Hybrid Lists

[terminatorAM]

I'm currently getting back into the hobby as a friend of mine has restarted as well with GK. What I'm trying to do is build a hybrid list that doesn't rely on spamming 5 man RAS in razors. I have had less than great luck using small squads of basic troops in the past and don't want to pay for the whole unit only to use the razor's gun. I am by no means a veteran of the game, but have played on and off since 4th ed. and like to play semi-competitive games with friends and the odd tournament at my local store.

 

This is what I think I know of the hybrid lists:

 

- Hybrid lists combine the maneuverability and cc abilities of DoA with the firepower and durability of mech lists

- they are more of a reactive type army than a one-trick shoot or charge list

- vehicles provide cover for jumpers

- speed, in one form or another

 

What I want to do with this thread:

 

- discuss what makes hybrid lists competitive and a better choice over mech or DoA

- find a way to replace the standard 5 man razor squads

- find a good balance of shooty and assaulty

- share some tactics and/or proven lists

- put together a 1000pnt list that will become 2000pnts in the nearish future

 

 

Any advise is helpful (even if it's correcting me) and a general discussion would be awesome as well

[Demoulius]

well brother, we can help you build that list of yours more easily if we know what models you have on hand and what your willing to add to it (if needed);)

 

small point about hybrid lists. they dont need to be doa specificly. ive been using one without it for a while. the jumpers just hop behind the vehicles, my liby gives everything a 5+ cover save and when everything gets close enough to my opponent all hell break lose :lol: i generally support them with a baal and vindi. at higher points i sometimes add a 2nd baal and at other times other units like scouts or whatever (generally when i feel like doing something impulsive :P)

 

together with the assault marines ive got some priests, either in the RB or the jumpers to provide FnP ensuring that generally enough survive to bash some heads in :P

 

wrote a 1000 pts list on the fly. not sure if its what you want though...

 

liby with JP (SoS and UR powers) - 125 pts

priest with JP and PW - 90 pts

5 man AS with MG, PW and RB with TLLC - 180 pts

10 man ASM with packs, 2 MG and PF - 235 pts

Baal predator with HB - 145 pts

vindi with siegeshield - 155 pts

MM/HF speeder - 70 pts

 

1000 pts exactly. was that more or less what you were looking for? :)

[Sviox]

Hybrid list is the kind I'm running. I can see why people run it with a librarian most often but I tend to use something more offensive, like a captain with jump pack and twin lightning claws attached to an assault squad with a priest. Also, I'm always using tactical marines as the foot-slogging part. I never run assault marines without JPs... Unfluffy and inefficient IMO. If I want transported CC goodness, I take an honor guard without JPs instead.

 

Some kind of frame (though I don't have the codex at hand now so I can't give points costs) for an army I run based on:

-Captain with twin lightning claws and JP

-A priest with PW and JP

-At least two tactical squads (at low points, one full strength with fist in rhino and one 5 man in RB with LC and TW plasmaguns)

-At least one Baal predator

-A single assault squad with PF and meltagun, as big as possible (hides behind the tank line and then provides some meatbags for captain and priest)

 

Good ways to expand this frame is to add in things like honor guard with a couple of power weapons in another RB, a librarian/Mephiston, some VV, a single tactical squad (or sometimes a DC) in drop pod etc.

 

Strategy: don't reserve anything (except that single drop pod if you're playing on higher points - you'll get to drop it in turn 1), form a protective line from your tanks (you should have 3+ tanks, enough to hide a big assault squad behind them) near one table edge (where you get most cover). In first turn or two, advance the line so that you park the rhinos about 12" away from opponents squads. The opponent may shoot down the transports, but you'll get to charge with most of the squads anyway and most likely devastate the core of his army... After that, take some nearby objectives with the tacticals (providing some covering fire and assaulting if possible) and keep attacking more squads with the assault marines.

 

At least this works pretty good for me. Simple and quite efficient. Biggest headaches are the enemy lists with lots of long range anti-tank weapons (VV and drop pod helps with these a bit though).

[Israfel]

I am a big fan of hybrid lists and associated game play :) I like to have multiple different units with different capabilities as it grants tactical flexibility on your side and the obligation to deal with divergent threats on the opponents side.

 

The base of my lists would be:

 

- JP Librarian (Mephiston if it's a tournament list)

- 2 x 10 men JP RAS with MGx2 and PF

- 2 x 5 men RAS with MG and LCPG Rback

- JP SP

- 2 x Predators w. AC-LC

 

Feel free to expand on the concept with more jumpers, Rback squads (with TLAC flavor if you prefer), AB's and predators (including baals) depending on the points you play and the models you fancy ^_^

[Morticon]

Welcome TerminatorAM.

 

If you haven't had a chance, try check out the BatReps in my sig. I exclusively run hybrid lists and like to think that I do so quite successfully.

 

 

 

I personally feel that hybrid lists offer a great deal of competitive ability based on the principle that they are able to be very reactive- sometimes more reactive than pure DoA or pure shooty mech.

I like being able to have a set of tools that can handle the majority of situations that are thrown my way.

The same set of tools that support each other and work well in synergy - thats really part of the trick

Of course, the list I use changes all the time, largely for aesthetic rather that efficiency reasons.

 

 

I wouldnt immediately discount any unit from a hybrid list (like you seem to have regarding the Razorback assault squad).

 

 

The biggest trick with a hybrid list I feel is not only finding a balance between shooty and fighty, but also finding a very good cost to effect or cost to utility ratio.

The second you overload one aspect (or unit) in a hybrid list, you really take away from other aspects of the army. EG: At 1750 level a storm raven with a Dreadnought and mounted squad can easily run into 500+ points. Since this is only one "hard point" or armour point on the board, you really take away from your army by making the enemies job much easier. (too many eggs scenario).

 

Also, check out the BA efficiency tactica i wrote -it feeds into Hybrid play quite nicely.

 

 

I find the biggest failure of hybrid lists in competitive play is often the inability to adequately deal with certain deathstar power builds. Hybrid lists require a lot of focus on combined arms approach to battling the enemy and unless you have a deathstar of your own (which falls into the above mentioned trap) you really can struggle against things like hammernator spam, pallies, thunderwolves etc.

 

 

The only other point of advice I can make is if you're working with a hybrid list you really need to try and work concepts of so called redundancy into your list. Now for the layman that means simply spamming something. But, by utilising the SM ability to be a jack of all trades you can increase your ability to fill multiple roles across the majority of your units so you can react and engage with any enemy!

 

Hope that helps.

[terminatorAM]

thanks for the replies guys

 

so far, the list I'm thinking of running is something like this:

 

- Reclusiarch

- Sang Priest w/JP

- Tact Squad 10 w/plasma gun, missile launcher, powerfist,

Rhino

- Assault Squad 10 w/x2 meltaguns, thunder hammer

- Death Company 5 w/ power weapon

Rhino

- Predator w/ autocannon, lascannons

 

I keep playing with the idea of either a typhoon or a plasma HG in exchange for the pred, some gear, and the priest (switched for HG at least)

 

It's hard to be redundant at 1000pnts, but i plan on running multiples of a few units in higher point games

 

 

About the redundancy, is this more for target saturation purposes or just to make sure you have more guys that can do the same job?

[the jeske]

if you want redundancy they you should play razor spam . look at most mort builds aside for the attack bikes he doesnt realy run doubles or triples of units . this means you have to know when and where and against what to send 1 squad to get the job done [this also means razors are force multiplyers and are still very adviced as transport choice] . not a very friendly army to start playing , game play wise of course.

[Morticon]

not a very friendly army to start playing , game play wise of course.

 

^ this! Quite tough to use if you're just starting out.

[Morticon]

About the redundancy, is this more for target saturation purposes or just to make sure you have more guys that can do the same job?

 

Its mainly for the latter. Having any unit in your army that can do any job (generally speaking).

 

Also, as Jeske said, dont mistake multiples for the only way to have redundancy. While it may be the simplest way to do things, its not necessarily the best and I'd bet that it gets a lot dryer for both you and your opponent to play.

 

In my lists every unit that can have a MG gets a MG - this means that any unit can potentially kill something with an AV.

Any unit that can get a special CCW upgrade does, which means I can always use any of my squads to assist in assaults.

 

 

While my attack bikes can't aid that much in assault, when they run in squads of 3 they put out 9 attacks on the charge, and more importantly with 2 MM and 1HB they put out 6 TL Bolter shots, 3 HB shots and 2MM shots at 12" meaning that after that volley, unless the enemy has a PF, they're quite capable of holding their own in combat - especially against dedicated firing units like devs/long fangs.

 

In that list, although I dont think its optimised, I would strongly consider a fist over a PW in the DC. You can find the points by losing the PG.

 

If i were you though, Id probably swing towards a Libby leader rather, and use the points to grab another DC member and then use the last ten points to upgrade from a ML to a Lascan in the tacs.

[Dosjetka]

Morticon: So instead of spamming the same unit over and over, you just upgrade the units you can so that they can deal with any threat coming their way (or assist other units), right?

 

Ludovic

[Morticon]

Morticon: So instead of spamming the same unit over and over, you just upgrade the units you can so that they can deal with any threat coming their way (or assist other units), right?

 

Ludovic

 

That's how I do it, yeah. Again, it's not the only way - and somewhat tougher to get the hang of the playstyle.

But, I find the enemy really struggles with threat assessment and there's always something that can help me out.

[Dosjetka]

That's how I do it, yeah. Again, it's not the only way - and somewhat tougher to get the hang of the playstyle.

But, I find the enemy really struggles with threat assessment and there's always something that can help me out.

But why tougher (to play)? Due to the fact that it's easier on the mind to have just one-role units, instead of having to synergise the whole army and use multiple units to fulfill one task?

 

Cheers,

 

Ludovic

[Morticon]

That's how I do it, yeah. Again, it's not the only way - and somewhat tougher to get the hang of the playstyle.

But, I find the enemy really struggles with threat assessment and there's always something that can help me out.

But why tougher (to play)? Due to the fact that it's easier on the mind to have just one-role units, instead of having to synergise the whole army and use multiple units to fulfill one task?

 

Cheers,

 

Ludovic

 

Exactly that!!

 

The tactics change constantly (and i would argue more frequently) and there are more of them with hybrid play - which is why being reactive is so important.

While I wouldnt suggest shooty razorspam is "easy" to play, I do believe its slightly less tactically dense than hybrid play.

[terminatorAM]

so in order to take full advantage of special weapons and cc upgrades, wouldn't it be easier to take full 10 man squads instead of 5 man razor squads? I see how a razor is a great transport, I just don't like having to pay for a small basic squad to use it. I'd rather have it for my more elite units like HG or DC if possible and have larger squads ride in rhinos for a more rhino-rush type list (these used to be more viable when i played before with C:SM)

[Dosjetka]

so in order to take full advantage of special weapons and cc upgrades, wouldn't it be easier to take full 10 man squads instead of 5 man razor squads? I see how a razor is a great transport, I just don't like having to pay for a small basic squad to use it. I'd rather have it for my more elite units like HG or DC if possible and have larger squads ride in rhinos for a more rhino-rush type list (these used to be more viable when i played before with C:SM)

That would seem (to me) as being the best idea. And the bigger the Squad, the more ablative wounds you have to protect the more "valuable" models in the squads (at the expense of a heavy weapon on a vehicle) :)

 

Morticon: OK, I get it. Cheers :)

 

Ludovic

[Morticon]

so in order to take full advantage of special weapons and cc upgrades, wouldn't it be easier to take full 10 man squads instead of 5 man razor squads? I see how a razor is a great transport, I just don't like having to pay for a small basic squad to use it. I'd rather have it for my more elite units like HG or DC if possible and have larger squads ride in rhinos for a more rhino-rush type list (these used to be more viable when i played before with C:SM)

 

It depends what you're looking for.

For mobile fire support that can fight and shoot and move the razor offers great bang per buck.

 

10 men jumping is okay but 10 RAS in a vehicle is potentially not as good. Why?

 

You get the same discount to the vehicle whether or not you have 5 men, or 10 men. So, in a way you get more of a discount for 5men, than for 10.

 

Also, RAS have great weapon options at 5 men strong, TACs not so much.

 

But again, it depends on the role. Assuming you have a 10 man squads of RAS then your options are a rhino or jump packs.

But that means you have all combat and no shooting for the investment of points there. So, the rest of your army really needs to balance that out a little.

[terminatorAM]

I love the 10 man RAS w/ jump packs, 2 meltas and a fist, it's a great versatile unit that looks awesome on the battlefield (part of why I dont I dont like the 5 man squads). So I plan to run a full squad of these, 2 or 3 at higher point games, w/ priest jumping behind a few tanks for the Jumpy part of the hybrid list. What I'm having some issues with is the Shooty part.

 

I'm thinking a AC/LC predator or 2 and a few typhoon speeders when points allow room, but should I have a shooty squad of some kind too? TACs have a little bit more with a hevy weapon, but can't form a firebase by themselves. Devs are too static to work well in a mobile army IMO, and while sternguard seem pretty killy, they lack the range I'm looking for.

 

What I keep coming back to a x4 plasma HG but since they are so specialized they seem to go against the build of a hybrid list as pointed out by Mort, or possibly a bike squad with meltas, attack bike, and serg w/ cc upgrade. Even though they could get expensive, they look like they'd work well in a higher point game. How do you guys think these units or other shooty guys would work in a hybrid list?

[the jeske]

you should be taking attack bikes in every BA list that isnt DoA and even in DoA they work ok .

[Morticon]

What I keep coming back to a x4 plasma HG but since they are so specialized they seem to go against the build of a hybrid list as pointed out by Mort, or possibly a bike squad with meltas, attack bike, and serg w/ cc upgrade.

 

Dude,

the first rule in a hybrid list should be that anything can go into a hybrid list. Its definitely not "against" what i'm suggesting.

I think they'll work fine in a hybrid list- but as you pointed out they will have a very dedicated role- that of shooting.

 

There was a big debate and a great discussion on what people felt was a good use of the HG, I think it may have been in the list building section. Either way there are very,very strong proponents for the 4xMG and 4xPG HG !

 

My only concern is that you're paying 225 points for guys that can be locked in combat, are usually in the thick of battle to make use of their 12" rapid fire and when theyre locked in combat they dont have a special weapon.

 

I find the 20pnt upgrade for the champ exceptional value for points. Of course, I prefer the MG version too.

 

Point is, dont discredit anything. See how it works. See how it fits into your list.

Personally, for reasons i've listed i dont find it as efficient for me but you may be able to play it otherwise.

 

That aside, what Jeske said!!!!!

 

Attack bikes are amazing.

 

I used a biker squad of 5 + Attack bike before- 245 points for a PF, 2PG and an attack bike with MM.

It was really good and even better when my priest of choice was a priest on a bike with PW. Formed a decent attack unit.

But, as you said they get expensive, and they're also quite dear meaning they lose combat efficiency as soon as they start taking casualties. Its why I eventually went for the attack bikes - could fit 5 of them into a list for the same points.

[Sigismund's Fury]

A hybrid list I ran a while back

 

Libby(sword,fear) w/ JP

2x Sang P. w/ JP

4x, 10x RAS w/ 2x melta, PF

2x Baal preds w/ TLAC

3x Attack bikes w/ MM

3x Preds w/ AC LC

 

Baals would run screening for important units and one RAS would split off and DOA in to back field threaten. The biggest problem was with pladin deathstars and DCA really just didnt have enough "umfu" to handle I6 PW.

[knife&fork]

A hybrid list I ran a while back

 

Libby(sword,fear) w/ JP

2x Sang P. w/ JP

4x, 10x RAS w/ 2x melta, PF

2x Baal preds w/ TLAC

3x Attack bikes w/ MM

3x Preds w/ AC LC

 

Baals would run screening for important units and one RAS would split off and DOA in to back field threaten. The biggest problem was with pladin deathstars and DCA really just didnt have enough "umfu" to handle I6 PW.

 

Running flamestorm baals instead could have helped with that. Plenty of AT in the list anyway.

[Sigismund's Fury]

I played around with flamestorms for a bit, I personally found it to be a "win-more" upgrade. Against DCA they still get their 5++ and paladins just laugh at it. TLAC allow you to float around mid field without over commiting and forcing your opponents melta to come to you if they really want to get it. I liked the list when i ran it. Theres tons of flexiblity in deployment, with outflanking baals and DOA RAS you really have the tools to handdle just about anything.

[knife&fork]

I played around with flamestorms for a bit, I personally found it to be a "win-more" upgrade. Against DCA they still get their 5++ and paladins just laugh at it. TLAC allow you to float around mid field without over commiting and forcing your opponents melta to come to you if they really want to get it. I liked the list when i ran it. Theres tons of flexiblity in deployment, with outflanking baals and DOA RAS you really have the tools to handdle just about anything.

 

You typed paladin, I read purifier :P

[Morticon]

. Against DCA they still get their 5++

 

Do they ?

[Sigismund's Fury]

Yea purifiers are a mixxed bag. MSU style they're quite easy to handle, but 10m sqauds with all the fixxing gives me fits. DCA come with a 5++ standered quite annoying they still die to bolt pistols/flamers. I had a list laying around that was basicly the same thing but dropped a bike for 4 hand flamers on sarges, search lights on the baals/preds, and a random melta bomb. Thinking was if i was going aginst swarm style lists(green tide, scarb farm, nids) they would come in handy roasting DCA was just a bouns. In my meta paladins reign supreme so off went the hand flamers <_< .