What the loyal primarchs have in common

[Arkangilos]

What happened to Fulgrim could have happened to any primarch, what happened to Horus couldn't. He was wounded, and rather than die, he sold his soul to live. The loyalists have clearly proven they would not do that.

 

Nope. That just makes Horus look craven. It's wasn't just a life or death situation. Chaos basically indoctrinated near death Horus with powerful sorcery while Nurgle sapping his willpower. None of the primarchs had their willpower eroded directly like that except for Fulgrim. All loyalists faced tough situations and/or juicy, seductive deals, but none of them had their brains directly scrambled by the Pantheon, again except for Fulgrim. Imagine Horus beating Sanguinius to a pulp with an inch of his life and takes him for indoctrination. Only if Sanguinius resists something like that would prove he's above Horus in the matters of temptation.

 

Eh, I disagree. I think that he still could have made the choice to stay loyal or not. He chose to listen to chaos rather than deny it. It was clear as day that he chose. His judgement was clouded, but he still made the choice.

 

And even if that choice was even for a second, it let chaos in enough to take him.

 

 

 

And I don't think that Sanguinius alone was the only one that could not be corrupted, all of the loyalist primarchs proved to be.

[Billuriye]

His judgement was clouded

 

I think that's an understatement.

 

And I don't think that Sanguinius alone was the only one that could not be corrupted, all of the loyalist primarchs proved to be.

 

I didn't imply that. It was just an example.

[Coryphaus 101]

Lets not forget that Horus was corrupted, almost slain and whispered to by the gods, basically returned from death a changed man. Unlike the "majority" of other Primarchs he needed to be corrupted in soul to join, and apart from a few, I can't see any of the others joining Horus for anything more than selfish reasons. Horus came out believing HE alone should rule the Imperium as he was the one that was fit to do so, but I think all of the other events leading up to the murder of his brother and the near murder of his father cleared the fog, if even for a second, as he realised how far he'd fallen, and that he was being manipulated by chaos instead of being its master, as he could have never even dreamed of hurting his father and slaying his brother so callously before the anathame.

I saved this from a similar topic awhile ago.

 

Horus turned because of nobility. He believed the Emperor was turning on humanity and thought that he could make it right. He chose to use chaos as his weapon but it turned on him.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

Unfortunately, without subjecting every Primarch to a near death and a conspiracies so intricate that nothing in the galaxy bar the Gods themselves could've even contemplated them, and then soaking them in the midst of a Chaos ritual whilst all four of the Chaos Gods, who had destroyed Empires and civilisations before with ease, subject the Primarch to a a truly soul breaking attempt to convert, then we'll never know if they could've held up under fire.

 

The Primarchs are PRIMARCHS. Whenever i read anything about them, i find it easier to believe that there is whole layers of meaning and thought going on that i cannot comprehend. After all, BL are human, trying to represent something that is completely divorced from humanity. That's just my way of dealing with the writing thought, so happily read rule two if you please :tu:

[Jareddm]

Angron and Mortarion have an important piece of history in common as well. Both were the only primarchs to have failed to take complete control of their homeworlds by the time the Emperor came for them. Angron was moments before a final battle that would most likely have killed him, whereas Mortarion was attempting a final trek up to the mountain fortress of his warlord. In Angron's case, he was plucked out from his soldiers, and we all saw how well he took to that. For Mortarion, he had demanded the right to slay the warlord before going with the Emperor, and failed in his attempt, the Emperor stepping in and killing the man in one strike.

 

I don't believe any other primarchs came into the Great Crusade with such intense resentment. While it's possible Angron may have simply forgotten about his homeworld once he could comprehend the power that was being handed to him, I don't think Mortarion ever truly recovered from that humiliation.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Ring-around-the-roses and Telanicus: That only applies if the chaos gods BEAT the emperor. In my personal opinion, they didnt. sure, the messed him up big time, but ultimate victory (his death) was denied to them. So instead of winning the loyalty of Russ, they instead won his hatred and contempt.

 

It also doesnt help their case that they won many of the initial victories through murdering their kin, which Russ found wrong (he sided with Lorgar when the Primarchs gathered and decided what to do with him, and tried to personally warn Magnus prior to his invasion of Prospero. those actions say lot to me)

 

remember, Russ's honor and oath to the Emperor was paramount to him, he came from a culture that refuses the written word, so a man's oath is all he has to give. to go back on that is to forfeit his honor. Also, his culture recognized the danger of chaos and practiced a manner to refuse it. this may have aided him in resisting chaos)

 

(so again, i refuse to believe he was incorruptible. However, due to the enviroment he was raised in and the manner in which he became sworn to the Emperor i think his corruption would be very hard to accomplish, and chaos already had its claws in the other Primarchs.)

 

WLK

[DIDM]

they way I've always thought is that there are 10 different sets of primarchs with a ying and a yang to each set

 

the lost 2 could never get along and fought till death do us part, with the winner banishing themselves for killing their mirror image

 

and just to make it even cooler

 

 

triplets, IDENTICAL

[Legionator]

Horus turned because of nobility. He believed the Emperor was turning on humanity and thought that he could make it right. He chose to use chaos as his weapon but it turned on him.

 

Horus turned because of his arrogance. He was driven mad by the idea that he would be forgetten while the Emperor would be worshipped as a god.

 

I believe all the nine loyal primarchs were incorruptable. They were all tested by different situations according to their weaknesses. Lion abandoned the planet which he saved with great efforts, Corax faced the danger of losing his legion he held so dear etc. Before the release of HH series I had my doubts about Lion's loyalty but now I trust all of them.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

The answer to who was incorruptible and who wasn't can probably be answered in a sequel series to the HH that deals with the Scouring and Second Founding.

[Black.Hunter]

Isn't everybody forgetting Omegon??

 

Isn't everybody forgetting Omegon?? Him and Alpharius were both in on this.

[Raven Angel]

Dumb luck would be the answer for some. Lorgar had the misfortune of growing up in a society of chaos worshippers. Fulgrim was poisoned by a tainted sword. Horus was tainted after being mortally wounded and revived with chaos magiks thanks to Lorgar so Lorgar's misfortune turned into Horus' misfortune too.

Magnus was an arrogant idiot and damned himself early on.

Angron was a nutjob as was Kurze.

Mortarion and Perturabo were plain traitors who seemed to be swayed by nothing more than believing Horus' words about the Emperor abandoning them. How that equates to then ripping the Imperium apart suggests they both were simply glory hounds wanting to fight for fighting's sake.

Alpharius equally was a traitor for following the advice of xenos about destroying the Imperium and Emperor. They had the ability to prevent the heresy from getting as far as it did.

 

 

Mortarian and Perturabo really do need some backstory expansion, and i sure do pity the writer who gets lumped with that job. I'm sure Mortarion's upbringing on a poisonous planet ruled by a absolutely bonkers Tyrant had something to do with his authority and loyalty problems, so at least he can be said to have a slight bit of nurture to prep him for turning traitor. Perturabo though, i don't know about his childhood... Anybody know anything about Perturabo's youth, and on a side note, if he has a nickname?

 

 

Both Mortarian and Perturbo have stated reasons for their treason. When the Emperor found Mortarian he secured his oath of loyalty with Mortarians own failure to kill the last of the Barborossen warlords. This failure and the humiliation Mortarian felt chafed at him and was the root of his betrayal.

 

As for Perturbo if the IA artical is to be belived the IW where as a legion apparently suffering PTSD and felt that they where being used and abbused by the Imperium and some of their brother primarchs. While the truth of these aligations has yet to be born out in the HH novels this would seam to be the core of the rot at the heart of that legion.

[Captain Rolunde]

Indeed.

 

As pointed out by Jareddm, Mortarion had his reasons, he started off with a level of resentment, as did Angron.

 

I'm not saying they were right (or wrong) to feel the way they do, but we are told that is how they felt.

 

Angron and Mortarion have an important piece of history in common as well. Both were the only primarchs to have failed to take complete control of their homeworlds by the time the Emperor came for them. Angron was moments before a final battle that would most likely have killed him, whereas Mortarion was attempting a final trek up to the mountain fortress of his warlord. In Angron's case, he was plucked out from his soldiers, and we all saw how well he took to that. For Mortarion, he had demanded the right to slay the warlord before going with the Emperor, and failed in his attempt, the Emperor stepping in and killing the man in one strike.

 

I don't believe any other primarchs came into the Great Crusade with such intense resentment. While it's possible Angron may have simply forgotten about his homeworld once he could comprehend the power that was being handed to him, I don't think Mortarion ever truly recovered from that humiliation.

 

And then as far as Perturbo and his feelings about how he and his Legion are treated, and actually Horus and his own issues that lead to his fall to Chaos.

 

It has been brought up before that the Astartes aren't exactly raised to deal with their "feelings" and we see with some of the Heroes how they go through a sort of emotional growth from where the Astartes tend to be into something we could see as feeling "more human."

 

IMO the Astartes and their Primarchs are emotionally stunted and the more this is true, the easier it was for Chaos to turn them against the E.

 

The Loyals seem to be the more emotionally stable/ developed of the bunch.

 

Not saying they're all "zen" like, calm cool and collected, just that they seem more... reasonable.

 

I've seen Russ mentioned as being more emotionally deep than he is given credit for. Having his "happy fun times" side that his Legion sees, and his deeper sober side when he is not pandering to them.

 

Sanguinius and Vulkan are at times indicated as being more even and considerate.

 

Guilliaman tends to come off as being a pretty emotionally cool, if not flat out cold, character. But he does promote those that live in his "realm" as being somewhat educated doesn't he? Rather than making them all into ignorant worms.

 

The Lion seems to be doing the best he can, and seems to come of as being sort of caught in the whirlwind of everything going on. Trying to do what he feels is best and we're told trying to serve the Emperor, even if it does not always come off that way in the writing. But I'd say he still falls in the more "emotionally stunted" camp that claims some of the Fallen Primarchs. (Growing up alone in a deep dark Chaos Forrest could do that to a fella.)

It could be that he may have fallen himself if not for a Fanatic loyalty to the Emperor no matter what happens.

 

It's very likely that had Chaos not scattered the Primarchs and they had all been raised by the Emperor, their upbringing could have been something similar to maybe Guilliman's?

 

Less trauma on some of them (especially those above) likely would have seen fewer turn.

[Bulwyf]

We need a novel apiece for Perturabo and Mortarion in the HH. Frankly some of the reasons they have for turning don't really stand on their own merit. Perturabo was ticked because his Legion was garrisoned and didn't get enough credit? Seriously? Mortarion is angry about not getting the death blow on a guy and the Emperor had to do it? C'mon. I know this has been part of the lore but this really needs more reasoning. Lorgar's turn looked pitiful before ADB gave some life to it and actually made it logical. We need the same for these two almost forgotten primarchs.

 

And to go back to something I argued in another thread...I just find it poor form all the way through that not one loyal primarch was considered a "bad guy" and was waivered on turning or that none of the traitor primarchs exuded any real "goodness" after turning. The closest you have there is Curze believing ends justify the means and even then he accepted being murdered as punishment for going too far.

[WolfGuardVortek]

Well few Loyalists players would there legion be the one whos Primarch almost turned traitor.

 

With regards to Pertubo and Mortarion. You can rail against the reasons on you want, but they are honestly enough. Bitterness and resentment, being constantly passed over on the better assignments. Being utterly convinced you are regarded as unsuited for anything other then the most menial of duties. The you add in the arrogance of being Primarch, and couple it with a very poor emotional upbringing and you have a Recipe for rebellion.

 

In Mortarion's case, it's an issue of deep humiliation I would guess. Mortarion was also one of the Primarchs who would have had poor emotional development.

[Pariah Mk.231]

I think there's something that just about everyone is overlooking when talking about who was corruptable and who wasn't: Timing.

 

It's been mentioned that each were at some stage tested or didn't turn to Chaos on the brink of death and so on, but each example has generally been viewed in a vacuum. I'm going to go though each of the Primarchs in turn and give my reasoning why some were at risk of falling to Chaos and others were safe.

 

I'll try to stay in order of legion.

 

Lion: Generally, I don't believe the Lion was at too great a risk as things were. Those Dark Angels that fell did so due solely to Luther's manipulations, which in turn was only a factor because the gods managed to turn his resentment and jealousy of being left behind on Caliban to their ends. Luther might have realised he had let Chaos in, but those under him might not have realised just what they had gotten themselves into until after the gods scattered them through space and time, so they didn't fall because of some flaw, they simply rebelled, lashing out at those they felt had abandoned them after being led astray by a demogogue.

Had Luther been with Lion rather than on Caliban, it's unlikely the gods would have managed to turn him as those feeling of being left behind by his most beloved friend would not have existed to exploit.

On the other hand, if those that Luther corrupted hadn't opened fire as soon as the rest of the legion came home, hiding their treachery until the time was right, Luther could have instead attempted to play on his brother's somewhat naive nature and corrupt him when they were reunited. However, given the timing, the effects of marines turning to Chaos had already been felt and Lion would have been wary of temptation and have been forced to kill Luther once he caught on to what he was trying to do.

Had Horus found Lion, rather than the Emperor, his nature might have allowed him to be corrupted later by instilling a stronger bond between the two primarchs, rather than between father and son. However, once the result of the traitor's betrayal had been witnessed, if he had not already been turned to Horus' cause, any chance of corrupting him would be gone as the nature of Chaos would have already been exposed for what it was to those not already tainted by it. (this last point is pretty much true of every primarch: if they weren't already on board with Horus by the time the events in the Istvaan system occured, being able to bear witness to his treachery would be enough to ensure they remained loyal to the Emperor)

 

Fulgrim: Couldn't keep myself reading Fulgrim past chapter one so I have no idea what they're saying about his fall now. Never much cared for him anyway, so I don't really care what his chances of resisting Chaos were. Moving on.

 

Perturabo: Had Dorn and Perturabo's positions been reversed, with Perturabo being recognised for his genius with both technology, siege warfare and fortifications rather than being overlooked and having his rightful recognition pass to his more sociable brother, he might not have felt the resentment he felt. These feelings he felt, coupled with the roles his legion were given and the fact his homeworld was one of the only legion homeworlds to fall to rebellion, which added a sense of humiliation to his already tortured psyche, left him wide open to the promises of Horus. Had he simply been recognised and given his due credit, he wouldn't have felt the resentment he did. Rotate the role his legion played during the crusade with other legions from time to time and he wouldn't have felt that his legion wasn't valued for their talents. Had these two factors been rectified earlier, Perturabo might have had an easier time emotionally dealing with his homeworld's rebellion and not have been left in a condition Horus could exploit.

Indeed, it might actually be Horus who could have saved Perturabo, ironically enough, for had be found his brother instead, he might have used his talents differently initially, so that when he was re-united with his legion, their role might have not been solely based on siege warfare. They might instead of had closer ties to the Ad Mech and served in a function similar to the Iron Hands, which in turn would not have eaten at the spirit of his legion the way the brutal siege warfare and endless garrison duties did. Perturabo's betrayal is one of pure circumstance, which could have been easily avoided with a little forsight from his father.

 

Khan: I've seen nothing that would suggest Khan was ever at much risk from falling to Chaos, though I'm sure if Angron hadn't provided a much easier choice for Khorne to ensnare, the savage nature of the inhabitants of Chogoris (I prefer to call it by the name it's inhabitants call it, not what some explorator fleet designated it as out of hand) might have made a suitable second choice for the Blood God's champions. Khan's sense of honour would not have been sufficient to save him, and had he met Horus first and recognised in him the same ability to unite all the stars into a single realm, he might very well have followed him into treachery instead, seeing Chaos as the tool that would bind humanity together. Where Angron was forced by circumstance into the role he would eventually play, Khan was willingly engaging in bloodshed and brutality in his youth, bathing in his enemies blood and mounting skulls as trophies and had slaughtered hundreds of thousands in a crusade of vengeance and conquest before the Emperor found him. Oh yes, Khan probably would have been Khorne's first choice of champion had Angron not proven easier to corrupt.

 

Russ: It could be argued again that had Horus found Russ first and bested him as his father did, that Russ would have viewed him as the "alpha male" instead, with the name of the Luna Wolves having increased significance to Russ as it would have been viewed by him as a kinship between his own legion (once given to him) and his brother's. However, it has been mentioned already that the people of Fenris were already aware of the nature of Chaos and had been combating it's foul creatures long before the arrival of Russ. That this was already a part of who Russ was, and considering Russ' personality, had he become aware of his brother's corruption prior to the Heresy he would have been forced to confront him on it, potentially revealing the traitor's plans before they were ready to be set in motion, possibly before many of the other traitor primarchs had turned, upsetting the Heresy completely and ensuring Horus' defeat long before he reached Terra.

It's also possible that upon meeting his father, he would recognise in him a figure more powerful than Horus and consider his father the alpha instead. I believe without a doubt that there was no way Russ would have fallen to Chaos. Had life on Fenris been different, it might be a completely different story, but if we go with the facts about the infants being stolen or the planets they land on being immutable law and only work with what influences them once they're there, then we must also accept that life is as it is on Fenris and as such Russ would already be suss to the ruinous powers.

 

Dorn: Dorn might very well have suffered the same inevitable fall to Chaos that Horus suffered had he been the first Primarch found and eventually granted the title of Warmaster. His fall might have even been easier due to his pride and ego. Likewise, he might have followed the path of Perturabo had their positions been reversed, with Dorn's troops being tasked with brutal campaigns, backbreaking labour and endless garrison duty while the Iron Warriors and their primarch received all the glory and the honour of fortifying Terra. It's quite possible he would have followed his brother when approached had he and his legion had to suffer as Perturabo and the Iron Warriors had. The claim has been made that he didn't turn to Chaos in an attempt to avoid his own death, but without confirmation of his death (only his hand was found, with no trace of the rest of his body) we can't be sure that he didn't, or that he isn't actually imprisoned in the warp somewhere. Had his resolve and mental defenses been under constant attack, despair flooding his mind while he lay helpless and dying and the gods offered him an escape, I believe he would have accepted. But he was not put in the same situation, if he indeed died upon that warship, then he did so quickly and at full strength. A comparison cannot be made between Dorn and Horus on the grounds that they didn't both choose Chaos to avoid their death, because the circustances of their situations were nothing alike. Put in Horus' shoes, and faced with what his brother faced, there really is no question that Dorn would have given in. He would have been to stubborn to let himself die when there was a chance to live.

 

Curze: Not a chance, he was doomed the moment he landed on Nostramo. The only way Curze wouldn't have become a traitor is if the Emperor had never found him. He would have remained the shadow king of Nostramo, tormented by his visions, but likely never driven to the point where he'd destroy the planet out of pure despair. He could have lived on as the Night Haunter indefinately, enforcing a brutal peace through terror upon his subjects and having never known that there existed places not as bleak as Nostramo. He resigned himself to that role, became it in his entirety, embracing the darkness and the brutality so that he would become the only monster his people need fear. Being taken from the darkness didn't release Curze from the monster he'd become and in time no reality that he could never again give up the darkness inside him was too much for him to bear. The revelation that he'd become this monster for nothing, that the people of Nostramo had reverted to their old ways almost as soon as he left and that he was destined to die at his father's hand (in this case, represented by the assassin M'Shen), he broke. It was too much, the darkness in him had no place in the Emperor's light, it was only right that he die and he knew this from the day the Emperor came for him.

 

Sanguinius: I'm a little torn on this one. While I am convinced that the Angel is the one primarch that could never be corrupted due to his very nature (his in particular being so strong that the arguement for nurture can't even tough him ... I mean, he grew up on a radioactive desert world inhabited by tribes of mutants and still turned out as he did), I do believe his legion could have been corrupted fairly easily if Slaanesh had got hold of them. They already have a drive to indulge in things like artwork and poetry, and can be fairly vain in regards to their appearance as all the jewelry would imply, so it doesn't seem like a stretch that they could have fallen to Slaanesh if they could somehow have been influenced in their primarchs abscence (prior to his death obviously). Even seeing his own legion turn to Chaos, Sanguinius would not have had enough within himself for the dark gods to find purchase. Instead, he would likely sink into despair for a time before finally rising to new heights of pure rage, his fury so great that not even the Emperor could stand against him if it weren't for the fact that his rage would be focussed against the coming darkness, hunting down his traitor brothers and cutting them down one after the other. It would likely then be he, and not Guilliman, that takes charge of driving the traitors to the Eye of Terror, but rather than simply trapping them, he'd continue to give chase, on his own if need be, not resting until either himself or the traitors had been destroyed. I could see him becoming something similar to Draigo.

 

Mannus: Honestly, I don't know enough about the Iron Hands or their primarch to give an analysis of what might have happened differently.

 

Angron: Short of never becoming a cyber-gladiator, there's not much hope for Angron and we have no real information about what he'd be like if that fate hadn't befallen him, so we can't even begin to imagine if he had a chance of resisting Chaos. (shut up Dornian Heresy, you're alternate history along pre-determined lines, you have no say here ... no matter how awesome you are)

 

Guilliman: Despite Ultramarines being the posterboys, I honestly don't know much about them during the Heresy, well, not enough anyway to determine how suseptable their primarch would be to Chaotic temptation and I'm pretty sure any thoughts I have are going to be tainted by the Dornian Heresy (though I've only skimmed most of it, the Ultramarines in that actually interested me so they're the only one's I've read completely). Someone else could provide a better analysis about these guys. All I can say is I doubt he'd be at much risk, but I don't see him as being completely safe as I do with Sanguinius, it would just take a hell of a lot of work to pull off corrupting him.

 

Mortarion: As already mentioned by others, Mortarion's betrayal really has a lot to do with feelings of shame, and as others have already covered it I'll mostly leave him alone. I will however say that had he actually succeeded in defeating his "father", I believe things might have been different. His fall to Chaos however actually came after he turned traitor though, so it's likely that had he not already opened himself to them through his betrayal, he might not have made the pact with Nurgle when his legion was trapped in the warp and dying to a pestilence. You never know, he didn't manage to hold out quite some time before making the pact, so I believe a few of the other primarchs might have also submitted had they been in the same situation.

 

Magnus: I haven't read Prospero Burns yet, so I don't know what they've done with Magnus' past (someone hinted he'd already made a pact with Tzeentch) and without that information I can't really say much, except that it's different to what I already knew of Magnus. Before the Heresy books, Magnus' fall was almost exclusively the fault of the Emperor, his actions in simply slapping Magnus on the hand and forbidding him from practicing sorcery, rather than actually sharing his knowledge of the Chaos gods with his son and the corruption that would take hold if he continued, as well as parts of his plan for fighting them, was the wrong approach to take. For someone like Magnus, "because I said so" just isn't reason enough to stop the pursuit. As we can see from Magnus' attempt to warn his father about Horus' betrayal, Magnus was indeed loyal to his father. Had Russ not been sent in to punish Magnus at his father's command, Magnus would not have turned to Chaos in desperation. Had the Emperor simply handled the situation better the first time round, he would have denied Tzeentch a pawn, a rather useful pawn that he himself could of held on to. Like I said, this is from information prior to the Heresy series, so don't go biting my head off because I missed something about Magnus being screwed from the beginning.

 

Horus: I could probably right a thesis on Horus, but as I've already covered with Dorn and Purturabo, it really is circumstantial with Horus. Without Erebus around to manipulate things, Horus probably would never have fallen. He wouldn't have ended up wounded by the particular weapon, or introduced to the lodges, and so on. He just didn't have it in him to fall on his own, he really needed a great deal of effort put in to set up the exact circumstances that could get him to fall.

 

Lorgar: Even without the new stuff about the inhabitants of Colchis being secret Chaos worshippers (or whatever, I haven't read anything after Legion), the fact that Lorgar had a need to worship anything at all was all it took. With the Emperor trying to stamp out religious dogma, of course he was going to give Lorgar the smackdown for promoting worship, and naturally Lorgar was going to look elsewhere for something to worship because that's how he is.

 

Vulkan: Don't know, maybe, maybe not. It's getting late and ... yeah, whatever.

 

Corax: See above.

 

Alpharius: Right, here we get to the point where I do my best to avoid whinging too much about that piece of garbage by Dan Abnett. It doesn't so much expand the background of the Alpha Legion as toss the existing stuff out the window and replace it with absolute bolloks. Alpharius was convinced that his legions methods were superior to those of the other legions, and as the youngest legion he yearned for the oppurtunity to prove himself and his troops to his brothers. He developed new tactics and command structures that promoted absolute independance in his troops, allowing them to operate even with a broken chain of command, using their own initiative. He even managed to plan a campaign that was so successful, not a single Alpha Legion casualty was taken. Rather than impressing his brothers, he was berated for wasting time and resources by Guilliman. Having been insulted, and with a burning desire to prove the worth of his legion, when Horus' betrayal was revealed Alpharius jumped at the oppurtunity to test his legion against fellow marines. The fact that he had already been kept with Horus for awhile and forged a bond with him solidified what camp he would end up in. Maybe if he hadn't felt the need to constantly prove the worth of his legion and received nothing but insults when he did, or if he'd instead been found by the Emperor and had formed a bond with his father, he might have stayed loyal. Maybe if the legion had been created earlier, rather than just a few decades before their primarch's discovery, Alpharius might not have felt the need to prove their worth to such an extent and could have followed the examples of his brothers instead of striving to be accepted for his own merits.

There was no Omegron, they weren't puppets to a xenos organisation and they weren't loyalists fighting for the enemy to save humanity in the long run. That stuff is a load of bulls--- and takes one of the most awesome legions and makes them one of the worst.

 

Sorry for drifting towards the end there, that took longer than I thought and I'm fairly tired, but yeah, I hope I got the point across that you can't view each primarch's potential to fall in a vacuum, and you can't expect any primarch who hasn't sided with Horus before the Heresy begins to side with him after they witness the horrors of Chaos, or to give themselves to Chaos. Before the Heresy, most of them have the potential to fall to Chaos if the circumstances make it impossible to resist, but once the gates are open, that's it, the horses are off and no more contestants can enter.

[Legatus]

Nice write up there. I want to add a few points on Dorn. While he may have shown pride in his accomplishments (or he may not have, the sources are sometimes conflicting on that matter), he did not really display any strong ambition to outdo his brothers or be the best at anything. The IF Index Astartes notes that while the Imperial Fists were often at the Emperor's side during the Great Crusade, and eventually were to accompany him back to earth, not once did Rogal Dorn himself ask for any favours or privileges. Add to that that his resolve was as fortified as any of his worldly constructs. Horus may have been the more accomplished general, but I don't think he had the indomitable will of Rogal Dorn. So I am very confident that, had Dorn been in the place Horus was, he would likely not have succumbed.

However, putting him in the place of Perturabo is a different matter. Unfair treatment for two hundred years can wear a man down. And would Dorn have suffered through that, I don't know how things would have turned out.

[Captain Rolunde]

Indeed, very well thought out post there Pariah!

 

I agree with most of what you put forth there.

 

In the end we all bring our own views and opinions to the table, so of course mine may differ a little here and there, but that doesn't mean I think any of what you wrote is "wrong."

 

In my view- (Man, this would have been easier if I had made notes while reading your post, haha)

 

I'll not address all of them, just the few that I thought maybe I had something worth saying.

 

 

:The Lion: he grew up in a forest that is pretty much a mirror image of the kind of dark wild chaos infested forests that can be found in WHFB. I think that as would also be the case with Russ, they both spent the pre-Emperor part of their life already somewhat aware of Chaos and ingrained the view that "Chaos = Bad" and neither was in a good position for Chaos to go after them. And as I said before, I also believe that although it might not always come across in the novels, Lion seems to be Fanatically loyal to the Emperor.

 

- I think the only way he really could have turned to Chaos was with how Mortarion actually did, if he Legion was trapped in the Warp and his men were all dying, he's trying to get to Terra to fight alongside the Emperor, he just might cut a deal with Nurgle for he and his men to survive long enough to get there.

 

 

:Fulgrim: I haven't read his book but from what I saw of him and his Legion in the first 3 novels, it seemed to me that he was heading down the path to Khorne.

 

- The ECs loved to fight and as I said from what I saw of them throughout the first books of the HH series, they seemed more and more focused on battle, fighting, killing their enemies and proving they are the best. Even to the point of wanting to fight other Astartes. They really seem to be developing a blood thirst.

 

So I think if they didn't pick up the Daemon weapon an go all "sex drugs and rock and roll" they would have instead gone all "blood and skulls of my foes!"

 

:Khan: with what you put forth for him, it as actually a bit of a surprise that Khorne didn't go ahead and go for him as well. I'm hoping we get a much better look at him in the books to come see we can get a better feel for him and what makes him tick.

 

:Russ: OK this may be a bit of a fan boy thing and I don't want to start a "who has the bigger Primarch" but it's pretty 'iffy'(IMO) on if Horus could have actually beaten Russ in combat. Now all that aside, either way I agree that if it did happen that upon meeting the Emperor he would then have recognised him as the true Alpha of the Primarch pack and followed him as he actually did.

 

:Dorn: .... well maybe again being a fan boy, but I really don't see Dorn turning under any circumstances. At best maybe again as with happened to Mortarion, although to me interestingly enough when he gets to the stage where be really seems to develop a thing for the Pain-Glove I do think he almost seems in danger of becoming a Slaanesh candidate.

 

:Sanguinius: Not an expert on BAs in 30k. Seems to be that although they were more cultured than the others, maybe the difference is that they developed the interest in art and such but where the ECs differ is that they went totally overboard on it. The ECs really seem to have an obsessive behavior, with their whole "be the best,be perfect at it" obsession. So where the BAs develop an appreciation for some of the arts, the ECs just go flipping nuts over it once they do.

 

- Also we see (or will see) Sanguinius directly confronted with Khorne's attempt to tur him and as we know we will not go.

 

:Angron: as he appears in the series is batcrap crazy and has a major personal grudge against E. If the Emperor had let him finish his business before taking him off planet things may have gone differently. Including the possible removal of the spikes!

 

:Mortarion: In Flight of the Eisenstein he seemed the least likely of the Traitors to me. As close as some people think the Lion was to falling I think Mortarion was that close to not falling.

 

re: Alpharius - Anyone care to shed more light on him and the Alpahs before he was retconned as a twinned xenos puppet?!

[Coryphaus 101]

Interesting post Pariah Mk.231. Just a few things.

 

You (and everyone else) forget that Mortarion had Typhus whispering in his ear. I'm sure he would have been a big influence on Mortarion's fall. And was there really no hope for Curze? What if he learnt that his visions could be changed? (I know, Dornian Heresy and you said it has no say but it's reasoning is logical) Likewise Sanguinis. You say he couldn't turn traitor then talk about his vast amounts of rage. Russ I think would turn traitor if he thought he could establish himself as the alpha male.

[Dinks]

Fantastic peice of writing Pariah Mk.231. :cuss

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Magnus could've been the new Emperor. Yes, he was not as powerful, but if he'd stayed loyal, I think he'd be next in line when it came to 'most powerful psyker' in the Imperium. Big E would've sat on his Throne, while Magnus would either be a) continuing his work on the Webway and eventually succeeding or b ) kicking major ass.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Once I saw just how much I had written, I didn't think anyone would actually read the whole thing. Thanks guys, made me feel good about the time I put into it (well, except near the end there where I just statred skipping primarchs).

 

@ Coryphaus 101: I guess I could have been a little clearer on the type of rage I could see Sanguinius falling into, not the blind bloodlust sort, more the righteous fury sort, directed in it's entirety towards the traitors. He'd see it as his purpose and pursue it with utter conviction until the end. And yes, I did actually forget about the role Typhus played, thanks for bringing that up. As for Cruze, without being able to actively prevent his visions from becoming reality, I really do believe the poor guy didn't stand a chance.

 

@ Captain Rolunde: I can't recall if Lion actually knew the beasts on Caliban were creatures of Chaos specifically, or if he was unaware and just saw them as monsters. If it's the former than you may be right that he'd already be guarded against the nature of Chaos. The latter could leave him open as I detailed (not a certainty, but it still leaves the potential). For Fulgrim, I can only go with the Index Astartes books for what happened to him, and they make it quite clear that the obsessive nature of Fulgim for perfection and new peaks is what was responsible for his eventual seduction, not the effects of some daemon sword, which I see as a rather cheap tool because someone felt not enough of a reason was given for him turning.

I agree about doubting whether Horus could have bested Russ had he found him first, but to be honest, the Emperor had to trick Russ to best him and Horus could have easily done the same.

Finally, with the Blood Angels, yes they're more cultured than the rest and that's exactly why I believe they were at similar risk to the Emperor's Children. It's not hard to fall from being cultured in decadence (just look at many of the upper classes dilatantes for prime examples), which then put's them on the path to Slaanesh. Their love for their primarch probably would have trumped their temptation, but again, there's still that potential.

As for the Alpha Legion, your best bet for learning about their background pre-Abnett is to get your hands on their Index Astartes entry, which still managed to maintain the mystery surrounding them while giving enough detail to satisfy ... and without telling the legion to "bite the pillow, because we're going in dry".

 

And of course, I accept that my views will differ slightly from how another reador might perceive the information, but I much prefer that over the notion of everyone being part of some giant hive mind and all receiving the exact same mental input ... it makes it more fun when we can discuss it like this. Thanks again for the comments and contributions.

[Jareddm]

Two points.

 

The first is in reference to Alpharius. To be fair, we still don't know how his story ends. The HH novels have made it clear that there's a difference between siding with Horus and turning to chaos, at least at the current time of the Heresy(approximately 4-6 years in). It's possible that the old portrayal of being under appreciated could now apply to Omegon. He's far more involved in the day to day operations of the legion than Alpharius, as he's constantly being embedded in the legion ranks. He's literally never earned a single ounce of praise for his tactics and operations in his name, only under the cloak of Alpharius. Chaos can use those emotions to get under Omegon's skin and cause contention between the two twins. While Alpharius kept his eye on the prize, Omegon starts to grow corrupted internally. This could eventually lead to a complete falling out between the two. Then later, when the true Alpharius(assumed) is slain by Guilliman, Omegon takes control of the legion, turning his back on the twin's original goal of ensuring chaos's destruction, and focuses on proving the greatness of himself and his legion.

 

I'm just trying to reconcile new background with old. Instead of applying Draigo's principle. For those who don't know, Draigo's principle states that when a new piece of background seems to contradict or cause confusion with previous background, the correct interpretation is always the one that personally angers you the most.

 

My second point is related to the Major Arcana Tarot theory of the primarchs, a theory i've championed on several occasions. One piece of the theory says that one of the missing primarchs may have been some sort of telepath, someone connected to the warp but with more understanding and emotion than Magnus, who was more about raw power of the warp. It's possible that this telepath primarch may have been able to guide Konrad Curze through his visions and keep him from being constantly tormented by them. This may have gone a long way in keeping Curze from falling.

[Sazabi24]

Curze could also have been fine if he had Crusaded alongside Sanguinius and Magnus, both of who also had visions of the future. It seems more like his self destructive properties were a product of his loneliness and inability to tell others about his pain. Had he had the chance to serve alongside others who saw visions of the future, he may have turned out very differently. Nostramo probably would've fallen anyways, unless he put a company of Terran Night lords in control of Nostramo.

[Jareddm]

Curze could also have been fine if he had Crusaded alongside Sanguinius and Magnus, both of who also had visions of the future. It seems more like his self destructive properties were a product of his loneliness and inability to tell others about his pain. Had he had the chance to serve alongside others who saw visions of the future, he may have turned out very differently. Nostramo probably would've fallen anyways, unless he put a company of Terran Night lords in control of Nostramo.

I don't feel Magnus would've cared enough to help Curze or even discuss visions with him. Magnus would most likely not have the patience to listen to Curze, and might even disregard it as ramblings of a madman whereas only he had TRUE visions. Sanguinius might have been able to help, but since we haven't really gotten any strong details about his personality, I'll hold my judgements on that.

[hashrat]

I would say Magnus was loyal to the end, being forced to turn only after Russ was so easily tricked into attacking Prospero.

 

Magnus tried his utmost to stop Horus turning, Horus chose to go along with Erebus, Magnus also obeyed the ruling at Nikea for a time, only going against it when left with no other choice At Nikea the Wolves were tricked into beleiving they had been attacked by the Sons, they were not!

Magnus forbade his Legion from engaging the Wolves enroute to Prospero, the Wolves were once more tricked, this time by Erebus into attacking Prospero, their actual orders being to return Magnus to Terra without bloodshed.

The Emperor was warned about Horus but chose to ignore Magnus, this is odd as at this instant (a moment after Magnus realised what he had done in regards to his treaties in the Warp) both him and the Emperor instantly knew everything the other knew, making it hard to explain why the Emperor didn't do anything about Horus.

 

Magnus was forced to act to save his legion from the Wolves who were unwittingly the agents of Chaos, even at the end he did what he did once more to save his legion, never intending to treat with Chaos.

 

You can pretty much pin the Sons turning traitor on Erebus and his puppet Russ.

Far as the Wolves go, they deserve everything they get from the Thousand Sons.

If Russ didn't have one of his "Russ smash!" moments, the Sons would have been loyal allies till the end, although they had suffered under the changer of ways, they still had the strength of will to overcome that, most legions fell whole heartedly and willingly into the embrace of Chaos, it is just plain wrong to suggest the same of the Thousand Sons.