What the loyal primarchs have in common

[Necoho]

Many have wondered why some fell and some stayed loyal. Was it some flaw in the ancient technology that the Emperor used? Did certain qualities he deliberately sought in his sons leave them vulnerable to temptation? Was it the environment where their pods landed that decided their fate? Or does it come down to something simpler and yet more complex, simple personal decision and will, beyond nature or nurture?

 

Looking at the list of primarchs, the answer seems very obvious:

 

Loyal Primarchs (in no particular order)

 

Roboute Gulliman

Rogal Dorn

Sanguinus

Ferrus Manus

Corax

Vulkan

Jaghaiti Khan

Lion el'Jonson

Leman Russ

 

Chaos Primachs (in no particular order)

 

Horus

Fulgrim

Angron

Mortarion

Magnus

Perturabo

Alpharius

Konrad Curze

Lorgar

 

 

If you want loyalty, make sure that your demigod creations get surnames.

 

 

Seriously, that seems to be the single strongest factor. Of the seven who got one, only one turned traitor. Of the eleven who didn't, seven turned traitor.

[EPK]

Corvus Corax actually, in support of what you are saying.

[Olis]

Horus Lupercal. Magnus the Red. Granted, "the Red" isn't a surname but it's more than a single name.

[Irbis]

Lorgar Auralian? :)

 

And I'd say it's nurture. All the loyal ones grew in functional, normal states.

[Olis]

Although I'd agree it's nurture, it isn't wholly down to growing up in functional, normal states - Corax, for example, grew up amongst prisoners on a moon colony. It's also down to how the Emperor treated them and the state they were in when the rebellion occurred. If Perturabo's legion weren't used for garrison duties constantly, he wouldn't feel begrudged against his biggest rival, Rogal Dorn, who enjoyed the limelight in Perturabo's eyes and thus would have felt less inclined to rebel.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

All the primarchs had multiple titles, interchangeable with their actual names given to them by the Emperor. It was most likely nuture i'd say, with a push from nature. The emperor must of have known he would need a bunch of utter :) to do the dirty work, like Perturabo and his trench warfare meatgrinders, Angron and his unrelenting genocide. Although this doesn't account for all the Primarch's loyalist and traitor, i would say it was primarily the planet they grew up on, with a push from their intended roles in the future. Most importantly though, the Emperor couldn't of have planned for the Primarchs to be exposed to Chaos so young, which gave the Gods a inlet into twisting a large number of them from birth.

[Necoho]

Horus Lupercal. Magnus the Red. Granted, "the Red" isn't a surname but it's more than a single name.

Isn't Lupercal a sort of honorific/nickname rather than a surname? Do we know where it comes from - I always assumed it was made up his legion for some reason. Similarly Aurelian for Lorgar. Magnus the Red I take it was called that before discovery, but not as a personal name.

 

@Irbis: perhaps, by 40k standards of 'normal' and indeed 'functional'. Mind you, the Lion grew up as a feral child on a death world. Not sure if Ferrus Manus was very socialised either...

[Necoho]

All the primarchs had multiple titles, interchangeable with their actual names given to them by the Emperor. It was most likely nuture i'd say, with a push from nature. The emperor must of have known he would need a bunch of utter :) to do the dirty work, like Perturabo and his trench warfare meatgrinders, Angron and his unrelenting genocide. Although this doesn't account for all the Primarch's loyalist and traitor, i would say it was primarily the planet they grew up on, with a push from their intended roles in the future. Most importantly though, the Emperor couldn't of have planned for the Primarchs to be exposed to Chaos so young, which gave the Gods a inlet into twisting a large number of them from birth.

For what it's worth, I meant having mulitple names when they were comparatively small and squishy. To be honest, while I think it's actually just something about how game designers create 'good' and 'evil' names, the surname theory could fit well with the 'growing up in a functional society' argument. Gulliman and Dorn were parts of families, and that's reflected in their names as well as their personalities.

[Grotsmasha]

Honestly, who really knows, I mean The Lion flips the bird to the nurture theory.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Rik Lightstar]

Honestly, who really knows, I mean The Lion flips the bird to the nurture theory.

 

Cheers,

Jono

 

Does he?

 

Does he REALLY?

 

He's paranoid, to the extent of executing his most trusted advisor, AFTER having sidelined his previous most trusted advisor for looking at him funny.

 

AND

 

Hes a terrible judge of character, trusts Perturabo, doubts Guilliman and believes what Konrad Kurze tells him despite the fact they're in the process of :lol:-slapping each other about.

 

AND

 

He truss the Watchers, who are just plain WEIRD.

 

Rik.

[Grotsmasha]

All true, but despite all that, he remained Loyal.

 

Jono

[Iron Father Ferrum]

All true, but despite all that, he remained Loyal.

 

Jono

 

That depends on who you ask, now doesn't it?

[MadDoc]

That depends on who you ask, now doesn't it?

No, it really doesn't.

[Vesper]

That depends on who you ask, now doesn't it?

No, it really doesn't.

 

Your acting is pretty good. You're right, do not blow your cover until the time is right. :lol:

[MadDoc]

Your acting is pretty good. You're right, do not blow your cover until the time is right. :P

:lol:

[Irbis]

Although I'd agree it's nurture, it isn't wholly down to growing up in functional, normal states - Corax, for example, grew up amongst prisoners on a moon colony.

 

Not really. Unlike Angron, he grew up as a savior, a hero, meant to liberate his people. And he did, making his planet into a functional state. Angron was just a toy, unhinged by surgery and failed at his mission. So, between two, Corax was far more normal, though given his later actions Corax was at deep end of the 'normal' pool.

 

Isn't Lupercal a sort of honorific/nickname rather than a surname? Do we know where it comes from - I always assumed it was made up his legion for some reason. Similarly Aurelian for Lorgar. Magnus the Red I take it was called that before discovery, but not as a personal name.

 

@Irbis: perhaps, by 40k standards of 'normal' and indeed 'functional'. Mind you, the Lion grew up as a feral child on a death world. Not sure if Ferrus Manus was very socialised either...

 

Seeing 'Lupus' is wolf, and his Legion was Luna Wolves, it might be a title. Who knows? Same for Aurelian (gold) given his skin color.

 

Anyway, the point is, Lion was even deeper end of the loyalist pool than Corax, despite growing in monastic order, so nurture still holds. He didn't fall only to his inborn inherited immunity and loyalty drilled into him in the order, it seems, yet he hung by a thread, seeing how easily his marines started betraying his cause. You don't read about Fists or Ultras needing to genocide their home planet and half of their brothers, do you?

 

Manus was just a loner, once he proved himself he started socializing without problems, forging a state of his own.

[TennisBall]

Dumb luck would be the answer for some. Lorgar had the misfortune of growing up in a society of chaos worshippers. Fulgrim was poisoned by a tainted sword. Horus was tainted after being mortally wounded and revived with chaos magiks thanks to Lorgar so Lorgar's misfortune turned into Horus' misfortune too.

Magnus was an arrogant idiot and damned himself early on.

Angron was a nutjob as was Kurze.

Mortarion and Perturabo were plain traitors who seemed to be swayed by nothing more than believing Horus' words about the Emperor abandoning them. How that equates to then ripping the Imperium apart suggests they both were simply glory hounds wanting to fight for fighting's sake.

Alpharius equally was a traitor for following the advice of xenos about destroying the Imperium and Emperor. They had the ability to prevent the heresy from getting as far as it did.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

Mortarian and Perturabo really do need some backstory expansion, and i sure do pity the writer who gets lumped with that job. I'm sure Mortarion's upbringing on a poisonous planet ruled by a absolutely bonkers Tyrant had something to do with his authority and loyalty problems, so at least he can be said to have a slight bit of nurture to prep him for turning traitor. Perturabo though, i don't know about his childhood... Anybody know anything about Perturabo's youth, and on a side note, if he has a nickname?

[TennisBall]

I think Horus and Fulgrim at least could have avoided turning to chaos if events had played differently.

Mortarion and Perturabo could possibly have avoided turning too and maybe even Angron.

 

Magnus was doomed, it was only a matter of time. Who knows though, perhaps if the Emperor had better parenting skills he could have worked with Magnus more and found out about his deal with Tzeentch and saved him.

Same with Lorgar, if he'd handled him differently, Lorgar may have been able to uncover the threat that Erebus and the other cultists posed and stopped them.

 

Of the loyalists, I think Russ is probably the only one who would never have been corrupted. The Lion is possibly another as he grew up fighting chaos though he didn't know it at the time.

Any of the others could have fallen like Horus or Fulgrim did.

[Arkangilos]

I think Horus and Fulgrim at least could have avoided turning to chaos if events had played differently.

Mortarion and Perturabo could possibly have avoided turning too and maybe even Angron.

 

Magnus was doomed, it was only a matter of time. Who knows though, perhaps if the Emperor had better parenting skills he could have worked with Magnus more and found out about his deal with Tzeentch and saved him.

Same with Lorgar, if he'd handled him differently, Lorgar may have been able to uncover the threat that Erebus and the other cultists posed and stopped them.

 

Of the loyalists, I think Russ is probably the only one who would never have been corrupted. The Lion is possibly another as he grew up fighting chaos though he didn't know it at the time.

Any of the others could have fallen like Horus or Fulgrim did.

 

And why not Russ?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think Horus and Fulgrim at least could have avoided turning to chaos if events had played differently.

Mortarion and Perturabo could possibly have avoided turning too and maybe even Angron.

 

Magnus was doomed, it was only a matter of time. Who knows though, perhaps if the Emperor had better parenting skills he could have worked with Magnus more and found out about his deal with Tzeentch and saved him.

Same with Lorgar, if he'd handled him differently, Lorgar may have been able to uncover the threat that Erebus and the other cultists posed and stopped them.

 

Of the loyalists, I think Russ is probably the only one who would never have been corrupted. The Lion is possibly another as he grew up fighting chaos though he didn't know it at the time.

Any of the others could have fallen like Horus or Fulgrim did.

 

And why not Russ?

 

I would not go as far as to say that Russ would be the only incorruptible loyal primarch, but i would say i believe that he is highly resistant do corruption by the manner in which he was raised.

 

He was raised to follow the mightiest war leader on Fenrs, and when his adoptive father died, he took that title. When the Emperor came to Fenris and bested Russ in a feat of arms, Russ did what any wolf would do: swear allegiance to the stronger wolf, the new alpha male.

 

The Emperor, being the mightiest human to ever live, is the alpha male of his pack. Russ, like any wolf, will follow the alpha male as long as it is fit to lead. Over time this turned into actual love for the Emperor, and this is why Russ, in my opinion, could never turn traitor.

 

WLK

[Ring-around-the-roses]

A strong argument for him turning to Chaos could be made for the entirely same reasons God beats Emperor beats Russ. Therefore, follow Gods, become more powerfull than Emperor.

Personally, i would hazard the view that none of the Primarchs were incorruptible, as they each had their own flaws and strengths. Guilliman, who is frequently said to be incorruptible (and i do cast wards of anti-flaming at this moment, thrice blessed by the Ecclesiarchy) but his almost compulsion to bring on efficiency and improve everything could be led into Chaos. I'm not saying he'd go easily, but Chaos is nothing if not cunning, and Guilliman's drive to prosper and succeed could reasonably be twisted. But this also applies to all the Primarchs, even Sanguinius could be turned for his love of his Legion, and finding a cure for them. Or for a hundred other reasons i haven't thought of. Everybody can fall, when the eye of the gods is upon them.

[Arkangilos]

And what if something proved more powerful than the Emperor? I mean, if Horus would have won, then that would have made him the Alpha Male, therefore he would have turned.

 

If anything, I think that the whole alpha male thing makes them more likely to turn.

 

 

No, I would say that all of the loyalists are unable to be corrupted, or they would have fallen.

 

And I don't think that Fulgrim really fell, he was "lost."

 

Horus made the choice to turn, Fulgrim didn't really. Even when he resisted, he couldn't control it.

 

What happened to Fulgrim could have happened to any primarch, what happened to Horus couldn't. He was wounded, and rather than die, he sold his soul to live. The loyalists have clearly proven they would not do that.

 

Sanguinius watched his sons die as chaos tried seducing him. Sanguinius was also tempted by his most beloved brother, Horus, but instead chose to die.

 

Guilliman thought of the Imperium as a whole, and fought to the death for it. He was wounded by the same crap that wounded Horus, but did not give in.

 

Dorn died on board a chaos ship, fighting chaos. Again, he could have traded his soul for the right to live, but chose not to. (I can bet that chaos would have spared him had he done that).

 

When Ferrus was tempted by his move beloved brother, Fulgrim, he chose to go with the Emperor, and it led to his death.

 

No clue what Vulcan's was yet.

 

Corax could have turned, and saved his legion, but chose to fight on, to the death.

 

The list goes on, but you get the gist.

 

They were all forced with the life or death situation that Horus was tempted with, especially Sanguinius. They chose the high road, and Horus chose the low road.

[Arkangilos]

Dang, double post and half ninja'd.

 

Oh well, to make use of this:

 

The primarchs were pretty much all faced with the temptations that should have turned them. But those who were loyal turned out to be incorruptable because they chose death over life. Horus picked the other way around.

[Billuriye]

What happened to Fulgrim could have happened to any primarch, what happened to Horus couldn't. He was wounded, and rather than die, he sold his soul to live. The loyalists have clearly proven they would not do that.

 

Nope. That just makes Horus look craven. It's wasn't just a life or death situation. Chaos basically indoctrinated near death Horus with powerful sorcery while Nurgle sapping his willpower. None of the primarchs had their willpower eroded directly like that except for Fulgrim. All loyalists faced tough situations and/or juicy, seductive deals, but none of them had their brains directly scrambled by the Pantheon, again except for Fulgrim. Imagine Horus beating Sanguinius to a pulp with an inch of his life and takes him for indoctrination. Only if Sanguinius resists something like that would prove he's above Horus in the matters of temptation.