Lion El Jonson , Second finest general

[Onisuzume]

 

 

Is collected visions worth buying, or is it outdated now?

Its more of an Art book, not that much text IIRC...

 

Back on Topic: Lions mistrust and paranoia come clearly from his inability to judge other humans...and events occur i a way where he simply cant trust anyone! Like others already stated its close to autism...

 

 

Pretty sure the same would happen to most humans if they didn't have any contact with humans until the age of... oh, say 12-18. At which point it becomes really hard to learn social skills (or language for that matter).

Im not sure if it was Perturabos or Horus idea to get those superweapons from Lion in the way they did....but the more i think of it, it must been Horus....the whole situation on Diamat stinks of his plans...

Granted, but would Guilliman have even thought of trying to keep those weapons out of Horus' claws, assuming that Guilliman had the knowledge an ability to?

 

As for who's the best general, I think it would indeed go to the Lion.

War therefore is an act of violence to compel our opponent to fulfill our will.

The Lion, being able to percieve what the opposing side is attempting to do would thus be capable of making sure that he can never be compelled to fulfill his opponent's will.

I mean, sure, being able to identify the key units and disabling them is awesome and such, just not as awesome.

And being able to do all the logistics is also nice... unless you could save a lot of work there.

Im going to have to contridict you there blood brother. the lion was ALWAYS loyal, he just didnt trust anyone (even amoungst the loylists). Cant really blame him considering he bought himself up on a deathworld, was almost killed by the first humans he encountered and saw his own brothers turn upon and try and kill their own farther (and if you cant trust your own family who can you trust?). He thought he couldnt trust anyone after that.

He could trust people before that?

It took a decade before he even knew that humans existed.

And the first things those humans do is try to kill him.

and c) was on Caliban with no outside communication and therefore knew nothing that was happening and made up his own conclusions based on that...

Which if they had, they'd know that he was alongside the Wolf rushing towards Terra when it finally came under siege. Think I remember reading somewhere that Horus lowering the shields of his flagship was a gambit with the hope of defeating the Emperor before the Lion and the Wolf showed up, which were only days away at most, hours at the closest.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

yea see the primarchs deaths and falls etc could have been prevented if the emp had been a proper father.  the primarchs never had a real brotherhood.  which was so important to create after they had separated.  that was the emps first failure.

[Peter the Hermit]

Jonson found him under the Monument to the Victory at Durath. He too had
taken the Emperor's loss most grievously. He too was maddened with pain and
heartbreak and despair. In that darkest hour, bitter words were spoken. Jonson
accused Russ of losing Earth. If they had not paused at Kalida Secundus they
might have arrived in time. Jonson raged, Russ stared back mutely, then told
the Dark Angels Primarch to go away. He had no thirst for battle. He lay down
to sleep under the fallen statue to meaningless victory.

 

As he slept, he dreamed. As he dreamed the Emperor came to him. Russ was
filled with wonder. The Emperor spoke, telling him that now was the time of
testing. Now it was up to him and his true brothers to hold the Imperium
together lest all that they had accomplished vanish. He told him that the
matter between him and Jonson must be settled now and forever. When Russ woke
Jonson stood over him, armoured and armed for a duel. Russ rose to his feet. He
saw the folly of what was about to happen. The realm of Mankind was going to
fall into anarchy, chaos and darkness, and those who could prevent it were
fighting among themselves. He looked at Jonson and shook his head. Filled with rage
Jonson insisted he fight. Russ simply exposed his chest, offering his heart to
Jonson's blade. Jonson struck, but at the last second perceived his madness. As
the blade pierced Russ's primary heart, Jonson turned his stroke aside,
deflecting the blade from bone, and missing the second heart. The duel was
settled. Honour was satisfied at last.

 

Questions (no offense)

- Was Lion such a duchebag, that he is willing to stab a guy who offers his heart without any resistance ? What damn honor?
- Are the SW and DA BFFL according to this ?

 

Also there is that quote from which tells that Dorn was no2.(horus rising)
 

Rogal Dorn possessed
perhaps the finest military mind of all the primarchs. It was as ordered and
disciplined as Roboute Guilliman’s, as courageous as the Lion’s, yet still
supple enough to allow for the flash of inspiration, the flash of battle zeal
that had won the likes of Leman Russ and the Khan so many victory wreaths.
Dorn’s record in the crusade was second only to Horus’s, but he was resolute
where Horus was flamboyant, reserved where Horus was charismatic, and that was
why Horus had been the obvious choice for Warmaster.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Lion did have honor, but he was also shown to be easily angered and he did have a temper. thus he was in some ways similar to Russ. the rivalry between them and their legions developed from a foolish argument into one of mutual respect.

well i just wanted to point out the bit about Dorn is coming form a Black Templar anyway, certainly some of the best strategists among the primarchs were Jonson, Dorn, Pertu, The Angel and Roboute.

[Legionator]

Lion was the primarch of the first legion, had a great strategic mind and organisational skill. I think he could be intended to become the warmaster, primus inter pares. Caliban was his misfortune, he grew alone, became a stranger among men and was found relatively lately by the Emperor.

[Cerbero666]

Lion did have honor, but he was also shown to be easily angered and he did have a temper. thus he was in some ways similar to Russ. the rivalry between them and their legions developed from a foolish argument into one of mutual respect.

well i just wanted to point out the bit about Dorn is coming form a Black Templar anyway, certainly some of the best strategists among the primarchs were Jonson, Dorn, Pertu, The Angel and Roboute.

It isn't coming from a Black Templar, I believe you mean Sigismund of course. But that part it's a description of Dorn by Dan Abnett writing, not Sigismund speaking to Loken and Torgaddon.

[b1soul]

No he just ruthless slaughtered any he didn't think would side with him against the Emperor... That has to be the most ridiculous comparison I've seen yet.

...but Nemiel wasn't about to reject the Lion and side with the Traitors. He simply reminded the Lion of the Emperor's edict.

The Lion killing Nemiel is more like Horus killing a traitor marine (say Little Horus) who questions an order

It's not really analogous to Horus killing loyalists who have rejected him as a traitor

[[TA]Typher]

 

 

No he just ruthless slaughtered any he didn't think would side with him against the Emperor... [url=http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif]http://image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/url] That has to be the most ridiculous comparison I've seen yet.

 

...but Nemiel wasn't about to reject the Lion and side with the Traitors. He simply reminded the Lion of the Emperor's edict.

 

The Lion killing Nemiel is more like Horus killing a traitor marine (say Little Horus) who questions an order

It's not really analogous to Horus killing loyalists who have rejected him as a traitor

If I recall correctly He didn't just remind the Lion of the edict, he told him that he wouldn't allow it.

 

Which is funny, because a lot of the Legion's had already ignored the edict. Even the Wolves (read Thousand Sons).

 

The Lion is a dark Character, like Curze. They both struggle with this dark abyss of isolation and paranoia. But unlike Curze the Lion has learned to master it better. Sure, he still fails once in a while and dips into darkness, but he didn't surrender to it like Curze. But, even with that the killing of Nemiel seemed disjointed and out of place. It probably would have flowed better (and been more believable) if he either would have expelled him from his inner circle or even sent to back to Caliban.

[Tenebris]

I believe that the Lion is a typical INTJ person. He is not a charismatic being, not a oh so perfect warrior, he simply is an effective being. He does not waste men, ships and bullets, his tactics and strategies are all bound to the degree of superb efficiency and even his fighting style speaks volumes of his formality and economy both of mind and movement. He is a person who is more comfortable in an established hierarchy, a hierarchy that is based upon rank and status rather than personal achievements and charisma but be aware that rank and status are not necessary bound. When he killed the chaplain is simply because it was the only effective way to quell dissent among his command and to prove his point. It was not an action brought forth by hatred or passion but an action guided by economy and reason, a message clear to all. 

 

If you read the description of an INTJ person you will see that every single phrase screams of Lion. He is a cold, detached being, a person who is cursed with his ability to see the larger picture and has the means to achieve it. Not for the Lion the comfort of emotions but as we can see when his emotions are roused he becomes dangerous (The Rock) and paranoid (again an INTJ trait), as well as his steadfast loyalty is not a loyalty bought by rank or status but a loyalty not to the Emperor but to his vision. This vision has nothing to do with Nikea, the Heresy and all, but it is a separate concept that the Lion has at heart and will not allow to fall. 

 

To categorize a primarch is always a daunting prospect but the Lion is not so hard to discern. He is a being guided by cold reason and logic, a logic that requires a formal structure to operate, a clear vision and a methodical approach to war. He is not a person bound to inspire troops or give speeches, he is a person who leads by example and demands utter control over his subordinates, a control that is both efficient and skillful. But there is also another benefit if you understand the Lion as a rational being. His tactics will well integrate deceit, subterfuge and suicide if the battle would be won in a more efficient way, he is not alien to such underhanded tricks, especially if he is quite capable with his primarch mind to integrate this all in his farsighted strategy. 

 

So on the argument of the topic. The Lion is not a great leader of men, nor an inspiring figure as many of his brothers, but he is indeed the best general in the pure military term. His strategies are the results of his cold logic and unemotional persona, he is efficiency given form and his legion understands this well . When he is committed to battle the Lion does not fight as a being guided by emotions but he is detached even when he strangles his brothers to death. Only when he was forced to fight his traitor kin, the Fallen Angels, his ire was made manifest and it was an ire that I believe no primarch was ever capable of, especially when we speak of a ruthlessly efficient commander of the Astartes. That is why the Rock was the only understandable result, the only reasonable action to take, for I would have done the same without a second taught. 

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

Lion did have honor, but he was also shown to be easily angered and he did have a temper. thus he was in some ways similar to Russ. the rivalry between them and their legions developed from a foolish argument into one of mutual respect.

well i just wanted to point out the bit about Dorn is coming form a Black Templar anyway, certainly some of the best strategists among the primarchs were Jonson, Dorn, Pertu, The Angel and Roboute.

It isn't coming from a Black Templar, I believe you mean Sigismund of course. But that part it's a description of Dorn by Dan Abnett writing, not Sigismund speaking to Loken and Torgaddon.

thats not what i meant. the poster's chapter is Black Templars

[yhta]

I believe that the Lion is a typical INTJ person. He is not a charismatic being, not a oh so perfect warrior, he simply is an effective being. He does not waste men, ships and bullets, his tactics and strategies are all bound to the degree of superb efficiency and even his fighting style speaks volumes of his formality and economy both of mind and movement. He is a person who is more comfortable in an established hierarchy, a hierarchy that is based upon rank and status rather than personal achievements and charisma but be aware that rank and status are not necessary bound. When he killed the chaplain is simply because it was the only effective way to quell dissent among his command and to prove his point. It was not an action brought forth by hatred or passion but an action guided by economy and reason, a message clear to all. 

 

If you read the description of an INTJ person you will see that every single phrase screams of Lion. He is a cold, detached being, a person who is cursed with his ability to see the larger picture and has the means to achieve it. Not for the Lion the comfort of emotions but as we can see when his emotions are roused he becomes dangerous (The Rock) and paranoid (again an INTJ trait), as well as his steadfast loyalty is not a loyalty bought by rank or status but a loyalty not to the Emperor but to his vision. This vision has nothing to do with Nikea, the Heresy and all, but it is a separate concept that the Lion has at heart and will not allow to fall. 

 

To categorize a primarch is always a daunting prospect but the Lion is not so hard to discern. He is a being guided by cold reason and logic, a logic that requires a formal structure to operate, a clear vision and a methodical approach to war. He is not a person bound to inspire troops or give speeches, he is a person who leads by example and demands utter control over his subordinates, a control that is both efficient and skillful. But there is also another benefit if you understand the Lion as a rational being. His tactics will well integrate deceit, subterfuge and suicide if the battle would be won in a more efficient way, he is not alien to such underhanded tricks, especially if he is quite capable with his primarch mind to integrate this all in his farsighted strategy. 

 

So on the argument of the topic. The Lion is not a great leader of men, nor an inspiring figure as many of his brothers, but he is indeed the best general in the pure military term. His strategies are the results of his cold logic and unemotional persona, he is efficiency given form and his legion understands this well . When he is committed to battle the Lion does not fight as a being guided by emotions but he is detached even when he strangles his brothers to death. Only when he was forced to fight his traitor kin, the Fallen Angels, his ire was made manifest and it was an ire that I believe no primarch was ever capable of, especially when we speak of a ruthlessly efficient commander of the Astartes. That is why the Rock was the only understandable result, the only reasonable action to take, for I would have done the same without a second taught. 

 

Except that jhonson killing namiel show the the exact oposite

 

Its something, lion is loyal to the emperor alone, not the imperiun like guillman, not the vision like dorn, just the emperor like a leader, in d&d terns he will be lawfull neutral, he really dosent understand the others and have a problem when they undernaim his authority, the death of nemei show what happen when you said no to a primarch

 

Also this show the fact that in the end, the all "loyalty is own reward" can`t really be follow every single time, lion is show to break is loyalty to the emperor to fight his enemys but nemei stand for the emperor even against his primarch, if klling namiel whas to show a message then it will be a bad one: that in the end is loyalty to him and not the emperor, this show that lion dosen really know who to treat other person who dosen`t follow his order, he is a knight after all and knight follow they lord, that is why horus is the war master: because he can make feel the other are part of something and not just pawns for him, and see how he make a gladiator(angron) the one who almost ruin his plan before this star(magnus)  a perfecionist(fulgrim) the grumpy bear with guns(perturabo) chaos batman(kurze) and the wonder twins(alfarius/omegon) work like one to fight his father and his former brothers that speak a lot

 

WLK: the only things i going to say is that the fact that the custodes and sister of silence are with russ dosent really means that he is order is kill him, the empy give the gift of doubt and make russ going after him to see is magnus is beyond saving but he is still a primarch and a psyker(a very powerfull one) and horus is the second to the emperor, it would be easy for him to say the emperor chances is mind, and there is the fact that he thinks magnus is using kawsper to spy him went he is using his legion to spy his brothers in case they use psyker power(which of course he use)

 

For me russ and lion have something in common:they have a strong cases of doble standar about everyone who is not then

[Mantras]

tl,dr but I wanted to comment on the whole "The Lion doesn't trust anyone" thing. He does put all his trust in the Watchers of the Dark, and Corswain. Having a small trust circle /= trusting no one.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to point out Fear to Tread talks of horror and shock regarding the mere thought of a Primarch killing one of his Legionaires. It's obviously incredibly taboo. The Primarchs we know who engage in such practice are incredibly unstable and likely to turn traitor even without the Heresy.

 

Not saying Johnson would of course, but it speaks volumes of his stability when Nemiel is "disciplined"...

[Aegnor]

I hated the Lion killing Nemiel.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

I didnt see any sitting on the fence in the Primarchs. He was unable to catch Night Haunter with enough of his legion to have a significant victory. Thats not th same as not doing anything.

 

My thought is the Lion favoured decissive victories that crushed a foe and Kurze was master of the gorilla war. So a war between them would last an age!

 

Also the Lion was aware of rogue elements of legions that were considered loyal and loyalists from traitor legions and was unprepared to comit to fights where he might back a traitor against a loyalist accidentally (after all Garro had previously been Deathguard)

[Brother Captain Lucian]

I hated the Lion killing Nemiel.

I ignored that part of the story. Its so stupid no matter how you look at it. And a bloody Waste of a nice character.

[Azoriel]

I wasn't terribly impressed by Nemiel, myself (or the books he appeared in); throughout all of Descent of Angels, he was presented as second to Zahariel at pretty much everything.  (He was also part of that conspiracy to kill the Emperor while he was on Caliban, which I don't think his participation in was ever exposed.)

Granted, I wasn't keen on how Nemiel was dispatched either.  (All the older fluff from "The Lion and the Wolf" presented Jonson as being slow to anger, but able to hold a grudge for an extremely long time).  The way I saw it, this was Gav Thrope trying to reconcile the two different HH narratives we had for the Dark Angels: Zahariel/Nemiel vs. Corswain.  To ensure that future authors stick to only one path, Mr. Thrope decided to kill off one of those storylines - literally.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Hey, i was just reading through fallen angels again and i realised the following line on page 41 of fallen angels...

"It made him (lion) one of the finest generals, second to only horus himself"

 

I always thought The Lion was supposed to be the greatest general...so if strategic aquity wasnt what he got from his father, what was his "emperor part gift"

 

Ex. magnus got the psychic potential

I think, according to various bits of fluff, at least half the primarchs were the finest general.  

 

It's all garbage, and trying to quantify or qualify who the "best" general is, is kinda pointless.  I think his name is Lemboute El'Horus.

[Aegnor]

Lio-mboute Dorn-epcal, aka Lemanguinius. Can't leave Rogal, Russ or the Angel out! :)

[High MarshalGR]

My personal opinion is that Lion possessed a great military mind, I wouldn't put him 2nd though because while his cold and calculating mind was effective, he lacked the charisma and coordination skills Horus had, the ability to estimate the most efficient and effective way to victory RG had, the leadership abilities Leman Russ demonstrated.

 

Now, as far as the Leman Russ vs Lion goes, I think they are different in many aspects.

First of all, Leman Russ is what I call a leader. He leads by example. This results in a legion builded on trust and emotions of love and binding people together, something Lion didn't prefer. He lead by strict hierarchy, complete obedience and orders I think. He is what I would call a boss.

Second, Leman Russ demonstrated a pretty honorable-straightforward type of man. Lion goes for the win.

Third, Lion was highly intellectual, cold and distant while Russ was a battle brother in the true sense of the word. He was fiery, hot-headed and close to his legion. They merely tools of war for him.

 

Overally, I think Lion was the better general while Leman was the greater leader.

[Legionator]

That guy ambushed the **** out of Night Lords, masters of ambushes and asymmetric warfare.

 

I think Lion is the most underrated primarch. If he hadn't been asocial... Even his lack of communication skills adds him a different kind of nobility.

[ForlorneRaven]

The lions inability to trust/understand other people be the human or transhuman surely stops him being considered anywhere near a great general. I mean sure on a logical level drawing up strategies and such he may excel. But getting his men to trust in his decisions and to trust and him, to inspire them, the lions failure to do these things is what dooms his legion to fragmentation and slow death. Just my thoughts of course :)

[Conn Eremon]

And yet his is the Legion that fragments the least, retaining a near Legion status for ten thousand years without the excuses of low numbers or high mutation rates that the other Legions who resisted fragmentation used.

 

The Lion's lack of charisma doesn't make him a bad general or prevent him from being a good one. You don't have to be liked to be trusted. And you don't have to be trusted to be liked. Charisma allows you to engender good cheer and inspire without much need to back it up. Horus or Sanguinius didn't need to be as good warriors and generals as they were in order to inspire and lead their warriors because of their charisma. Look at Lorgar, who was a lesser warrior and general but who had the charisma of a cult leader on his side. The Lion was virtually bereft of charisma, on par with Perturabo and Angron, but he was one of the best at backing it up with real talent. And that went a long way to making up for it. He was on par with Sanguinius or Guilliman, who could be considered leaser generals but with enough charisma to make up for it (though really, Guilliman isn't much different to the Lion, just to a lesser extreme) but less than Horus, whose supreme charisma and upper tier talents kept him at the top.

 

The tl;dr of it all is that the Lion's lack of charisma is readily offset by his actual talents, keeping him at the top with the other supreme leaders and generals of the Primarchs.

[GhostMalone]

The whole debate on the lion being second in line is valid but I think why he felt that way was simple. His legion were the first he felt that he only had loyalty to the emperor and felt he was part of the reason for the big e dying. That's why he strikes Russ he needed to blame someone for his failing.

 

He saw the reality of the situation none of this he turned emo crap. Even a marine can feel stress and pressure so eventually a primarch would. He couldn't trust any of his brothers and as he said in descent of angels to a young zahriel he felt that no one on caliban could understand him.

 

He finds 17 brothers finally others like him and feels some connection with humanity and finds a father someone that appreciates his true worth.

 

Then he gets partly betrayed by Luther his closest companion pre great crusade, he busts his arse off with victories after coming into the GC later on then others, Horus becomes warmaster which he didn't feel was right, he then after lack of contact from everyone hears that the warmaster has turned with 3 of his brothers, goes to prevent weapons falling into his hands, trusts perturabo to seek retribution, finds out that he was betrayed again and this time 4 more brothers have betrayed him and there father. Starts to fight against kurze doesn't know who to trust anymore. Finally sorts some :cuss out meets up with the wolves heading for terra and arrive to find his father dead... Pretty sure he would be stressed.

[Conn Eremon]

I'm not sure you can say he didn't turn into emo crap, considering he, like Sanguinius and Ferrus Manus, didn't get the chance to do so. Luther's betrayal and the Lion's fall is a part of the Heresy, even if at the end. He never had to live with what happened, he was gone too soon. I'm not saying he didn't grieve or buck up. The events were still happening and the Lion was likely still suffering from shock like the others. But he fell before having to own up and live in the new Imperium like the others did. So we can't say he dealt with it better or worse because he doesn't really get the chance to.

 

We also can't say he's been in constant betrayed mode. He had a loooong time in the Great Crusade. He seems to have suspected Luther and others but that was more down to his own paranoia than the truth of the matter, even if they did end up the same. He had mire time than others to become a part of the Imperium and his brothers. Nine other Primarchs were found after him. The Lion was there for at least half the Crusade. It wasn't one thing after another with him. After all, Lorgar was found after him. And he had decades to prepare for his later betrayal, after decades of loyal service. The Lion had even longer.

 

And he struck Russ because he thought Russ was laughing at him when fighting, when in truth Russ was laughing at how ridiculous they both were for fighting each other. And this happened long before the Heresy and the Emperor's interment.