*Furyou Miko Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Eh, Warhammer Fantasy is a tactical and strategic wargame. 40k is a vehicle for selling models to kids. Seriously, the different in complexity between the two rulesets is immense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3080330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 AP in close-combat is dumb, pure and simple. This is Warhammer Fantasy infecting our mostly-functional ruleset. As others have said though, wait and see. If this is legit though, I'm sticking with 5th. People get close-combat wrong enough in my local meta, without this additional shenanigans of 'lol you don't have enough power in your power weapon, I get my armour save'. the only thing about WHFB that relates to this is the strength affecting armor save. which is the same in shooting as it is in close combat which is really easy... s3= normal save s4= -1 s5= -2 s6= -3 s7= -4 s8= -5 armor piercing and black powder add in an additional -1 modifier and there are others as well.... so AP in close combat is NOTHING like WHFB, dont try to compare Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3080396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebe Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Warhammer fantasy 8ed ruined the game for me. But we are discussing the 6ed 40k rule set here. We don't have the magic rules that fantasy has. We will likely be incorporating challenges into our rule set. We will have changes to psychic powers, and there will be AP values in cc. So yes there are some vague similarities to fantasy. Let's not overstate them though. We had some strange rules in 2ed too. But 40k survived them. I have difficulty when comparing 40k to fantasy and reading that 40k has no real tactics and is written for little children whereas fantasy is a true strategic game. Even with our 'simplistic' rules there are a plethora of players that do not understand the nuances of 40k. I cannot tell you how many games I've played where I've seen opportunities ignored. Forward blocking with vehicles to protect important units, tank shocking (ignored way too often) misunderstanding how a slingshot works, not pivoting when it is important, ignoring the mathematical probabilities of weapons and assaults, etc. etc. The best players are aware of their opportunities to use the rules to their maximum advantage and design lists that incorporate the parts needed to succeed in large tournaments which have different terrain set ups, different win conditions, etc. That is why certain names appear more often in the winner's list. With that off my chest, yes, there will be changes in 6ed. I don't think mech will die out. I think we will see more dakka oriented lists backed by cc units (terminators will be prevalent in this role) but even now we see this. I am always amused by the roles assigned to certain squads. Take a GK strike squad. How often do you see someone fit them out for cc? I see halberds falchions, etc. in these squads. They are NOT a cc unit. Even purifiers struggle as a cc unit. They are a platform for warp quake, a psycannon and a deamonhammer packaged in a mobile bunker. Purifiers hurt you with quad psycannons. GKSS with warp quake, razors and a psycannon. I avoid cc with my GK until absolutely necessary as a rule. I am more then willing to play a game of attrition at 24". I enter cc if and when my opponent has been neutered and it is a mop up scenario at that point. Or if I have to go after an objective. I play Karamazov - you would think I want to be in cc often to use my OSR. Not so. The OSR is a last resort. I'll take my morale, fearless bonus and multi-melta as his primary role and his added deterrent to assault. If I get a few OSRs off that is a bonus. Will 6ed change my mind set? Doubtful. I will still likely be playing my game at 24" even if I can assault after a DS. The primary change I forsee is how we deal with mech. Melta will be useful but not as dominant a factor anymore. Plasma will again show up as a decent alternative. Assault cannons will be good again. Terminators will be the elite unit they were meant to be. People will experiment more with flyers (which still will not be all that dominant except in IG which have the best). This is not terribly dramatic and it will not ruin the game. It will just alter our approach here and there. . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3080685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Warhammer fantasy 8ed ruined the for me. But we are discussing the 6ed 40k rule set here. We don't have the magic rules that fantasy has. We will likely be incorporating challenges into our rule set. We will have changes to psychic powers, and there will be AP values in cc. So yes there are some vague similarities to fantasy. Let's not overstate them thugh. We had some strnge rules in 2ed too. But 40k survived them. You know, WFB used to be damn cool. Then, someone stepped in and ruined it on his own. His name is now written on the GK codex. Do hope WFB gets better, because it looks like the LotR game now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3080700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 ... Fantasy looks nothing like LotR. In LotR, my army does precisely nothing due to crappy ranges and strength 3 bows in a game where space marines look fragile (and that's because I play the best archers in the game. In fantasy, I rule the freaking board with wood elves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3081448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marid Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Eh, Warhammer Fantasy is a tactical and strategic wargame. 40k is a vehicle for selling models to kids. Seriously, the different in complexity between the two rulesets is immense. If complexity was all that mattered, relatively simple games like Go, Chess, Diplomacy, and even Basketball must be poor uses of one's time, eh? Only complex rulesets make worthy games. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3081677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 I never said that. I'm a member on a 40k forum, aren't I? You take implication that was not there, friend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3081812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I'm sure this is legit. Maybe some of the info miht be a little wrong in function (like our NFW being AP2), but the general rules will be there. Sigh, oh well then. My regular opponents barely understand 5th properly, so sticking with it won't be a problem. They will need a Faq for our NFWs but knowing the trends GW will not nerf any SM codex. If they take away our PWs on DCA, they need to give us something to replace it. No one will want to be within 12" of terminators. I expect SW/Wolf Guard to be packing lots of combi-plasma, FNP BA squads exchanging melta for plasma, etc., etc. Working out assaults will not be that complicated. You will know the AP values of weapons after a few games for sure. Glancing vehicles to death will be the norm. I never found the need for LRs in my GK lists but now they just might be new inclusions. It will not be easy to take them out and you really do not want to get into melta range just to be assaulted by terminators. I think GK overall will be fine in 6ed. I'm waiting for the DS rules to be explicit. If we get to assault after DSing, Mordrak lists might be quite popular. I can't wait. It just motivates me to not even bother with PA squads, when TDA will just mop the floor with anything but powerfist spam (ie Stormhammers). I wouldn't worry about us getting a nerf, it's highly unlikely (and we are already the best generalists in the game). Eh, Warhammer Fantasy is a tactical and strategic wargame.>tactical and strategic wargame >tactical and strategic Stopped reading there :) No, it is a game about selling billions of manz to make up your Core blocks, and then rolling over the enemy army with OP magic. Anyone not following that formula gets blasted off the field. The major exceptions being Dwarves (who replace 'magic artillery' with 'real artillery') and Empire (who have both, and cheaper Core). the only thing about WHFB that relates to this is the strength affecting armor save. which is the same in shooting as it is in close combat which is really easy... s3= normal save s4= -1 s5= -2 s6= -3 s7= -4 s8= -5 armor piercing and black powder add in an additional -1 modifier and there are others as well.... so AP in close combat is NOTHING like WHFB, dont try to compare Well its true you can't wound allocate in Fantasy (shudder), but my point still stands. You are re-introducing complexity into a ruleset that functions largely due to having simple, easy to understand rule interactions. I find most people struggle to understand WS comparison or morale in combat, you add this in (on top of wound allocations, as they are apparently buggering that up as well), it's just unnecessary. It also disproportional affects armies who have powerfist-type weapons and those that don't, and those that have 2+ squads and those that don't. People already moan about Marines enough as it is, making their premier Elite unit even better against one of the few hard counters to them is just dumb. I'm not even going to mention Paladins. You know, WFB used to be damn cool. Then, someone stepped in and ruined it on his own. His name is now written on the GK codex.Do hope WFB gets better, because it looks like the LotR game now. I won't lie, Daemons broke 7th wide open (and are still the elephant in the room in 8th sadly). But 7th was already insanely broken by DE, VC, WoC etc prior to that. If anything, 8th toned down a fair bit of that insanity, and made other armies at least vaguely viable. Provided you don't ever play against or with Daemons, it isn't too bad at the moment (although the focus on infantry blocks, OP magic and artillery is a bit much, and the shooting rules for non-artillery are god-awful). I never said that. I'm a member on a 40k forum, aren't I? You take implication that was not there, friend. Er...dude... 40k is a vehicle for selling models to kids. Your comparison was all about one being more intricate and tacticool, while the other is 'just for kids'. Unless what you meant to say was; 'Fantasy is a vehicle for selling useless monsters to kids' '40k is a vehicle for selling vehicle/monster kits to kids' 'LotR is the black hole of fail howling in every profit/loss statement they produce' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3088334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 If Fantasy and 40k are becoming more and more alike, I may want to get a small Fantasy army and trey it out. What would the fantasy equivalent of Grey Knights be? Not in fluff but in models and tactics? I’m thinking super elite, low model count and ultimate bad asses. Ogre kingdoms? I would want to play the equivalent to Draigo Wing… Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3088357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalbik Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 ...deleted For being of topic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3088518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 If Fantasy and 40k are becoming more and more alike, I may want to get a small Fantasy army and trey it out. What would the fantasy equivalent of Grey Knights be? Not in fluff but in models and tactics? I’m thinking super elite, low model count and ultimate bad asses. Ogre kingdoms? I would want to play the equivalent to Draigo Wing… Warriors of Chaos or Ogre Kingdoms. They both have access to excellent magic Lores, and they both bring different flavours of Deathstar (Chosen just refuse to die and stack buffs on top of buffs, Ironguts are immune to enemy magic due to Rune Maw and obliterate whatever they hit in combat, whilst having a million wounds to chew through). FYI, shooting rules suck hard in Fantasy, so you won't find the 'generalist' style of Knights anywhere in it. Magic, artillery that doesn't require to hit rolls (cannons, template weapons etc) and melee infantry blocks dominate. I fear we are straying way off topic now though :P so lets get back to 6th edition, shall we? OT: I think Knights will fair fine. And with the new rules for Allies, we can plug weaknesses in our army using the IG, just like in the old days. The real question will be, are any of the xenos armies going to be worth playing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/253649-gkt-and-6th/page/2/#findComment-3089485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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