Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Kazak1920]

Maybe because Imperial Fists was withdrawn to Terra, to become praetorians of the Emperor. Next legion who was best suited for garrison missions was Iron Warriors.

 

BTW. If any BL author is reading this - please, stop making Lion such a dumbass. Before Horus Heresy series, he was my favourite primarch and now he isn't even likeable. More of that, most people suspects him for treachery or his own agenda. I didn't read story from "The Primarchs" yet, but I heard that he is there worst of all books about him. I hope that in future novels he will take a grip himself, because if not, this will be a big punch for DA fans... Regards.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes and no. I think what we saw was the Iron Warriors living by the credo "The best Defense is a good Offense" by building up a world with so many guns that no army could even reach the walls, much less assault them, unless it was one heck of an army. Like another Iron Warrior Grand Company. And then you have the Imperial Fists. They lived by the opposite credo, "The best Offense is a good Defense." Unfortunately, we haven't, I haven't seen a whole lot about the Imperial Fists in the Crusade and the Heresy except in passing. But in 40k, most of the fluff I have seen shows that they don't build structures, they fortify what is already there and then just fight attriition battles. Assuming all that they have done is compensated for lower numbers, this shows a primarily defensive strategy with the usual counter-assualts. Where the Iron Warriors go through the whole Third Parallel and Forlorn Hope and just make a fortress while they're at it.

[Legatus]

I really do thing "static warfare" is a better term for both the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors, rather than "defensive" or "offensive". But I guess other Legions were less known to build extensive fortifications, so they were perhaps a good deal more defensive oriented than those.

 

During the Great Crusade, the Imperial Fists were used as the strategic reserve to come in and deliver the final blow, or to crack defenses that proved to resilient for other forces. So they were used mainly as an offensive Legion, until th emoment when the Emperor retreated to terra and took the Imperial Fists with him. The Iron Warriors were often used to garrison worlds, but that was not exactly their choice. It was more a case of them drawing the short straw and being asked to perform that necessary duty. The Index Astartes of the Luna Wolves has a short passage where the Luna Wolves flat out refuse to leave behind forces to rebuild and fortify worlds they just liberated, and in some occasions they would leave the Ultramarines and the Iron Warriors behind for them to do it.

 

The Iron Warriors specialise in siege warfare. That means they prefer if teh enemy hides in a huge fortress, over merely destroying some ground forces, and they will then bring the most massive cannons in order to bombard that fortification to oblivion. Once the get a hold on a planet, they themselves billd massive fortifications, so that any attempt to dislodge them would result in an extremely bloody trench warfare.

 

The Imperial Firts did not really specialise in sieges, contrary to popular belief. But they were known for their excellent and meticulous battle plans, which were better suited for static warfare and obviously less so in campaigns where the conditions would constantly change. They were also very tenacious, give no ground on the defense and not give up in their attack. Those traits meant that they were naturally very adapt at either defending or attacking static defenses.

[chaplain belisarius]

people forget that the fists can fight defensive warfare (and are very good at it too) but ONLY if it is the best option...they prefer more aggressive tactics...

 

The iron warriors are the siege/defence specialists...

 

just my input...

[Kol Saresk]

O.O That is quite a bit of fluff I wasn't aware of. Thank you.

[chaplain belisarius]

@kol Saresk-if that was directed at me...no problem! i find it hard to keep up with the fluff sometimes myself...:)

 

I remember it from the imperial fists index astartes article...always mildly irks me when people think of the fists as a purely defensive legion...they were not.

 

back on topic-I am very interested to see where things go with the lion..

[Arkangilos]

I really do thing "static warfare" is a better term for both the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors, rather than "defensive" or "offensive". But I guess other Legions were less known to build extensive fortifications, so they were perhaps a good deal more defensive oriented than those.

 

During the Great Crusade, the Imperial Fists were used as the strategic reserve to come in and deliver the final blow, or to crack defenses that proved to resilient for other forces. So they were used mainly as an offensive Legion, until th emoment when the Emperor retreated to terra and took the Imperial Fists with him. The Iron Warriors were often used to garrison worlds, but that was not exactly their choice. It was more a case of them drawing the short straw and being asked to perform that necessary duty. The Index Astartes of the Luna Wolves has a short passage where the Luna Wolves flat out refuse to leave behind forces to rebuild and fortify worlds they just liberated, and in some occasions they would leave the Ultramarines and the Iron Warriors behind for them to do it.

 

The Iron Warriors specialise in siege warfare. That means they prefer if teh enemy hides in a huge fortress, over merely destroying some ground forces, and they will then bring the most massive cannons in order to bombard that fortification to oblivion. Once the get a hold on a planet, they themselves billd massive fortifications, so that any attempt to dislodge them would result in an extremely bloody trench warfare.

 

The Imperial Firts did not really specialise in sieges, contrary to popular belief. But they were known for their excellent and meticulous battle plans, which were better suited for static warfare and obviously less so in campaigns where the conditions would constantly change. They were also very tenacious, give no ground on the defense and not give up in their attack. Those traits meant that they were naturally very adapt at either defending or attacking static defenses.

 

I always remember the Imperial Fists being masters at defending. And the first Horus Heresy book kind of reinforced that.

 

But, I do agree with it being their personality fitting what defensiveness is.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Maybe because Imperial Fists was withdrawn to Terra, to become praetorians of the Emperor. Next legion who was best suited for garrison missions was Iron Warriors.

 

BTW. If any BL author is reading this - please, stop making Lion such a dumbass. Before Horus Heresy series, he was my favourite primarch and now he isn't even likeable. More of that, most people suspects him for treachery or his own agenda. I didn't read story from "The Primarchs" yet, but I heard that he is there worst of all books about him. I hope that in future novels he will take a grip himself, because if not, this will be a big punch for DA fans... Regards.

 

As a DA fan, I cannot disagree more with you. I love the Lion, and I think the latest short story did a lot of good. Yes, he killed Nemial...which was almost out of character. He does have his own agenda, like all Primarchs, including Guilliman, Dorn and Corax. His agenda is to save the Emperor as, well, the Emperor.

 

The Lion is the most loyal of the loyalists to the Emperor, for him the worst outcome is not the destruction of the Imperium, but the death or removal of the Emperor as the leader of humanity. The Imperium can be rebuilt, not so the Emperor, without the Emperor, to Jonson, their can be no true Imperium. Any successor is an imposter, and, because of this, he feels he can be the only Primarch to succeed Horus as Warmaster. This can also be why he does not like Guillimans plan which is basically sit tight, hold out and start the rebuild. He would rather burn down the Imperium in order to bring Horus to see that his rebellion is futile... even if it costs him his Legion.

 

I think BL has shown the correct balance of paranoia, mistrust as well as loyalty, combat skills, tactical and strategic ingenuity.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

I think it's more a matter of strategic aquity only being part of what makes a great general. The Lion is the superior tactician, but Horus was a much better leader of men.

 

Running a legion is going to require an understanding of soldier, personalities, the ability to control any internal politicking, and a knack for inspiration. The Lion is far too secretive and taciturn to really be good at that side of things.

Yup, this sounds right.

 

The Lion is actually the introverted kind, while Horus is extraverted, and thus naturally charismatic. Introversion has the particularity to make the subject thinks, and thinks more and more until a state of perfection in a problem to solve is eventually achieved, depending of your intellectual "bagage".

 

When you are extraverted, you are actually turned toward the others, and you won't generally find tricks by your own. Thus the Lion is probably the strategist here. Horus the Charismatic kind.

 

Which does not forbid the Lion, centuries after (he is still alive), to have learnt from his "affliction", and be more open. ;)

 

Cheers-

[Arkangilos]

Maybe because Imperial Fists was withdrawn to Terra, to become praetorians of the Emperor. Next legion who was best suited for garrison missions was Iron Warriors.

 

BTW. If any BL author is reading this - please, stop making Lion such a dumbass. Before Horus Heresy series, he was my favourite primarch and now he isn't even likeable. More of that, most people suspects him for treachery or his own agenda. I didn't read story from "The Primarchs" yet, but I heard that he is there worst of all books about him. I hope that in future novels he will take a grip himself, because if not, this will be a big punch for DA fans... Regards.

 

As a DA fan, I cannot disagree more with you. I love the Lion, and I think the latest short story did a lot of good. Yes, he killed Nemial...which was almost out of character. He does have his own agenda, like all Primarchs, including Guilliman, Dorn and Corax. His agenda is to save the Emperor as, well, the Emperor.

 

The Lion is the most loyal of the loyalists to the Emperor, for him the worst outcome is not the destruction of the Imperium, but the death or removal of the Emperor as the leader of humanity. The Imperium can be rebuilt, not so the Emperor, without the Emperor, to Jonson, their can be no true Imperium. Any successor is an imposter, and, because of this, he feels he can be the only Primarch to succeed Horus as Warmaster. This can also be why he does not like Guillimans plan which is basically sit tight, hold out and start the rebuild. He would rather burn down the Imperium in order to bring Horus to see that his rebellion is futile... even if it costs him his Legion.

 

I think BL has shown the correct balance of paranoia, mistrust as well as loyalty, combat skills, tactical and strategic ingenuity.

 

 

And I thought that the suspected of treachery has been around since the old Dark Angel book,

where the Fallen had said that

. And I mean the one that is set in the 40k Universe, not HH. And other people say the recent books cleared that up.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

BTW. If any BL author is reading this - please, stop making Lion such a dumbass. Before Horus Heresy series, he was my favourite primarch and now he isn't even likeable. More of that, most people suspects him for treachery or his own agenda. I didn't read story from "The Primarchs" yet, but I heard that he is there worst of all books about him. I hope that in future novels he will take a grip himself, because if not, this will be a big punch for DA fans... Regards.

 

That's the point, the Lion isn't likeable.

 

He's liek a Nietzchean from Andromeda, it's not about being liked or being good it's about survival and superiority.

[Kazak1920]

I didn't read story from "The Primarchs" yet,

Yes, he killed Nemial...

Ehhhhh. Really, thx...

[Captain Idaho]

The Lion is the most loyal of the loyalists to the Emperor...

 

I see this claim a lot but it always seems to be forgotten in the outset of civil war and treachary, Johnson's first thought was to securing his own position (remember the deal with Peturabo?), or it's forgotten Nemiel was actually pointing out the Emperor's orders on Psykers when he was executed.

 

So you'd have to forgive me if I don't see the Lion as the most loyal of the loyal.

 

Besides, that accalade goes to Sanguius who would allow his soul to be destroyed if it meant he kept his loyalty unblemished.

[Billuriye]

I see this claim a lot but it always seems to be forgotten in the outset of civil war and treachary, Johnson's first thought was to securing his own position (remember the deal with Peturabo?), or it's forgotten Nemiel was actually pointing out the Emperor's orders on Psykers when he was executed.

 

So you'd have to forgive me if I don't see the Lion as the most loyal of the loyal.

 

While the term "the most loyal" sounds like hogwash to me, the examples you stated don't really fault Lion for his loyalty. With Horus gone bad a new warmaster(or a similar lead) is much needed. And Lion, based on his track record and efficiency is trying to gain support for it while being combat active as possible. He's not screwing any major plans or botching crucial battles for the sake of his own ambition or anything. As for the second case, the edict of Nikea can go to hell when you are attacked by warp itself. Every reasonable primarch agrees so such as Guilliman.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh I agree the ban on Librarians needed to be changed and I agree with the Lion's position, however, executing a senior officer of the Legion for refusing to disobey the Emperor?

 

I mean really, what kind message does that send to the Legion? Obey the Emperor over Johnson and you are awarded with death? Where have we see that before?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

i think is not so much 'obey me over the Emp' but 'yes, hes wrong and will be punished after we win the battle not before. let us win, then we discuss the Emperor's edict.' It is messy...but not as serious as other acts of 'obey me over the Emp'.

[Vesper]

i think is not so much 'obey me over the Emp' but 'yes, hes wrong and will be punished after we win the battle not before. let us win, then we discuss the Emperor's edict.' It is messy...but not as serious as other acts of 'obey me over the Emp'.

 

"Let me prove you I'm right by killing you."

Surprisingly, I'm not buying it. You have to admit it is a bit weird to kill his own officer.

[Captain Idaho]

Definitely. It was such a sensitive issue he should have detained Nemiel until a later date. Even if the message wasn't intended to tell the Legion not to disobey the Emperor, but as a lowly trooper it would be hard to not feel the message was "obey me over all else, even the Emperor, or die".

 

I don't see any of the other loyal Primarchs behaving the way he did.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

from the way it's worded...it appears like he intended to hit him to discipline him rather than kill him. The death appears, i dunno, almost 'accidental'. We can argue whether or not he meant to do it all day, the fact is he struck him, and then caused his death. I see it more as a disciplinary action gone wrong rather than 'obey me or die'. If we read it, Nemiel was pulling a gun on his Primarch (or at least thats how I read it), it could be justified in self-defence as well

 

Thorpe probably does not want us to read too much into it, though, like Astelan's comments :P

[MadDoc]

Thorpe probably does not want us to read too much into it, though, like Astelan's comments :P

Meaning, of course, that all the anti-DA/Lion folks will of course sieze on it and try to use it to paint the Lion/DA as traitorous and will refuse to accept anything which counters the axe their grinding (even the author stating that they're misinterpreting what was written or later exposition which shows the situation in its true light).

 

I wish I could say I was surprised to see the usual suspect DA-haters pop up in this thread, but I'd be lying if I did...

[Lord_Caerolion]

I agree with Hellios. The Primarchs were easily able to adopt others strategies.

 

That thing with Alpharius kinda suprises me. Seems like he'd be one to learn everything he could about the way other people fought in order to improve his legion and learn to better infiltrate the others.

The whole "We specialize at this" fluff behind the Legions has never really made any sense. When you consider the vastness of the galaxy, and the number of different kinds of campaigns, terrains, environments, enemies, etc that would be encountered, the Space Marine legions would have had to, out of necessity, be the most specialized of generalists. As in, good at pretty much everything. There's no room for a Legion that specializes in unconventional warfare, or in armored assaults, or terror tactics, because it isn't like they were being dispatch on specialist missions across the galaxy. It was more like "Here's your slice of the galactic pie, I want all this area conquered by 1000 Tuesdays from now, let me know how it goes." Now, a Space Marine Chapter that has a general goal? Maybe. That's a relatively small organizational unit. But they're still going to be good at everything, and everyone else is going to be really good at what they do too. The problem with saying "These guys are specialists at X" is because to the average layperson, that's going to read as "These guy are way better at this" or worse "The other Chapters/Legions aren't any good at this".

 

I think you're overstating the nature of the specialisation. They're still astartes, they're all trained in conventional tactics, they can all make good use of those tactics. It isn't like the Blood Angel training is "here's how to use a jump pack, this is how you chop stuff, training is now complete, so go jump around and chop stuff". The Night Lords may specialise in terror tactics, but they can still fight fearless stuff. Case in point, they held off the Dark Angels for part of the Heresy. Blood Angels still have most of their Legion as Tacticals. Iron Warriors have Assault Squads. White Scars have infantry. They can use some tactics more efficiently, but it doesn't mean they use those tactics to the exclusion of all others. To put it another way, the martial art I learned some of was tae kwon do, which focusses on kicks. You could say specialises in them. It doesn't mean I can't punch people, I learned how to do that effectively too. It just means I know more about kicking, and prefer that if I've got a choice.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Some of you guys are all quite confused, lol. I'm not saying the Space Marines Chapters are specialized. I'm saying it's ludicrous that some people suggest that they are, and explaining why the couldn't/wouldn't be.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

Meaning, of course, that all the anti-DA/Lion folks will of course sieze on it and try to use it to paint the Lion/DA as traitorous and will refuse to accept anything which counters the axe their grinding (even the author stating that they're misinterpreting what was written or later exposition which shows the situation in its true light).

 

I wish I could say I was surprised to see the usual suspect DA-haters pop up in this thread, but I'd be lying if I did...

Well MadDoc I think several non-DA players here have a point. Althought at war (I mean total war which is the case in the universe of 40K) you don't need friends and friendship, generally this is respect of your abilities you want so that your orders are precisely respected!, and if you mix both, hello the consequences, my vote for the most "sympathetic" and "human" Chapter goes to the Space Wolves of course.^^ Not the Dark Angels. This is is nor surprising neither new though. And the man, Leman Russ, had the 3rd tallest number of victories, with then the Ultramarines probably. Point taken.

 

Also this :

 

He's like a Nietzchean from Andromeda, it's not about being liked or being good it's about survival and superiority.

 

Finally, Lion'el Jonson "not liked" okay, "traitorous", no please

 

Cheers

[Captain Idaho]

from the way it's worded...it appears like he intended to hit him to discipline him rather than kill him. The death appears, i dunno, almost 'accidental'. We can argue whether or not he meant to do it all day, the fact is he struck him, and then caused his death. I see it more as a disciplinary action gone wrong rather than 'obey me or die'. If we read it, Nemiel was pulling a gun on his Primarch (or at least thats how I read it), it could be justified in self-defence as well

 

Thorpe probably does not want us to read too much into it, though, like Astelan's comments :D

 

What what what? I've read been discussing this issue many times, with DA fans even trying to justify an execution, but this is the first time anyone said this and it's crucial. I haven't the book and don't get paid until next week so I've been relying on spoilers.

 

So Nemiel went for his weapon huh? That changes everything! It changes Johnson from behaving just like Horus, to solidifying the mistrust of his own Legion. It shows him less as a blood thirsty tyrant and more of a man being swallowed by events and barely being able to handle them. It's showing him as being more human.

 

Now that's a Johnson I want to read about, instead of the inflappible, inhuman, calculated traitor even some of the DA fans were making him out to be.

 

That's the last time I'm going to rely on other people to interpret an event in spoiler tags as my source. A fool's mistake perhaps, but I would have thought multiple people defending their favourite faction would have brought something crucial like that up.

[Legatus]

So Nemiel went for his weapon huh?

Nope.