Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Captain Idaho]

Ah.

 

False alarm.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I thought he did.

 

Now I have to re-read the episode...

 

EDIT: Ahhh, appears I was wrong, my apologies... I must have misread that wrong. Though, reading it again...appears there is no real justification other than the Lion lost it and in his rage accidentally killed him

[Captain Idaho]

I thought he did.

 

Now I have to re-read the episode...

 

EDIT: Ahhh, appears I was wrong, my apologies... I must have misread that wrong. Though, reading it again...appears there is no real justification other than the Lion lost it and in his rage accidentally killed him

 

Yeah I think it is a natural conclusion a fan would make in these circumstances; you read something and naturally draw a logical reason why something happened and it influences your interpretation of the actual events. We all do it.

 

However, you are a misleading monkey! :P

 

Tell you what though, accidently killing the senior officer is worse in many ways than doing it deliberately. It implies the Lion is losing his control and reason and becoming unpredictable. It's a plot hook I'm really enjoying.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I'm a little annoyed at this "The Lion is betraying the Emperor by killing his Chaplain" stuff.

 

Doesn't anybody recognise chain of command anymore? The Lion made a decision based on the tactical circmstance and his SUBORDINATE decides it's a bad idea and refuses to follow the chain of command.

 

It's Emperor, Primrch, Chaplain not Emperor, Chaplain, Primarch.

 

Nemiel was out of line, not the Lion, and he was asking for censure by arguing with his senior officer and his attitude could be considered mutinous. The lion had to make an example, perhaps execution was a bit extreme but nemiel was in the wrong, not the Lion.

[Billuriye]

Nemiel was out of line, not the Lion, and he was asking for censure by arguing with his senior officer and his attitude could be considered mutinous. The lion had to make an example, perhaps execution was a bit extreme but nemiel was in the wrong, not the Lion.

 

Lion was hella wrong. Nemiel was being obtuse but that doesn't warrant a summary execution. You don't kill your little brother for obeying Emperor's creed. Still doesn't make Lion disloyal to Emperor however. But he's sure as sh*t not a Warmaster material he thinks he is.

[Captain Idaho]

The lion had to make an example, perhaps execution was a bit extreme but nemiel was in the wrong, not the Lion.

 

You've even acknowledged it yourself; execution was extreme. No one denies a punishment was in order, but what is the example being sent to his men?

 

"You disobey me, even if following the orders of the Emperor, you die."

 

There are other Primarchs who did the same thing and they all sided with Horus. Regardless of intent, Johnson sent an awful message to his Legion.

[Candleshoes]

So Nemiel went for his weapon huh? That changes everything! It changes Johnson from behaving just like Horus, to solidifying the mistrust of his own Legion. It shows him less as a blood thirsty tyrant and more of a man being swallowed by events and barely being able to handle them. It's showing him as being more human.

 

It's a tough scene, and when people break it down to a handful of words, wave the execution flag, it really doesn't do it justice, and it really misses the mark of what it meant. I'll try and paint a concise picture.

 

First off, Nemiel had his gun and his crozius in his hands already, about to execute the prisoner kneeling Librarian on the spot "The punishment of oath-breakers brooks no delay." It is Corswain that is horrified at the notion and at the scene, and actually the Lion stands alongside Nemiel and states that he broke the edict and must be punished. Nemiel is outraged that they are talking, rather than killing that which is the same as the Night Lords have unleashed on their ship. The Lion actually has to remind Nemiel that is is his judgment as a Primarch that will stand, and he has not yet cast his verdict, even though Nemiel already has.

 

Corswain was the logical one and asks the all important question, did the sorcery used against a foe almost impenetrable to physical blows, work? This is where things start to go awry. This peaks the Lion's interest, and you can almost see the sprockets in his mind turn as he plays the tactical advantages of having several Librarians able to kill the daemons or "Nephilla" as they are called on Caliban. Corswain is the highest ranked officer under the Lion and his advisor, the equivalent of Khârn for the World Eaters or Raldoron for the Blood Angels. Corswain passes his advisement that they are not wholly physical and that physical weapons do little damage to their flesh - the suggestion here matches with the sprockets already turning in the Lion's mind, this just reinforces it when the Chief Navigator walks in and states that they are pure creatures of the warp.

 

The Lion then turns to the kneeling Librarian and asks if his powers can harm their attackers, who states they can banish them back. The Lion lifts the Librarian back to his feet, with Nemiel still standing weapon in hand ready for the execution. The librarian states that he still did break his oath, the Lion then says, "A grave crime, one that I will be sure to prosecute properly when the current situation has been resolved." The Lion asks for the other librarians to be rounded up and gathered. It is important to note that the Lion states that what was done was wrong, and that he will punish the Librarian.

 

Nemiel at this point states that further unleashing sorcery will endanger them more and asks the Lion to think again. The Lion reminds Nemiel that he has issued an order, which is retorted by Nemiel "One that I cannot follow." The Lion reminds Nemiel that his authority is absolute (I take this as: The Lion was presented with a situation while under extreme duress, the Lion listened to the arguements on all sides and decided for the good of the Legion to make a choice. This choice comes at a price, one which the Lion has decided he will bear the burden of later, as he is not ignorant of the consequences. Nemiel doesn't back down.) and Nemiel reminds the Lion that there is no higher authority than the Emperor.

 

It should be noted, that at this moment when the Lion strikes Nemiel, it specifically describes that ceramite was embedded in the Lion's fingertips, something that would only occcur with a open faced slap, which corresponds to the arc of the head when it flies. Obviously anger and misjudgment take hold, illuded to with the vision of satisfaction, but "The Lion seemed to realise what he had done and his face twisted in with pain as he knelt beside the remains of the Brother Redemptor." There is remorse. The likely reasoning, is that he struck his little brother out of rage, with a strength that would have meant nothing to a primarch, but is fatal to an astartes. This isn't the execution many make it out to be, it was simply a very unfortunate outcome to a very tense situation. Many keep saying that only the fallen primarchs have done or could do this type of thing, but the Lion's remorse takes this beyond that.

 

Make of it what you will.

[Captain Idaho]

Thank you so much Candleshoes. I get paid this weekend and will buy the book so I can enjoy the contraversy. :P

 

See, I'm liking that better. I like the portrayal of a Primarch who is hurting and frustrated. He has forgotten himself, just for a moment, but in a way which he can never forgive himself for. He didn't mean to do what he did, but had to stand by it. He's becoming unstable, but not because of fault of his own, but because he is smaller than the universe around him and it's taking it's toll on him.

 

It's deep and makes me actually like Johnson. He's not a fool. He's just in a situation he cannot control; a man who has never tasted defeat and never felt like he couldn't control events. It's an impotency that would drive anyone to the edge.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

There are other Primarchs who did the same thing and they all sided with Horus. Regardless of intent, Johnson sent an awful message to his Legion.

 

This attitude bugs me. So a Primarch who takes extreme action is a bad Primarch?

 

What about Russ? He goes into Prospero all guns blazing and doesn't even TRY to negotiate, no calls for surrender, no last minute attempt to settle things. He goes in fast, hard and fires first. Does this make him traitor material?

 

Johnson sent a message to his Legion, the message is obey me. There is a civil war going on, he can not afford any weak links. I don't like this black and white nonesense creeping in about good guys and bad guys.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

There are other Primarchs who did the same thing and they all sided with Horus. Regardless of intent, Johnson sent an awful message to his Legion.

 

This attitude bugs me. So a Primarch who takes extreme action is a bad Primarch?

 

What about Russ? He goes into Prospero all guns blazing and doesn't even TRY to negotiate, no calls for surrender, no last minute attempt to settle things. He goes in fast, hard and fires first. Does this make him traitor material?

 

Johnson sent a message to his Legion, the message is obey me. There is a civil war going on, he can not afford any weak links. I don't like this black and white nonesense creeping in about good guys and bad guys.

 

Actually, Russ asked Magnus to surrender through what he believed was Magnus's spy in his legion. Prospero Burns has Russ asking Magnus through Hawser to surrender himself and his Legion, and allow the civilians to flee Prospero alive. He practically begs his brother to surrender to him and present himself to the Emperor.

 

More importantly, Russ is there on orders from the Emperor to perform his judgment at the Council of Nikea, with both the Custodes and Sisters of Silence supporting his Wolves. This shows that his mission has the approval of a being able to command the Custodes. Unless i am very much mistaken, only the Emperor can, especially in such numbers.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

There are other Primarchs who did the same thing and they all sided with Horus. Regardless of intent, Johnson sent an awful message to his Legion.

 

This attitude bugs me. So a Primarch who takes extreme action is a bad Primarch?

 

What about Russ? He goes into Prospero all guns blazing and doesn't even TRY to negotiate, no calls for surrender, no last minute attempt to settle things. He goes in fast, hard and fires first. Does this make him traitor material?

 

Johnson sent a message to his Legion, the message is obey me. There is a civil war going on, he can not afford any weak links. I don't like this black and white nonesense creeping in about good guys and bad guys.

 

Actually, Russ asked Magnus to surrender through what he believed was Magnus's spy in his legion. Prospero Burns has Russ asking Magnus through Hawser to surrender himself and his Legion, and allow the civilians to flee Prospero alive. He practically begs his brother to surrender to him and present himself to the Emperor.

 

More importantly, Russ is there on orders from the Emperor to perform his judgment at the Council of Nikea, with both the Custodes and Sisters of Silence supporting his Wolves. This shows that his mission has the approval of a being able to command the Custodes. Unless i am very much mistaken, only the Emperor can, especially in such numbers.

 

WLK

 

Except that the Emperor wanted Russ alive.

[Captain Idaho]

There are other Primarchs who did the same thing and they all sided with Horus. Regardless of intent, Johnson sent an awful message to his Legion.

 

This attitude bugs me. So a Primarch who takes extreme action is a bad Primarch?

 

Did I say he was a bad Primarch? I said he sent an awful message to his Legion, and it seems that his intent wasn't to kill Nemiel after all, instead it was a mistake. Now if you acknowledge it was a mistake, then you also acknowledge it's potential for disruption of the Legion's morale and even ethics.

 

You're looking at it from a perspective not of the ordinary Legionaires. Imagine you're a trooper and you hear the gossip that Johnson has countermanded the orders of the Emperor on the Librarius, and Nemiel resisted and was killed for it. You won't have the omnipotence we have to justify the actions, only hearsay and perspective. It will polarise the Legion.

 

Intentional or not, it was a big mistake.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

There are other Primarchs who did the same thing and they all sided with Horus. Regardless of intent, Johnson sent an awful message to his Legion.

 

This attitude bugs me. So a Primarch who takes extreme action is a bad Primarch?

 

What about Russ? He goes into Prospero all guns blazing and doesn't even TRY to negotiate, no calls for surrender, no last minute attempt to settle things. He goes in fast, hard and fires first. Does this make him traitor material?

 

Johnson sent a message to his Legion, the message is obey me. There is a civil war going on, he can not afford any weak links. I don't like this black and white nonesense creeping in about good guys and bad guys.

 

Actually, Russ asked Magnus to surrender through what he believed was Magnus's spy in his legion. Prospero Burns has Russ asking Magnus through Hawser to surrender himself and his Legion, and allow the civilians to flee Prospero alive. He practically begs his brother to surrender to him and present himself to the Emperor.

 

More importantly, Russ is there on orders from the Emperor to perform his judgment at the Council of Nikea, with both the Custodes and Sisters of Silence supporting his Wolves. This shows that his mission has the approval of a being able to command the Custodes. Unless i am very much mistaken, only the Emperor can, especially in such numbers.

 

WLK

 

Except that the Emperor wanted Russ alive.

 

I am assuming you meant to type Magnus instead of Russ there.

 

His speech at Nikea was pretty explicit with what the Emperor warned Magnus with... what the Emperor wanted was lost when Magnus performed his daemonic door knocker. After that, all bets were off.

 

WLK

[Vesper]

There are other Primarchs who did the same thing and they all sided with Horus. Regardless of intent, Johnson sent an awful message to his Legion.

 

This attitude bugs me. So a Primarch who takes extreme action is a bad Primarch?

 

What about Russ? He goes into Prospero all guns blazing and doesn't even TRY to negotiate, no calls for surrender, no last minute attempt to settle things. He goes in fast, hard and fires first. Does this make him traitor material?

 

Johnson sent a message to his Legion, the message is obey me. There is a civil war going on, he can not afford any weak links. I don't like this black and white nonesense creeping in about good guys and bad guys.

 

Actually, Russ asked Magnus to surrender through what he believed was Magnus's spy in his legion. Prospero Burns has Russ asking Magnus through Hawser to surrender himself and his Legion, and allow the civilians to flee Prospero alive. He practically begs his brother to surrender to him and present himself to the Emperor.

 

More importantly, Russ is there on orders from the Emperor to perform his judgment at the Council of Nikea, with both the Custodes and Sisters of Silence supporting his Wolves. This shows that his mission has the approval of a being able to command the Custodes. Unless i am very much mistaken, only the Emperor can, especially in such numbers.

 

WLK

 

Except that the Emperor wanted Russ alive.

 

I am assuming you meant to type Magnus instead of Russ there.

 

His speech at Nikea was pretty explicit with what the Emperor warned Magnus with... what the Emperor wanted was lost when Magnus performed his daemonic door knocker. After that, all bets were off.

 

WLK

 

IIRC, Horus twisted a bit the orders of the emperor, who wanted Magnus alive, to "Ye, kill everything".

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I think candleshoes put the pro-Lion debate in a much clearer light, and explains why i assumed he had his gun nearby (he already had it to execute said Librarian).

 

I think the real question is not why he did it, or whether or not he should have done it, it appears he did not intend to kill him, but what are the consequences of his actions going to be, both on The Lion and on Zaharial, the other pair of these two.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

IIRC, Horus twisted a bit the orders of the emperor, who wanted Magnus alive, to "Ye, kill everything".

 

that was, until the Collected Visions series, what i believed also.

 

the Collected Visions series is the first time i recall the Custodes being attached to the Wolves during the Battle of Prospero.

 

the addition of the Custodes, who Horus cannot order, signifies to me, that Russ now comes to Prospero with the authority of somebody with the power to order the Custodes (and sisters of silence) to war in such numbers. this can either be the Emperor or Malcaldor, who weilded almost unlimited political power himself.

 

WLK

[MadDoc]

There are other Primarchs who did the same thing and they all sided with Horus.

Since you have yet to read any of the novella's I'll cut you some slack, but thats a load of bull. Feat of Iron has senior Iron Hands (Morlock Captains including Gabriel Santar) walking on eggshells around Ferrus because they're worried he'll lose his temper and kill one of them (the impression is given that it wouldn't be the first time it had happened, Ferrus being prone to rages), the difference being if he had done so it wouldn't have been accidental like the situation with Nemiel it would have been straightout murder.

 

So by your logic/statement above Ferrus sided with Horus now too? The same Ferrus who refused Fulgrim's invitation to join Horus in rebellion, who actually came to blows with Fulgrim over the very suggestion...

 

Blanket comments like your ill-considered remark above only serve to display the shortcomings in your background knowledge, and as we should all know, ignorance is never a defence. :)

 

Feat of Iron clearly counters your assertion (hence why I mention it above), and even if you weren't aware of its contents, making a broadsweeping remark like the one you made above is a never a good idea unless you know that what your claiming is irrefutable fact.

[Vesper]

IIRC, Horus twisted a bit the orders of the emperor, who wanted Magnus alive, to "Ye, kill everything".

 

that was, until the Collected Visions series, what i believed also.

 

the Collected Visions series is the first time i recall the Custodes being attached to the Wolves during the Battle of Prospero.

 

the addition of the Custodes, who Horus cannot order, signifies to me, that Russ now comes to Prospero with the authority of somebody with the power to order the Custodes (and sisters of silence) to war in such numbers. this can either be the Emperor or Malcaldor, who weilded almost unlimited political power himself.

 

WLK

 

This makes sense, I have to admit. Yet, Horus could have falsified the orders, or maybe he had enough autority, as a warmaster, to order to sisters of silence and custodes. Don't know if it's true, but that could explain the presence of those along with a tricked Russ.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

IIRC, Horus twisted a bit the orders of the emperor, who wanted Magnus alive, to "Ye, kill everything".

 

that was, until the Collected Visions series, what i believed also.

 

the Collected Visions series is the first time i recall the Custodes being attached to the Wolves during the Battle of Prospero.

 

the addition of the Custodes, who Horus cannot order, signifies to me, that Russ now comes to Prospero with the authority of somebody with the power to order the Custodes (and sisters of silence) to war in such numbers. this can either be the Emperor or Malcaldor, who weilded almost unlimited political power himself.

 

WLK

 

This makes sense, I have to admit. Yet, Horus could have falsified the orders, or maybe he had enough autority, as a warmaster, to order to sisters of silence and custodes. Don't know if it's true, but that could explain the presence of those along with a tricked Russ.

 

If it was just the sisters of silence, i MIGHT be able to buy them being ordered by Horus. But the addition of the Custodes, especially Valdor, seals the deal for me. Considering that Horus wouldnt touch the Imperial Fists because of their role on Terra, i have do not believe he could order so many of the Emperor's elite bodyguards away from Terra on a mission such as this.

 

the Emperor made it clear what would happen for defying the Nikea Edict. the Chaplains were created to enforce this. One Chaplain even defies his primarch to enforce it. I have no doubt that when the daemon door knocker came to Terra, well,i'll let the Bad Boys say it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUH3JQjcweM

 

WLK

[Vesper]

Ok so you think the emperor's orders where to kill Magnus ?

So many conflicts due to retconing of the lore.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Ok so you think the emperor's orders where to kill Magnus ?

So many conflicts due to retconing of the lore.

 

I think that the daemon spell changed the Emperor's view of Magnus. Magnus, when he was found by the Emperor, was warned of the dangers of the Warp and the powers that existed in it. Magnus swore to stop his exploration of the Warp

 

move along a few years and wars later, the Council of Nikea. the Emperor has to revisit the Magnus sorcery situation, and gives him a 2nd chance with the edict. This time he gives Magnus a clear as day warning as to what is going to happen if he is ignored a 2nd time.

 

Magnus uses the daemon spell, very powerful, to breach to Palace's shields and single-handily undue all the work the Emperor retired from the Great Crusade to finish.

 

Now, after being warned twice, the Emperor may believe (since we dont actually have him stating it, i have to follow his previous actions as a guide) that Magnus is beyond saving. He orders Magnus brought to heel by any means required, and arms the Wolves with the weapons Russ will need to defeat Magnus (the Sisters of Silence) and the proof that this is his will (the Custodes)

 

remember, for all his gifts, the Emperor is still a father. With his battle against Horus, he held back and tried to save his son after the civil war he started, the son he personally murdered with his bare hands, and it took Horus's causal utter destruction of a Custodes to show the Emperor what he needed to do. And half dead, the Emperor flattened Horus within minutes.

 

Like Horus, Magnus was pleaded with to change his ways. he then arrogantly believed he knew better, and when the Emperor saw that he could not be saved, i believe he ordered his destruction. If he wasnt holding back the daemons below the Palace's webgate i think he would have done it himself.

 

WLK

[Vesper]

It is a bit simplist and tend to forget why Magnus used the daemon spell. He didn't use it to show the emperor "See ? I broke your toys, you nerd. You don't order me."

I'll quote the wikipedia introduction of a french law thingy that could explain why Magnus did it (because I don't know any equivalent in the american law, so, hey :

Force majeure (/ˌfɔrs/FORS, /ˌfɔərs mɑːˈʒɜr/mah-ZHUR, or /məˈʒɜr/mə-ZHUR; French pronunciation: [fɔʁs maʒœʁ]) or vis major (Latin) "superior force", also known as cas fortuit (French) or casus fortuitus (Latin) "chance occurrence, unavoidable accident",[1] is a common clause in contracts that essentially frees both parties from liability or obligation when an extraordinary event or circumstance beyond the control of the parties, such as a war, strike, riot, crime, or an event described by the legal term act of God.

 

The urgence and importance of Horus betrayal is the important thing, not what Magnus did.

He did right. And nobody saw he did right. That is the tragic fate of Magnus that makes him such a great character. Tzeentch got him all the way.

 

EDIT : looks like we're getting away from the initial subject, so well, let's keep it for another day, in another thread.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

He did right. And nobody saw he did right. That is the tragic fate of Magnus that makes him such a great character. Tzeentch got him all the way.

 

Did he try any other way first?

 

He dismissed the objections of his Chief Librarian and performed the spell. page 434-435. He dismissed any means that didnt let him flaunt his "mastery" of the warp, and his power of the beings of the warp. He played with fire, and got burned.

 

nothing tragic with being stupid and arrogant.

 

EDIT: that said, we're going off course and i've been down this road before. i think we should just agree to disagree here, and continue over PM or a new thread if you feel like it.

 

WLK

[Arkangilos]

IIRC, Horus twisted a bit the orders of the emperor, who wanted Magnus alive, to "Ye, kill everything".

 

that was, until the Collected Visions series, what i believed also.

 

the Collected Visions series is the first time i recall the Custodes being attached to the Wolves during the Battle of Prospero.

 

the addition of the Custodes, who Horus cannot order, signifies to me, that Russ now comes to Prospero with the authority of somebody with the power to order the Custodes (and sisters of silence) to war in such numbers. this can either be the Emperor or Malcaldor, who weilded almost unlimited political power himself.

 

WLK

 

It was the Collected Visions that said the Emperor wanted him alive, and the second Horus Heresy book that said Horus twisted the orders.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Can you tell me the page number in the Collected Visions where he says that?

 

WLK