that does not mean Guilliman was one of the best Generals, I imagine the ultramarines were spread over a larger than usual number of Expeditionary fleets meaning that whilst Guillman personally had less victories than some of his brothers his legion was probably ahead in the total number of wins.

 

Equally that still makes him dangerous individually but I suspect he favoured solid, stable, Codex styled plans rather than the aggression of Russ, the Charisma of Horus or the Brilliance of Lion.

[Legatus]

The Ultramarines conquered a lot of worlds, that does not mean Guilliman was one of the best Generals, I imagine the ultramarines were spread over a larger than usual number of Expeditionary fleets meaning that whilst Guillman personally had less victories than some of his brothers his legion was probably ahead in the total number of wins.

The Legion achievements are rarely mentioned, but there are sources attributing the most victories to Horus, Jonson and Russ (in that order), and the most worlds liberated to Guilliman. The latter source also mentions that his methodology allowed him to conquer worlds faster than other Legions even before the Ultramarines grew to their exceptional size, so it was not just because the Legion later was able to undertake more campaigns simultaneously than other Legions.

[Chengar Qordath]

Honestly, when it comes to which of the Primarchs were the best general, I'd say it's entirely subjective. All of the Primarchs were great generals, and all of them had their own strengths and weaknesses.

[Hellios]

The latter source also mentions that his methodology allowed him to conquer worlds faster than other Legions

 

I never liked this bit. I would think that each world would take a different amount of time and that when another legion attacked a world that just rolled over they would be able to capture it in less time than it would take RG to capture hostile fortress world of doom. Or if his methods were so great big E or some other guy would be like adopt this man's strategy.

 

Captures worlds faster.

Leaves them in a better condition.

Loses less marines doing so.

 

No one emulates him? He must have been a real douche or something.

[Kol Saresk]

Honestly, when it comes to which of the Primarchs were the best general, I'd say it's entirely subjective. All of the Primarchs were great generals, and all of them had their own strengths and weaknesses.

Yeah this is the best approach. Like those quotes that A-D-B put up forever and a half ago about Sevatar and Khârn talking about why the Wolves were executioners, Khârn says (extremely paraphrased) "They're on a leash. We're not." And Sevatar says "The Wolves are quick and fast. We draw it out, destroying every world and poisoning any recruits until they die the slowest death. We are murderers first, last and always." It all depends on what you want the general for that makes them the "best" general.

[Legatus]

No one emulates him? He must have been a real douche or something.

For one thing it would not just be as simple as "adopting" his methods and then getting similar results. He grew up studying warfare on Macragge, and then studied what the Imperial archives had to offer. Other Primarchs, as quick and natural as strategic and tactical command would come to them when they were given command over a Space Marine Legion, did not have that same background. It would have taken some time, and possibly tutoring, to properly transfer Guilliman's methodology to another Primarch. Throughout the Great Crusade Guilliman was working on a compilation on warfare, which eventuelly the loyalist Chapters would adopt after the Heresy. When Guilliman offered his writings to Alpharius, he saw that as an insult.

[StrayCatt]

The implication I got from established fluff regarding Guilliman and the UM's 'victories' is that Segmentum Ultima was particularly ready/attuned to the Imperial Creed, and required far less compliance wars. The stories I recall reading imply that those systems in Ultima Segmentum were pretty much compliant in ideals, if not name. That would have allowed uiliman to achieve the greatest level of compliance with the fewest military actions.

 

Conversely, Horus had the longest operational period as a Legion master, which should've resulted in the highest number of succesful military campaigns. Johnsopn, however, only had 50 years to rack up his military career with the legion. When you consider that Johnson was supposed to be second only to Horus in Military victories with 1/4 the campaigning time, one can understand why Johnson would've felt he was a more effective military commander, and better suited to the rile of Warmaster. The statement in the HH novels though, is often IMO misinterpeted. His statement to Perturbo was that had he been the first found, he would've been Warmaster in Horus's stead. That is a valid statement IMO, because his record was equal to that of Horus, implying he is as good of a general. This is wrongly, IMO read as arrogance, and is instead a logical statement. Johnson's Hubris mirrored that of Guiliman, and to a small extent the Emperor, in that he thought he understood the best action to take once the heresy started. Guiliman attempted to rally the loyal legions to himself, seeing the Emperor's inaction/disappearance as a failure, and thinking it fell to him to resolve the situation. Johnson felt that, it seems from the Primarchs short stories, that the internecine fighting needed to continue until it drew his father from his self imposed reclusiveness.

 

Just my 2cents ...

 

-Adam

[Hellios]

No one emulates him? He must have been a real douche or something.

For one thing it would not just be as simple as "adopting" his methods and then getting similar results. He grew up studying warfare on Macragge, and then studied what the Imperial archives had to offer. Other Primarchs, as quick and natural as strategic and tactical command would come to them when they were given command over a Space Marine Legion, did not have that same background. It would have taken some time, and possibly tutoring, to properly transfer Guilliman's methodology to another Primarch. Throughout the Great Crusade Guilliman was working on a compilation on warfare, which eventuelly the loyalist Chapters would adopt after the Heresy. When Guilliman offered his writings to Alpharius, he saw that as an insult.

 

 

I don't know it seems RG was able to adopt other legions/primarchs methods and that normally when Primarchs turned their hand to something they mastered it pretty quickly and even exceeded those who taught them. I'mk pretty sure they could have learned in pretty short order if they had wanted to.

[Brother Ambroz]

I agree with Hellios. The Primarchs were easily able to adopt others strategies.

 

That thing with Alpharius kinda suprises me. Seems like he'd be one to learn everything he could about the way other people fought in order to improve his legion and learn to better infiltrate the others.

[Legatus]

That thing with Alpharius kinda suprises me. Seems like he'd be one to learn everything he could about the way other people fought in order to improve his legion and learn to better infiltrate the others.

Maybe he did look at it. He just didn't adopt the doctrines for his own Legion.

[Noserenda]

Didnt Guilliman basically hand him a book entitled "How to be a general" with a Patronising grin on his face? Thats a little insulting ;)

[Ubermensch Commander]

 

I agree with Hellios. The Primarchs were easily able to adopt others strategies.

Except that outside of Guilliman they really didn't. Oh the Primarchs may have occasionally borrowed a play from someone else's playbook, but the Legions and their gene-sires remained very independent about how they went about things.

There are several reasons for this, not the least of which being ego. These are demi-godlike beings whose only commanding figure is the Emperor and their incredibly small brotherhood of equals. They have their way of doing things and they are going to keep doing it, thanks much!
Another aspect is simple differing doctrinal apporches. One of the most salient examples is the conversation between Angron and Khârn in the short story After Dae'Shea (Sp?) While Khârn describes the World Eaters allied actions with the Iron Warriors and the Iron Warriors penchant for fortress based warfare, Angron snorts and mutter derisively to something along the lines of "Every wall can be breached" to which Khârn more or less replies "That's what I said!" Angron then explains his philosophy that speed is life and the aggressor dictates the pace of battle. This is very telling of the military approaches of the Primarchs.

Angron's approach is as valid as Perturabo's approach to war. But neither will change their ways, seeing their method as the preferred or superior method. Does this mean a World Eater will never take cover in an entrenched position, or an Iron Warrior will never pursue a lightning war without fortifying positions? Of course not, but it does mean they are not going to make it a part of their battlefield doctrine. They will not readily make the difficult organizational and structural changes to their armies without some sort of catastrophic event or outside influence.
As another example, despite the power of the Thousand Sons abilities, the Death Guard and Raven Guard openly scorned such things and refused to utilize psykers or fight alongside the Thousand Sons. Despite the efficacy of such powers, the two Legions refused to utilize such abilities. They might have had Librarians, but it was grudgingly accepted, not supported and nurtured.

The Legions chose not to follow another Legions methodology because each had their own. They took pride in it and felt it was the best way to persecute a war.

As for Guilliman handing a book "how to be a general", he made doctrinal suggestions to everyone, including Horus. He criticized, found ways to fix things, and then laid out it for his brothers. But again, we have ego and differing approaches to war making others refuse to adopt his ways.

[Captain Idaho]

The implication I got from established fluff regarding Guilliman and the UM's 'victories' is that Segmentum Ultima was particularly ready/attuned to the Imperial Creed, and required far less compliance wars. The stories I recall reading imply that those systems in Ultima Segmentum were pretty much compliant in ideals, if not name. That would have allowed uiliman to achieve the greatest level of compliance with the fewest military actions.

 

Conversely, Horus had the longest operational period as a Legion master, which should've resulted in the highest number of succesful military campaigns. Johnsopn, however, only had 50 years to rack up his military career with the legion. When you consider that Johnson was supposed to be second only to Horus in Military victories with 1/4 the campaigning time, one can understand why Johnson would've felt he was a more effective military commander, and better suited to the rile of Warmaster. The statement in the HH novels though, is often IMO misinterpeted. His statement to Perturbo was that had he been the first found, he would've been Warmaster in Horus's stead. That is a valid statement IMO, because his record was equal to that of Horus, implying he is as good of a general. This is wrongly, IMO read as arrogance, and is instead a logical statement. Johnson's Hubris mirrored that of Guiliman, and to a small extent the Emperor, in that he thought he understood the best action to take once the heresy started. Guiliman attempted to rally the loyal legions to himself, seeing the Emperor's inaction/disappearance as a failure, and thinking it fell to him to resolve the situation. Johnson felt that, it seems from the Primarchs short stories, that the internecine fighting needed to continue until it drew his father from his self imposed reclusiveness.

 

Just my 2cents ...

 

-Adam

 

I fear you are right about Johnson's interpretation of the war; he thought he knew better than everyone and allowed that belief to colour his actions. Allowing combat to continue on in an attempt to draw the Emperor is incredibly callous and (with hindsight) a mistake.

 

I hope Johnson doesn't become the big bad wolf of the BL regarding the Heresy, as it really appears he is heading that way.

 

I do disagree with Guilliman's alleged "hubris" though. Horus, Dorn, Horus' war council; they all agreed Guilliman couldn't interfere with the Heresy. Horus felt only Sanginius and Guilliman could stop him remember?

 

It's not hubris for Guilliman to feel that way too, especially when you consider his character in Know No Fear was far from the arrogant type.

 

Think you're being a little harsh. :lol:

 

As for the Ultima Segmentum being ready for compliance, I believe this too is a little harsh! It's the most lawless and full of Xenos in all the fluff I can find, and it sounds a little like trying to cheapen the acheivements of Guilliman and the Ultramarines by saying they had it easier than everyone else.

[Legatus]

The implication I got from established fluff regarding Guilliman and the UM's 'victories' is that Segmentum Ultima was particularly ready/attuned to the Imperial Creed, and required far less compliance wars. The stories I recall reading imply that those systems in Ultima Segmentum were pretty much compliant in ideals, if not name. That would have allowed uiliman to achieve the greatest level of compliance with the fewest military actions.

Methinks you are remembering reading stories about the realm of Ultramar, not about the Ultima Segmentum.

[deepsix81]

While 40k usually treats logistics with the same sort of vague contempt that the laws of physics get, keeping supply lines running smoothly and efficiently so your army has everything it needs is a pretty huge deal. An army that doesn't have ammunition for their guns and gas for their vehicles isn't going to do very well. A commander who can consistently put together a larger, better-supplied force is almost always going to win.

 

Imagine you attacked him at Calth and crippled his Legion. Imagine he was still so dangerous, because of the reason stated above and several others, that you still had to strike at him after Calth, again and again, to take him out of the game. He's the one guy you just couldn't leave at your back.

 

I think that'd make a cool subplot in a novel.

 

As hinted (strongly) in Know No Fear

Is this a not-at-all subtle hint as to an upcoming story?

Did the other legions/primarchs see RG in this way as well, or was this the kind of respect that they would have afforded to all of the different legions as well? In other words, was the UM's tenacity unique in some way or is this the kind of thinking that would have held with any of them?

[Kol Saresk]

To be honest, I think it applies to all of the Loyalist Legions. So much of the planning relies on one Legion being either destroyed or contained somewhere else. The Dark Angels had to be occupied with the Night Lords. The Ultramarines had to be contained, preferably destroyed, in Ultramar. The Wolves had to be kept wherever they were. Although ironically, on a galactic scale Prospero is the closest to Terra of any of the warzones if some of the maps are accurate. But this goes on and on. Until you get to the Massacred Legions. And each time it is either implicitly stated or strongly suggested that it is because they are the most powerful Legion, or are too big of a threat by themselves to be left alone. I believe this is part of the fanservice A-D-B mentioned.

[A D-B]

I believe this is part of the fanservice A-D-B mentioned.

 

It is a bit. But fan service is, in the sense I'm using it, "incorrect" to the point of being gratuitous. Say, for example, I was writing a massively popular Legion like the Space Wolves - and this is not a reference in any way to Dan and/or Prospero Burns. The answer works as well as with the Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Ultramarines, who are almost as popular. The easiest way to secure incredibly favourable reviews among the fanbase is to manipulate the lore so that they are objectively the best, and their primarch is "better" than the others.

 

This is incredibly easy to do. Like, crazy-easy. And, sometimes, it's hard to tell from just a decent presentation of a Legion, as many fans of the faction that looks great will resist any argument that they're being shown as unfairly awesome. But it's easy; let me show you.

 

F'rex, I could have knowledgeable, reliable characters referring to how the Space Wolves were better at another Legion's method of fighting than the Legion was already famous for. I could show another primarch fearful of Russ's prowess in a position that the other primarch was already famous for. Like if I made the Wolves better at the drop-podding speartip attack than the Luna Wolves, or the berserk fury of the World Eaters, or the terrorism of the Night Lords. That's fan service. That's gratuitous pandering to make a faction look awesome, at the expense of other factions. It's changing the lore, or misrepresenting it, to win over a popular faction's fans. Those Legions are already famous for those styles of attack, so making the Wolves better at them would be essentially bending the lore to make Space Wolf fans happier, to see their Legion as even better than another faction. Fans love that stuff. Not all, of course. But the ones most invested in seeing "their guys" win, and getting to grin about new-found lore showing their faction as The Best.

 

You should never need to lie to make a faction look good, nor give them someone else's job, nor should you make other factions look bad to do it. Yes, one side may have to lose in a conflict, maybe even humiliatingly, but it doesn't need to be unrealistic, or at the expense of making the victorious faction look strangely weak. (Of course, some fans see the setting differently, so any loss might be difficult for them to believe, depending on the circumstances).

 

Now, I think Dan avoided this (beyond a little awesome hype in his video trailer) by having it be in doubt if Russ really is the executioner; nothing was stated in absolute terms; and all the "The Wolves are the best" stuff was in-character hyperbole. So I don't consider Prospero Burns all that guilty of fan service, really.

 

So that's what I mean with Horus. I think the series could do with a touch of showing that the Luna Wolves were the most honoured, proud, elite Legion (even if it was only in "only slightly better" terms), and that Horus really was the best. That's what the lore has always stated. There's a reason he was the one Chaos chose, and it wasn't because he was the silver medal.