Beating the Unbeatable?

[brothergrimnar]

First post, hope it's in the right place!

 

I've been challenged by my current gaming groups undefeated champion to a 1500pt game against his Tyranids. I play vanilla marines and have never faced Tyranids before.

 

I've had a look around the interwebs for tactics but figured I'd post something in the hope of getting more focused advice =]

 

Right, I'm very new to the actual gaming side of 40k, so my tactics are little, but I know what my units can do and I know how to do it, my opponent has been playing for years and from what I hear is a very 'win at all costs' type of player. everyone from Orks to Necrons have had trouble getting to turn 5 with him so I presume he builds his lists to counter exactly what he'll face.

 

I don't expect to win, I just want to put up a decent fight to perhaps keep my honour :D

 

My only advantage is that I've seen him play. A mix of Carnifexes and warriors for the bones and pretty much exclusively Hormagaunts and Genestealers for the meat. Maybe some Tervigons and Zoanthropes and of course, a Swarmlord.

All this is used how I expect the general Tyranid player uses them, get them into CC, ASAP, tie everything up and march in the big boys to break everything the little guys can't.

 

What I would like to know is if there are any solid tactics against such a skilled player, maybe things he wouldn't expect or have accounted for?

I've just ordered yet another load of stuff so there's not much I can't field except for thunderfire cannons, bikes and attack bikes.

My thoughts at the moment are to set up a huge base of fire, 3 dakka preds, 3 MM/HF land speeders to defend them, tac squads a plenty to bolster the line in Rhinos, maybe a dreadnought, points allowing.

Wait for him to get to me then unleash 3 drop pods behind him with a 10 man Sternguard squad with libby to nail the Swarmlord and two dreadnoughts to mop up the counter charges.

 

Any and all advice welcomed, at least it may save me from panicking and filling a land raider with terminators ;)

Thanks in advance!

[Ming]

Generic marines, eh? Vs Tyranids with a WAC player? Keep your honor intact?

 

Kantor's or Vulkans Kastle may be your answer.

 

1. Kantor's Kastle: You plan to benefit from being stubborn and having more cc attacks than the opponent expects. Kastle up in Rhinos or razorbacks, in the center of your deployment (or corner as a refused flank), and focus long range fire on Synapse creatures (or bug birthers), while using bolters, templates (thunderfire), flamers on the close little bugs and stealers. Hard at 1500 points to get a landraider redeemer in with termies, but possible, held for counterassault. OPFOR may employ doom or other tunnelling critters, so watch for that. In this case, when the bugs charge, your units in the Kantor bubble will get extra attacks as if you charged him. Assault termies can be a mix of claw and TH/SS.

 

2. Vulkan Kastle Variant: Max/min on melta weapons and flamers, include HF/MM speeders or bikes and maybe podded dread. Main units form the Kastle, fast attackers and ven dread drop on the back of the OPFOR and cause havoc since the melta and flamer weapons are now twin linked. In this case you want to be more ssuccessful in shooting and flaming bugs before they charge you. Termies if used should just go TH/SS since they become master crafter; hold these to attack his big bugs.

 

Good luck! Going for honor may mean ignoring objectives and just shooting up the bug player, forcing him to come at you. If so, make sure you are deplyed as far as possible away, to get in the extra shooting rounds. WAC players typically go for tabling rather than objectives, so at turn 4 or so feel free to just tank shock through his units to head towards the objectives then.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Thunderfire cannons work wonders against Nids. With the 60" range you can hit his stuff before he can hit you back with any of this range. Use the TFC to hit his small stuff that need to move forward to get the big stuff to you. Use the Temor ranges to make them have to roll to see how far they got and being templates you can hit the grouped guys harder.

 

As Ming said use Missile Launchers and Lascannons on Synapse Creatures to help slow him down or break his lines.

[pyroknight]

I have never faced Tyranids, but it sounds like you are off to a good start.

I will offer some general advice that may come in handy when playing hardcore players.

 

1) Know your codex and the core rules. If possible, know something about his codex. Be polite if he bends the rules and back up your position from the rulebook. Don’t forget about your sternguard special ammo, its amazing.

2) Practice, practice, practice. Your unit roles and the rules themselves become easier the more you play. Reading a lot of good tactics helps a lot, but practicing good tactics helps more. The best laid plans rarely survive contact with the enemy, so you need to know how to deploy them mid game.

3) It takes practice, but against any melee opponent you need to learn when to feed a unit to their death squad. A normal unit moves 6, charges 6, and could get an extra D6 if it is fleet (for 12+D6”). If you have a blocker standing one inch away, they will most likely charge it and move 1” + D6 consolidate (for 1+D6”). Despite the death of that unit, that can be an extra round of shooting into them, or time for you to get away. Additionally, you got to choose the unit that died. Remember to use combat tactics if you get stuck in melee.

4) Remember it’s a game about having fun no matter how complaining, griping, or cheating your opponent does. If your opponent is exceptionally foul tempered, you don’t need to play them again.

[DerekLee688]

Landspeeder Typhoons can take on anything that the nids can throw at you. IIRC only one of their entries in the entire codex can have a 2+ armor save. So, krak missile the big ones and frag template+heavy bolter the small ones. That is if you can convert/use your current land speeders. The range of your hurricane's HF will doom them, unless you drop a few templates on large units and then assault them with another unit.

 

A good tactic I've seen for nids/orks involves a flamer/tac squad in a rhino tank shocking a group to cluster them, and then disembarking the squad to template them.

 

Take this tactic and perhaps use close combat scouts with a combi flamer and a librarian with avenger. I don't have my codex with me or I'd have scouts transport options.

[ShinyRhino]

Take this tactic and perhaps use close combat scouts with a combi flamer and a librarian with avenger. I don't have my codex with me or I'd have scouts transport options.

 

There are none outside of taking a Landspeeder Storm as a Fast Attack slot.

 

The recommendation of Typhoons is a good one, as nothing listed in the Nid player's typical build can withstand concentrated volleys of krak fire. The problem is the sheer number of wounds these MCs will have. The Swarmlord alone has five. Carnifex have four, and Tervigons have six. That;s 15 wounds on just three models, and if there are multiples of the Carnifex or Tervigon, you're looking at a boatload of wounds to knock down. The cover save from Venomthropes isn't a dealbreaker, but it will throw a wrench in the works.

It's going to require a LOT of krak shots every turn to knock down the big bugs. I'd say you want at least two squadrons of two Typhoons. That way you can drop a Carnifex per turn if everything goes perfectly, but you have a backup volley should it not. You might also consider five-man missile Devastator teams, again for the four-missile volley. Focus fire the closest big bug every turn, but if nothing is in threat range, nail the Tervigons with missiles until they pop.

 

The REAL challenge is keeping the Genestealers and Hormagaunts (who likely have Toxin Sacs) off your back while you're focus-firing the big bugs. It will require clever positioning of your tactical and anti-infantry squads to keep them at bay. Ensure none of the units are close enough to the approaching gribblies to allow a multi-assault (learn the steps for assaulting by rote, as many players declare illegal multi-assaults due to not knowing the steps taken in moving attacking models).

[DarkGuard]

Missiles, mech. There you have the bane of Tyranid armies. I play Nids myself, and it is those things I hate the most. Krak missiles wound MCs on 2s, and only T-Fexes and armoured shell Tyrants get saves against them. Krak missiles also instant kill Warriors and Raveners. And then there's frag missiles, which are very handy against hordes, I've wiped out 20 Hormagaunts in one volley from a CML Terminator squad. Flamers are also a good weapon against hordes, while plasma and meltaguns are handy against MCs, the latter is also good against Warriors.

 

And then mech. Now Nids have huge problems with mech, especially at range. Hive Guard are awesome, but only have a 24" range, the Zoanthrope has an even shorter range. While the venom cannons (and heavy venom cannon) have a greater range they are poor anti-tank weapons due to -1 on the vehicle damage table, while the rupture cannon is mounted on a monster than can't shoot straight. In combat they are better, especially with their MCs, but that involves getting there. Also, most of the time the unit inside will then get out and damage them.

 

So, keep your units in vehicles, load up on missile launchers, and bring a counter attack unit to fill in the gaps.

[Voloch]

Riflenoughts for MCs (4 twin-lined S7)

Sniper Scouts w/HB for MCs (pinning + rending, always wound 4+, 2+ for HB)

Whirlwinds for horde (consider over TFC for indirect fire, always pinning, cheaper)

Sternguard for anti-everything and counter-assault (they pack 2A standard). They compete with riflenoughts for FOC-slot but ... 1 nought, 2 sternguard and then Kantor as Ming suggested.

 

Maybe something like this:

 

Kantor

 

10 Sternguard

10 Sternguard

1 Riflenought

 

5 scouts (4 sniper + HB)

5 scouts (4 sniper + HB)

5 scouts (4 sniper + HB)

 

Whirlwind

Whirlwind

Whirlwind

 

Coming in at 1310, leaving 190 for more scouts, upgrades for the Sternguard or Land speeders (either dual-HB (60pts each for 6 S5 shots at range 36" + 6" movement!) or Typhoons (for versatility but more expensive)). 5 scoring units so far. Very close to my old Crimson Fist list which faced every kind of army.

[tomsev]

Id say TRANSPORT!! on foot they will rip you to pieces... then combi flamer and heavy flamers, you can never have templates against nids, and drop a sternguard on one of the 2 squads so you can put kantor with them... and on first turn deploy him outside the transport, and drop a big template on the big bad enemies, that should hurt him... typhoons are good but to be honest i now after testing that storm talons are better so if you have one or have the money to get one do so ( same to you dark guard if your looking :P ;) ;) ) they really are good, and can really hurt lots of things ...

thats my 2 cents...

cheers Tomsev

[vorticone]

Missiles, mech. There you have the bane of Tyranid armies. I play Nids myself, and it is those things I hate the most. Krak missiles wound MCs on 2s, and only T-Fexes and armoured shell Tyrants get saves against them. Krak missiles also instant kill Warriors and Raveners. And then there's frag missiles, which are very handy against hordes, I've wiped out 20 Hormagaunts in one volley from a CML Terminator squad. Flamers are also a good weapon against hordes, while plasma and meltaguns are handy against MCs, the latter is also good against Warriors.

 

And then mech. Now Nids have huge problems with mech, especially at range. Hive Guard are awesome, but only have a 24" range, the Zoanthrope has an even shorter range. While the venom cannons (and heavy venom cannon) have a greater range they are poor anti-tank weapons due to -1 on the vehicle damage table, while the rupture cannon is mounted on a monster than can't shoot straight. In combat they are better, especially with their MCs, but that involves getting there. Also, most of the time the unit inside will then get out and damage them.

 

So, keep your units in vehicles, load up on missile launchers, and bring a counter attack unit to fill in the gaps.

 

Sounds right on the spot. I play Vanilla Marines and Tyranids regularily and this is very good advice. Missiles are a nightmare for nids, so definately field a Dev squad with missiles and if you can bring a Whirlwind.

 

Not sure how well the following advice works outside of my gaming group, but here it is usually a nice idea:

- Deploy all your units very close together, either in the middle of your deployment zone, or deny a corner, but have your Whirlwind deploy far far away. It is a cheap unit and if you can distract your enemy to go for it, more shots on the interceptors for you. If not, shoot right in the middle of his/your units. A marine does not fear the Whirlwind.

- Hammer Terminators work wonders for tarpitting his units. All of them. Against the MCs you have your shield saves, the small nids cannot realistically hurt you. If he takes Hormagaunts with poison and adrenal glands, watch out that he does not get the charge on one of your important units. But after the first round, they are much less dangerous (and a point sink for him anyways).

- If he brings a Trygon or DakkaFex (Carnifex with 2 TL shooties), make it a priority to kill those. They hurt!

 

I guess I would play something along those lines against nids:

HQ Vulkan

ELITE Hammer Terminators in a LR Redeemer

TROOPS 2x Flamer/ML with Rhino

FA 2x Land Speeder with Flamer/Missiles

HS Devastatos with 4x ML and a Whirlwind

 

Leaves a few points to juggle around. Maybe switch one Troops flamer to Plasma and maybe give the Sergeants some PF or PW.

[awfulawful]

You're new to the game, this guy is WAAC, and he challenged you? Why does it not surprise me that he is undefeated?

[DerekLee688]

Take this tactic and perhaps use close combat scouts with a combi flamer and a librarian with avenger. I don't have my codex with me or I'd have scouts transport options.

 

There are none outside of taking a Landspeeder Storm as a Fast Attack slot.

 

 

Land raider is always an option. It's hard and nids hate them right? It still acts as a force multiplier for flamers. Bare bones librarian + scouts is probably the cheapest useful thing you can fill one with. Wether or not the OP owns them all is another question. It's what I would do.

 

Another option is to use sternguard in a rhino or razorback. Sterngard can have all the flamer template weapons in the armory, including the heavy flamer. A 5 man squad can ride with a librarian in a razorback and put out 3x S:5 templates (one AP3) and three more Combi-flamer templates. Razorback can have anti-carnifex weapons, anti-horde weapons, or something expensive to fill both. You can have two small units in razorbacks. One filled with flamer weapons and the other with melta weapons to kill Carnifexes. This isn't even list taloring because it handels infantry and armor. You can have the razorbacks have the opposite weapons from what they are transporting so either on of the two units can be used aginst any target.

 

A rhino full has alot more assault power and you don't need a full squad of 10 to get all the extra options, so transport 9 SG and your librarian.

 

Sterngaurd can be bolter armed models, so just paint some extra gold trim on a regular tac marine and call it sternguard. However the combi-weapons and special/heavy weapons may take some money/creativity to get.

[DarkGuard]

Riflenoughts for MCs (4 twin-lined S7)

Sniper Scouts w/HB for MCs (pinning + rending, always wound 4+, 2+ for HB)

Whirlwinds for horde (consider over TFC for indirect fire, always pinning, cheaper)

Sternguard for anti-everything and counter-assault (they pack 2A standard). They compete with riflenoughts for FOC-slot but ... 1 nought, 2 sternguard and then Kantor as Ming suggested.

 

Maybe something like this:

 

Kantor

 

10 Sternguard

10 Sternguard

1 Riflenought

 

5 scouts (4 sniper + HB)

5 scouts (4 sniper + HB)

5 scouts (4 sniper + HB)

 

Whirlwind

Whirlwind

Whirlwind

 

Coming in at 1310, leaving 190 for more scouts, upgrades for the Sternguard or Land speeders (either dual-HB (60pts each for 6 S5 shots at range 36" + 6" movement!) or Typhoons (for versatility but more expensive)). 5 scoring units so far. Very close to my old Crimson Fist list which faced every kind of army.

 

Not a great list against Nids for one reason, Pedro. You don't want to stay in combat, you want to stay out of it. Pedro does the opposite. And he makes you better in assault, which you will be awful at against Nids. If you want a character for Nids you want Vulkan for twin-linked flamers etc.

 

Also, Rifleman Dreads are awful against Nids. S7 AP4 isn't good against any MC apart from a Harpy, and you don't see them about often. Any other MC will laugh them off with T6 and a 3+ save.

 

Also, Typhoons would be better than Whirlwinds, as they can do anti-infantry and also anti-MCs.

[Grey Mage]

Id say take a full 10 sniper scouts, theyre good for taking out monstrous creatures, but have the volume of fire to help a bit against horde-o-nids if you need to.

 

2 Full tactical squads, probly plasmagun and plasmacannon if you can manage it- though missile launcher and plasmagun is not a bad buy either.

 

A whirlwind, two if you happen to have them might not go amiss.

 

A small squad of terminators- say 5 with a cyclone- could actually shine in this environment.

 

Definitely as many typhoons as you can pack in though.

 

And a Librarian for the psychic hood might not be a bad thought either if he runs alot of psyckers. Stopping catalyst or psychic scream can be a lifesaver.

[Stormshadow]

In my limited experience with SM Vs Nids I have found scouts with heavy bolters to be superb, there hellfire shells rely do the trick. Land Raiders are also good, and Terminators (all kinds) really shine. Sternguards are always good :devil:.

 

When fighting a more experienced opponent, I often recommend fielding an army that relies more on good sturdy units rather than skill. Stick with units that can both take and give a beating. Here is an example list of what I mean, but consider the type of list and not this exact list.

 

HQ:

Lysander 200

 

Elites:

10x Terminators: 2x cyclones. 460p

 

Troop:

5x Scouts. PF and combi Flamer, Heavy Bolter. 120p

 

5x Scouts. PF and combi Flamer, Heavy Bolter. 120p

 

Heavy:

 

Land Raider 250

 

Land Raider 250

 

TF Cannon: 100

 

Lysander and the Terminators are hard for the Nids to kill, they can move and shoot with a re-roll, potentially take 4 wounds from a MC and disintegrate a unit of stealers in one turn of shooting. The Scouts can sit next to the raiders and shoot, and jump in to them as soon as anything gets near. They can also counter assault out of them if they need to. The TFC is fragile, but it has range and with two Land Raiders in the army you should be able to hide it from the enemy. With the added TLLC and Heavy Bolters the Raiders bring, you should be able to take down some MC before they get to close.

[DarkGuard]

You've got to be really careful with Terminators against Nids, they can go one of two ways. One of those ways if them holding off multiple waves of Nids with superior shooting, armour and combat. In one game my 10 man dual CML squad killed 2 units of Stealers (in assault), a unit of Hormagaunts, a unit of Ymgarls, and then took out two Tyrant Guard in assault and stuck a wound or two on Swarmlord. So very impressive.

 

The other is to be drowned in superior numbers. In another game, my brother ran 5 Hammernators on the board, and my 16 strong Hormagaunt brood charged them with toxin sacs and furious charge

(from Swarmlord), dealing 31 wounds. He lost every single one of them. They were two small and always going to go down to mass numbers.

 

So don't just stick them on the board and expect them to win for you. Be careful with them, protect them from too many numbers at once, and roll well!

[Stormshadow]

The other is to be drowned in superior numbers. In another game, my brother ran 5 Hammernators on the board, and my 16 strong Hormagaunt brood charged them with toxin sacs and furious charge

(from Swarmlord), dealing 31 wounds. He lost every single one of them. They were two small and always going to go down to mass numbers.

 

This is important!

 

Think of it as weed whacking. Keep the area in front of you clear. The Terminators by themselves have a good chance of killing one big Tyranid blob in the shooting phase (the once in my example list), but only one! The rest of your army has to help out with anything else that has gotten to close. It may be allot better to kill the approaching tar pits than the MC’s . The terminators are well equipped to handle them in CC.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

Don't underestimate Nid shooting aswell. They may not be able to shoot straight or hit the side of a barn but with enough shots they can hit a few times.

[Warprat]

I played against a Swamp Lord army and tied using a Librarian, 10 Terminators, 4 Tac Squads and a Dreadnought.

 

I made a couple mistakes. One was charging the Swamp Lord with my Librarian. The Librarian's initiative was way too low to survive. And his psychic hood and Null Zone should have been preserved. Second, I divided my Terminators into combat squads. I also allowed my dreadnought to be fired on by those psychic weapons bugs, which removed both his weapons.

 

What I did right was to concentrate all my army to one side of the table aganst his Swamp Lord and Guards. Three full Tac squads fired everything they had into the Swamp Lord + a squad of Terminator Storm Bolters. All that did was one wound... LOL.

 

Then I charged with one Terminator squad+ Librarian and Null Zone. The close combat lasted two turns, the 2nd Terminator squad had destroyed the Guard turn 1, which then moved into the Swamp Lord combat turn two to reinforce the other surviving Terminators.

 

My de-armed Dreadnough head butted a big tunneling thing that came out of the ground turn two, holding it in place. My surviving three Termies were headed over to assult it, along with a Tac squad, when the battle was called to a halt due to time at the end of turn three.

 

I still had three and a half squads of Tacs to deal with the little guys heading up in waves, and each were armed with combi-flamer, flamer, plasma cannon (my usual loadout). My whole army was behind a wall.

[DarkGuard]

Charging the Swarmlord is pretty much suicide, he will mince anything in combat. As I'm sure you've noticed your Libby didn't stand a chance.

 

When facing the Swamlord, your favourite weapon should be krak missiles. With only a 3+ save he goes down quickly, even with Guards. I've had my Swarmlord and Guards in cover taken down in one or two turns by concentrated firepower. And often due to cost it'll be one of the only synapse creatures on the board, and so the synapse web will disintegrate.

 

That's another thing, if you can take out the synapse web the Nid army becomes more erratic. It'll function, to a degree. Hormagaunts will charge, Termagants will shoot, and Genestealers won't care, but there'll be a lot less control and they'll be more susceptible to morale. If you can see an easy way to dismantle the synapse web then do it.

[Warprat]

Charging the Swarmlord is pretty much suicide, he will mince anything in combat. As I'm sure you've noticed your Libby didn't stand a chance.

 

LOL, I just wanted to try the force weapon out and forgot about the initiative... I was just winging it. Had no idea I was going to play against Tyranids. The Terminators were quite effective, despite losing 7 to him. Well worth it considering that all my bolters were pretty much bouncing off him/her/it. I did try shooting him first, it just didn't have much effect. I did have some good plasma cannon shots, but held them back because my troops were pretty close. I was trying out basic Terminators without upgrades, so did not take my now usual cyclones. Glad to know they would have helped, thanks!

 

He placed his stuff first, which gave me a fighting chance. I was able to gang up on him. I almost won, but one of my Tac squads was falling back, which meant I couldn't count it for victory points (It would have auto rallied next turn). If he had placed after I did, I would have been toast.

[Stormshadow]

Charging the Swarmlord is pretty much suicide, he will mince anything in combat. As I'm sure you've noticed your Libby didn't stand a chance.

 

Life is so much easier with a Grey Knight Librarian :cuss

[DarkGuard]

Remember Swarmlord makes you re-roll invulnerables as well as cause ID, so I wouldn't feel safe with a GK Libby! :)

 

And yeah, Terminators are all right against Swarmlord. As mentioned earlier my unit did well against Swarmlord, despite being depleted. I lost the unit and Lysander though, but won the game. ;)

[Atlantic]

Honestly, the humble bolter plus the less humble missle launcher are your friends here.

 

Pass on the special characters unless you are in love with them. They aren't going to return the points on the weapons you need to get the job done. Just take a librarian or chaplain for the utility and save the points.

 

Step 1.

 

Take 3 or 4 squads of tac marines with Plasma Guns or Flamers and Missle Launchers. Give them Rhinos or Razorbacks and use the vehicles to create barriers and fire lanes.

 

Step 2.

 

Sprinkle in some more destructive stuff. Your thunderfire cannon, maybe a vindicator or two, Land Raider Redeemer, ML Devs - though I wouldn't do that with C:SM, over priced. Think boom with a mix of weapons that can blow up hordes and Monstrous Creatures. Sternguard with combi melta and combi plas are good times.

 

Step 3. Focus Fire - as in turn all the guns that make the most sense on the nearest target they will be most effective against. Shoot that target till it dies and then move on.

 

Final Advice: Your deployment is going to be key here. Keep him away from you and don't be afraid to use your rhinos to tank shock critters back or to create barriers. Stay out of combat as much as possible and profit. Lots of bolters to thin out gaunts and stealers, bigger stuff for the monstrous creatures. It can be a tough match, but definitely leans toward winnable if you can maneuver and deploy correctly.

[Stormshadow]

Remember Swarmlord makes you re-roll invulnerables as well as cause ID, so I wouldn't feel safe with a GK Libby! :D

 

The trick is to kill it before it can strike back ;)