Hellios Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 How about this chain of events. Emperor orders Russ to bring Magnus to him and sends some of his custodes as his seal. He also sends sisters of silence in case Magnus and his legion refuses. Both of these are under Russ' command. Horus changes the order to kill. The custodes and sisters may or may have not known that the orders were to take Magnus alive. However even if they did why should they not believe that the Emperor has changed his mind with Horus acting as his proxy. Russ doesn't want to kill Magnus and so trys to get him to surrender even with orders to kill him (You can always kill him later.) Magnus doesn't get the message but essentially surrenders anyway (or resigns himself to his fate). His legion finds out the wolves are on them and fight back and we know where it goes from there. I'm also not sure that Magnus is arrogant. Magnus was naive. The Emperor never really explained things to him, the Emperor was not a good father. He said don't do that but we have never seen examples of him really explaining the warp to Magnus or what might happen. Magnus had done pretty well using the warp and why should he think things would change? If you never revised in your entire school life and got A*s everytime would it be arrogant to feel that you would do well at university without revising? If you didn't know that headteacher of your old school had been changing your scores for you. Magnus didn't know what was going on and while people said one thing his experience told him something else. The Emperor was the lead cause in all of Magnus' misfortune. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I'm also not sure that Magnus is arrogant. Magnus was naive. The Emperor never really explained things to him, the Emperor was not a good father. He said don't do that but we have never seen examples of him really explaining the warp to Magnus or what might happen. Magnus had done pretty well using the warp and why should he think things would change? If you never revised in your entire school life and got A*s everytime would it be arrogant to feel that you would do well at university without revising? If you didn't know that headteacher of your old school had been changing your scores for you. Magnus didn't know what was going on and while people said one thing his experience told him something else. The Emperor was the lead cause in all of Magnus' misfortune. Except both Collected Visions and A Thousand Sons says the Emperor told Magnus the secrets of the Warp, hoping this warning would curb his studies. He showed him the dangers of the warp, and the powers within, and made him swear to halt his practices. He took the time to explain this all to Magnus, who then :) on his oath. Magnus did not do well with the Warp though, he merely traded a quick extinction of his legion for a long, drawn out one. Thats why Ahriman was so lost when the flesh changed happened on Shrike. Magnus had promised this would never happen again. Except for the fact it did. Magnus was playing out of his depths again. Magnus's arrogance and superiority complex was the cause of his misfortune, not the Emperor. how many times in A Thousand Sons did he say he conquroed the Warp? How many times did he say that he was more powerful than the Emperor? How many times did he dismiss the Wolves method of warpcraft for being limited and blind? WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Except both Collected Visions and A Thousand Sons says the Emperor told Magnus the secrets of the Warp, hoping this warning would curb his studies. He showed him the dangers of the warp, and the powers within, and made him swear to halt his practices. He took the time to explain this all to Magnus, who then :) on his oath. Magnus did not do well with the Warp though, he merely traded a quick extinction of his legion for a long, drawn out one. Thats why Ahriman was so lost when the flesh changed happened on Shrike. Magnus had promised this would never happen again. Except for the fact it did. Magnus was playing out of his depths again. Magnus's arrogance and superiority complex was the cause of his misfortune, not the Emperor. how many times in A Thousand Sons did he say he conquroed the Warp? How many times did he say that he was more powerful than the Emperor? How many times did he dismiss the Wolves method of warpcraft for being limited and blind? WLK Agree 100% with you WLK. His arrogance was his downfall. Thinking he was master over something that, I think, showed Magnus what it wanted him to see and not showing him everything. It didn't help that he lied to his Legion and the Big E. I still lame blame at the Big E AND Magnus. Magnus for my view and WLK BUT the Big E for failing to properly warn the Primarch's about the warp but then again, if he did, then what's to stop them finding out more about the warp. It's strange how they all knew about the warp and it's influence yet they never thought it as much of a threat to humanity. Again, why the Big E never gave them more teaching on the warp etc. Maybe it was to stop them finding about this "pact" the E made with the Chaos gods to "make" the Primarch's. (I feel it's another lie or half lie from the gods). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 from what i remember, i thought the Emperor showed Magnus what he knew of the warp, in a attempt to "scare straight" Magnus or some such. the rest of the primarchs were shafted though. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I don't remember the page number, but I remember this quote from it, "Magnus was supposed to sit on this throne while I repaired the webway, but Horus took care of that." (It is not word for word, but it is pretty close). It is the part where the Emperor is talking to Malcador, Sanguinius, and Dorn right before they leave for Horus's ship. Because Horus made Russ attack Magnus, Magnus was not brought before the Emperor to sit on the throne (as the Emperor wanted. He wouldn't need to have sat on the throne had Magnus not used the spell). Also, the second Horus Heresy book is newer than the Collective Visions, and I do remember that Horus had changed the orders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I don't remember the page number, but I remember this quote from it, "Magnus was supposed to sit on this throne while I repaired the webway, but Horus took care of that." (It is not word for word, but it is pretty close). It is the part where the Emperor is talking to Malcador, Sanguinius, and Dorn right before they leave for Horus's ship. Because Horus made Russ attack Magnus, Magnus was not brought before the Emperor to sit on the throne (as the Emperor wanted. He wouldn't need to have sat on the throne had Magnus not used the spell). Also, the second Horus Heresy book is newer than the Collective Visions, and I do remember that Horus had changed the orders. alright, now that i have a section to look for, i'll hunt through my copy whenever i get it back (i loan out more books than a freakin library it seems) WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Regarding what I said about comparisons with traitor Primarchs and execution, I wasn't meaning to infer Johnson's loyalty was in question etc, rather I was citing the comparison as an example of instability. Dorn showed it when Garro confronted him with the truth of the Heresy, whilst Ferrus Manus lost his rationality some what too and was a bit of a raging hardman. In this case, the Lion's instability is compounded by the situation he's in; alone away from Terra with just his Legion and he's appeared to go against the Emperor with an order of his (which I actually agree with), plus his natural mistrust. We also know there is a mysterious prescence operating behind Johnson, which further fuels the fire of instability. Like I said, I'm digging flawed personalities in the Primarchs, though I'd also like to point out that Johnson is actually less flawed than overwhelmed right now. He's hurting bad, he's operating in an extreme situation. He's making some mistakes due to human emotion and he knows it and hates that part of himself. It's really making me like Johnson, as I can relate to stress of a situation taking it's toll on your self control and the odd slip occuring which you instantly regret but have to stand by. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 My point is that the Emperor did not do a good job of showing Magnus the dangers of anything. The Emperor should have kept Magnus and instructed him properly. Showing Magnus a little bit is just going to make him dig deeper. What the Emperor did was like showing a 6 year old how to operate a firework and then explaining why it is dangerous and asking them to promise not to touch them but leave them with the fireworks anyway. I think too many people overestimate the emperor. While he has been shown to be a powerful psychic it seems he isn't the most skilled in all aspects. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I don't normally prescribe to the idea the Emperor's parenting skills were the cause of the turning traitor of some of his Primarchs, but you do have a point. Magnus was a particular risk who needed closer monitoring/instruction than the others. If anything, it's amazing he didn't turn earlier considering his exposure to risk over the others. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 My point is that the Emperor did not do a good job of showing Magnus the dangers of anything. The Emperor should have kept Magnus and instructed him properly. Showing Magnus a little bit is just going to make him dig deeper. What the Emperor did was like showing a 6 year old how to operate a firework and then explaining why it is dangerous and asking them to promise not to touch them but leave them with the fireworks anyway. I think too many people overestimate the emperor. While he has been shown to be a powerful psychic it seems he isn't the most skilled in all aspects. Actually he did. The Emperor personally tutored Magnus according to the IA, Collected Visions, and A Thousand Sons. Psychic journeys into the warp where the Emperor informed Magnus as to the nature of the warp. Years spent in study on Terra. I do believe Magnus even traveled in person with the Big E for a while, coming with him to pick up Lorgar. The Emeperor also decreed, with ultimatum, that all Legions, particularly Magnus and the Thousand Sons were to stop mucking about with that stuff. If after all that Magnus, self proclaimed magus of the mystic arts, bumbled himself into being Chaos' wooch, that is his own bloody fault. Te Emperor should have no need to treat full grown super beings, many of whom rose to positions of power and responsibility on their worlds, as if they are 12 year olds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 And yet Magnus still didn't know about the chaos gods or that the little "tutilaries" his sons had with them were actually something far more sinister. So no the Emp still didn't do a great job explaining what was really out there in the dark. That's not to say Magnus is without blame either. He is naive but he is also arrogant with his powers. What he did on Terra was inexcusable, but he did it because he thought it had to be done. Turned out he was right too and Horus did turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 And yet Magnus still didn't know about the chaos gods or that the little "tutilaries" his sons had with them were actually something far more sinister. So no the Emp still didn't do a great job explaining what was really out there in the dark. That's not to say Magnus is without blame either. He is naive but he is also arrogant with his powers. What he did on Terra was inexcusable, but he did it because he thought it had to be done. Turned out he was right too and Horus did turn. Magnus did know about the chaos gods, in fact, he WARNED HORUS not to listen to them. However, at that time, they weren't considered Gods, they were considered powerful aliens from another Universe. And thats exactly what they are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 He didn't know they were gods. I won't get into a debate with you about this, but they are deities. Most demand worship and they gain power from it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Righty oh, I think we need to bring this topic back to it's intended purpose and keep it on Lion El Johnson. Admins are watching, always watching. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Is collected visions worth buying, or is it outdated now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3089810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Nemiel Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Is collected visions worth buying, or is it outdated now? Its more of an Art book, not that much text IIRC... Back on Topic: Lions mistrust and paranoia come clearly from his inability to judge other humans...and events occur i a way where he simply cant trust anyone! Like others already stated its close to autism... It starts with Horus betrayal, but it got more and more personal for the Lion...as the primarch were basically brothers,even if they werent raised together, this "autism" should be know to other primarchs! Im not sure if it was Perturabos or Horus idea to get those superweapons from Lion in the way they did....but the more i think of it, it must been Horus....the whole situation on Diamat stinks of his plans... I mean, if those weapons are that important to him, why just send such a small force?...So that he trusts Perturabo and his "reinforcements", that musta been the plan! That the Lion just nukes the starport, kinda blows Horus plan there but the result stays the same as planned initially! So the only ones who he can trust are himself, Big E and his "little brothers"...and we know how this turned out, the Emperor isnt around for guidance most of the times so my personal guess is at the end Lion didnt trust himself anymore... All this stories with the Primarchs and the Big E., reminds me more and more of just a bunch of kindergarden kids! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3090198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solly Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Didn't Lion waited and hesitated to act during Heresy? As in waiting to see who would be victorious and to whom his aliegence be.When he heard of Horus defeat, Lion quickly went into Loyalist side and based his inactivity/neutrality in conflict with 'dealing with traitors in my own ranks', but if Horus had won, I easelly see same scanario but with different elements. Lion joining Horus and saying 'I was busy fighting loyalists in my legion'. Lion was coward who stayed neutral to the complete end, ready to turn traitor if Horus had gained some advantage. Worst Primarch IMO, other Primarchs chose what side they are at start of heresy, while Lion was full of doubts. He was so paranoid because he was traitor all along. Betrayed Emperor, and later Horus after he started to lose whole war. Evening brothers, Im going to have to contridict you there blood brother. the lion was ALWAYS loyal, he just didnt trust anyone (even amoungst the loylists). Cant really blame him considering he bought himself up on a deathworld, was almost killed by the first humans he encountered and saw his own brothers turn upon and try and kill their own farther (and if you cant trust your own family who can you trust?). He thought he couldnt trust anyone after that. i admit he became very paranoid towards the end of the heresey and this wouldnt have helped his trust issues either. He even saw the primarch of the ultramarines as a potential traitor because he thought he was planning to try and take over from the Emperor. This implies that he was completley loyal and everyhting he did was to help the loylists win. How did he betray the Emperor and/or horus exactly? Im confused by this statement... :o Must also point out that im not being aggresive, im just curious about the statement quoted... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3092669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 How did he betray the Emperor and/or horus exactly? Im confused by this statement... :o I believe theres a one word answer for where that statement comes from... Imagination... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3092682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted June 23, 2012 Share Posted June 23, 2012 How did he betray the Emperor and/or horus exactly? Im confused by this statement... :P I believe theres a one word answer for where that statement comes from... Imagination... Yes, most definetly imagination and Astelans imagination as well. As he is the character that made up this idea in the first place...and who is a) a traitor, ;) hates the Lion and c) was on Caliban with no outside communication and therefore knew nothing that was happening and made up his own conclusions based on that... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3093495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Marshal Ragnrok Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 an analysis of any primarch always reminds me that the primarchs were meant to lead together, not with one at the head. thats why each seems to have a special aspect that hey excel in. the emp seemed to have forgotten that they were best together. if the primarchs had been effectively use together they would have been unstoppable and like less divided. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3346410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 an analysis of any primarch always reminds me that the primarchs were meant to lead together, not with one at the head. thats why each seems to have a special aspect that hey excel in. the emp seemed to have forgotten that they were best together. if the primarchs had been effectively use together they would have been unstoppable and like less divided. But the primarchs were used together, especially in the operations of great scale. In Ullanor, half of the primarchs were present together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3346825 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I don't think the Primarchs being scattered was part of the plan. Their lives away from the Emperor were too important in building the flaws that made some of them certifiable. The Lion, Angron, Kurze, and Perturabo all could've been so much more if they had been guided by the emperor from birth. Fulgrim was so prideful because he grew up as a savior, Mortarion was so distant because of being raised by the warlord that it burned out his humanitarian streak. Magnus landed on a world where it was ok to play with the warp. Lorgar was raised to worship a tamer version of Chaos. Too many factors ruined the Primarchs brotherhood from day one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3346860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 I don't think the Primarchs being scattered was part of the plan. Their lives away from the Emperor were too important in building the flaws that made some of them certifiable. The Lion, Angron, Kurze, and Perturabo all could've been so much more if they had been guided by the emperor from birth. Fulgrim was so prideful because he grew up as a savior, Mortarion was so distant because of being raised by the warlord that it burned out his humanitarian streak. Magnus landed on a world where it was ok to play with the warp. Lorgar was raised to worship a tamer version of Chaos. Too many factors ruined the Primarchs brotherhood from day one. The Lion may not have been such a mighty warrior and general if he hadn't literally been tossed to the wolves though. A less despairingly inept socializer perhaps, but his unique traits were due to his youthful ordeals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3346868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Or his useful traits were simply because he was one of 20 of the smartest beings ever created, and being a general had nothing to do with what he could have been if he hadn't been thrown to the wolves. If anything only being good at being a general is the same thing that makes Angron so shallow when it comes to war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3346904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 If anything only being good at being a general is the same thing that makes Angron so shallow when it comes to war.See, now you went and changed too many variables. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253582-lion-el-jonson-second-finest-general/page/8/#findComment-3346908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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