big models coming from reserve

[The Unknown Father]

the question is simple but also I have never realised and I want to know if i´m right. some models like monoliths, vendettas, stormraven and I think that also land raiders are more than 6´ long so I think that they can´t come from reserve moving just 6´, (that is interesting for shooting for example)

 

another question but related with the previus one is about big flyers, for example, if a vendetta comes from reserve outflanking, it is legal to move just 6´ because the base is completely on the table even though part of the model is out? You have to "start your movement" from the begining of the model or from the begining of the flyer´s base?

 

Thanks

[ShinyRhino]

From the BRB FAQ:

 

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but

is unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)

A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

 

So if you want that land Raider to arrive from reserve via a board edge, you have to move it far enough to do so. Monoliths cannot even move on from the board edge using this ruling.

 

As for tall skimmer vehicles, the convention is that the ENTIRE model must be over the table to be legal. This is becuase you measure distances to and from the ull, and if part of the hull is outside of legal measuring area, you're doing somehting wrong.

[Toasterfree]

the lenth of a land raider from front to rear is exactly 6", so yes you can move on and stop 6" in and be fine... no issues here...

 

with the flyers is the base, not the models, so as long as the base is on with in 6" you are fine

[ShinyRhino]

with the flyers is the base, not the models, so as long as the base is on with in 6" you are fine

 

The FAQs would disagree with you:

 

IG FAQ:

Q. How do you treat the Valkyrie base for gaming?

Due to its height it seems that it is impossible for a

Valkyrie to contest an objective, or for troops to

disembark/embark normally. (p56)

A. Follow the rules in Measuring Distances in the

Skimmers section in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

with the following exception: For the purposes of

contesting objectives and embarking/disembarking

from a Valkyrie or Vendetta, measure to and from the

model’s base. For example, models wishing to embark

within a Valkyrie can do so if at the end of their

movement, all models within the unit are within 2" of

the Valkyrie’s base.

 

BRB Measuring to Skimmers rules:

 

MEASURING DISTANCES

Unlike other vehicles, skimmers have transparent ‘flying

bases’ under their hull. As normal for vehicles, distances

are measured to and from the skimmer’s hull, with the

exceptions of the vehicle’s weapons, access points and

fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer’s

base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a

skimmer, in which case models may move into contact

with the vehicle’s hull, its base or both.

 

Yes, if the base has moved 6", the unit can fire if allowed, but the entire model must be over the tabletop for it to be in a legal position. The Valkyrie/Vendetta kit might not allow such a move due to model size. You'll have to do some measuring on your own.

[SeattleDV8]

You missed one BRB FAQ

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base

is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on

friendly or enemy models? (p71)

A: Just the base itself.

[Toasterfree]

You missed one BRB FAQ

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base

is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on

friendly or enemy models? (p71)

A: Just the base itself.

:) thanks DV8. knew that i didnt miss that important facet.

[Morticon]

I believe ShinyRhino is right on this.

 

There was huge debate regarding skimmers moving on from board edge and whether or not they could do so without moving over 6". Consensus based on the FAQs were that they could not.

 

This:

 

You missed one BRB FAQ

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base

is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on

friendly or enemy models? (p71)

A: Just the base itself.

 

Has no bearing on how far a model has moved. Only if it is in terrain or not.

How far a model is moved is determined as the IG FAQ clarifies - as per skimmers - which is measured from the hull.

 

And you cant have any bits of the model hanging off the board!

[Toasterfree]

are the FAQs official rulings on anything?

 

and also for models with bases, what defines them if they are on the board or not? Cause if i wanted to, I could have my terminators face away from you and have their guns stick over the edge of the table, and if you say that ANY piece that hangs over the table would cause them to die, i would argue with you on that.

[SeattleDV8]

So the wing tip can be over enemy troops and impassable terrain, not testing for dangerous terrain, but if that same tip is over the table edge it is destroyed?

Inconsistant to say the least, you use the large oval base for where the skimmer is on the table. Not just some times.

 

FAQs are considered 'soft' by GW, which is rather silly in that they don't consider any of their rules important (the most Important Rule pg.2)

[Grey Mage]

I believe ShinyRhino is right on this.

 

There was huge debate regarding skimmers moving on from board edge and whether or not they could do so without moving over 6". Consensus based on the FAQs were that they could not.

 

This:

 

You missed one BRB FAQ

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base

is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on

friendly or enemy models? (p71)

A: Just the base itself.

 

Has no bearing on how far a model has moved. Only if it is in terrain or not.

How far a model is moved is determined as the IG FAQ clarifies - as per skimmers - which is measured from the hull.

 

And you cant have any bits of the model hanging off the board!

 

Id say if were only measuring the base for the location of the model when it comes to the terrain.... well, the board IS terrain, and nothing but terrain. So if the base is completely on the board then so is the Valkyrie.

[Hellios]

Not from a RAW perspective here but as someone who plays an Aircav list with 6 skimmers around the size of a Valkyrie at 1,500pts (With the abillity to field more in larger games.), if I'm forced to play on a 4 by 4 table doing anything but plonking my planes on the table is pretty much impossible if my opponent won't allow my wings to hang over the edge of the board.

[Toasterfree]

again tho, models with bases are defined as "fully" on the table if their whole base is on the table.

[Tanhausen]

Just for the record: a LR is more than 6 inches. IIRC it was 17 cm (6.69 inches), so I agree with shiny: you have to move over 6 inches.

[Jacinda]

For what it's worth, the old land raiders can move on just fine. They have the same foot print as the current models but are shaped such that they are wider than they are long. A conventional land raider should be able to move 6" forward and pivot 90 degrees, ending its move completely on the table.

 

Regarding flyers and skimmers ... if I am reading it all correctly, all measurements come from the hull except for anything that needs to be measured ... wouldn't it make more sense to flip the wording and say the hull only counts for line of sight and assaults?

[Morticon]

are the FAQs official rulings on anything?

 

and also for models with bases, what defines them if they are on the board or not? Cause if i wanted to, I could have my terminators face away from you and have their guns stick over the edge of the table, and if you say that ANY piece that hangs over the table would cause them to die, i would argue with you on that.

 

Yes they are! "Official House Rules"according to GW.

 

For models with bases (skimmers specifically excluded) a model occupies the area of its base. So the termy guns can hang off if the bases are on.

 

 

Just for the record: a LR is more than 6 inches. IIRC it was 17 cm (6.69 inches), so I agree with shiny: you have to move over 6 inches.

 

Which would mean LR cannot move on 6" (at least length ways)

 

Regarding flyers and skimmers ... if I am reading it all correctly, all measurements come from the hull except for anything that needs to be measured ... wouldn't it make more sense to flip the wording and say the hull only counts for line of sight and assaults?

 

All shooting and moving on the board would be done from the hull/weapon mount. So, its not for "anything" that needs to be measured. Psychic powers or FNP buffs would still be measured from the hull or base according to the FAQ

 

Not from a RAW perspective here but as someone who plays an Aircav list with 6 skimmers around the size of a Valkyrie at 1,500pts (With the abillity to field more in larger games.), if I'm forced to play on a 4 by 4 table doing anything but plonking my planes on the table is pretty much impossible if my opponent won't allow my wings to hang over the edge of the board.

 

Then you should be playing on a bigger table mate. You've got 4" between your models in vehicle squads. You can always choose which parts of the rules to ignore foryour sake of fun, just remember that you're ignoring parts of the rules for your fun.

 

So the wing tip can be over enemy troops and impassable terrain, not testing for dangerous terrain, but if that same tip is over the table edge it is destroyed?

 

 

No, not destroyed. You just not allowed to move it to that position.

[Morticon]

Id say if were only measuring the base for the location of the model when it comes to the terrain.... well, the board IS terrain, and nothing but terrain. So if the base is completely on the board then so is the Valkyrie.

 

 

You're right for the first part, but making an incorrect conclusion from it.

 

pg: 71 RB: Skimmers

 

"Distances are measured to and from the skimmers hull"

 

If you can measure to the wing and the wing is off the board, then part of your model is off the board.

 

again tho, models with bases are defined as "fully" on the table if their whole base is on the table.

 

Correct! (Apart from skimmers which have their own addendum to this!)

[DarkGuard]

I'd agree with Grey Mage and the others here. While I can see Morticon's point, I can also see evidence for Grey Mage's point. The main thing here is that you won't make friends following Morticon's point more than you would Grey Mage's point. B)

 

Also, not everyone can play on anything bigger than a 4x4. It comes down to facilities and what's on offer. My LGS doesn't have the space for 3+ 6x4s, but it can easily have 3-4 4x4s. When trying to cram in as many games as possible, the latter option is more attractive a proposition.

[ShinyRhino]

let me throw out some hypotheticals to this discussion:

 

A Valkyrie is placed on the table such that the base is fully on, but one wing hangs off the table edge by about 3". You fire a Blast weapon at the Valkyrie and after scatter, the blast center hole is squarely within that 3" section of wing that's off the table. Is it a hit, or a miss? The blast rules tell you that anything that scatters off the edge of the table misses. However, the blast is still full yover the hull of the target.

 

The board edge is also NOT terrain of any sort. If it were, drop pods could never scatter off the board edge due to Inertial Guidance. Not sure which direction that fact leans the debate, but it's a fact none the less.

[Seahawk]

If the wing is off the table and you want to fire a weapon from it...well how could you possibly do it? It's not on the table.

 

We've always played that you move move entirely on the board, no exceptions. That's clearly what the rules say...:)

 

The monolith is exactly 6" long (and a bit wider), so it can move onto the table. Or deepstrike...

[Toasterfree]

Yes they are! "Official House Rules"according to GW.

are you in their house? are the FAQs (as defined by GW) and OFFICIAL ruling on the books/issues themselves? or are they AS DEFINED by GFW soft rulings?

 

 

and if you are going to sit there with a micrometer and say that i am .0000000000000000000000000000034906723908760389758902347568902347 of an inch out and cannot do something, i am going to pick my toys up and move on...enjoy your lost opponent...

 

i think that for a valkyire the issue is moot since it is a fast vehcile, same with the SR...but for all purposes, the rules dont apply in some cases and not in others, thus if the hull counts for all things, the the hull cannot enter any terrain with out takign a test ( and in some cases not enter at all) and cannot be with in 1" of an enemy model....

so it applies in all or none. simple. it is a based model (unlike a speeder or a DE vehile eldar tank what not) that uses a stand. these have a clear base ergo....

[Morticon]

I'd agree with Grey Mage and the others here. While I can see Morticon's point, I can also see evidence for Grey Mage's point. The main thing here is that you won't make friends following Morticon's point more than you would Grey Mage's point. :P

 

Also, not everyone can play on anything bigger than a 4x4. It comes down to facilities and what's on offer. My LGS doesn't have the space for 3+ 6x4s, but it can easily have 3-4 4x4s. When trying to cram in as many games as possible, the latter option is more attractive a proposition.

 

 

Fair play on the necessity ! Which is why we can always change the rules to suit our local game environment as mentioned. But, we still have to be aware that we cant force others to play by the rules we create for our benefit.

 

On the first point however, DG, you said you agree with GM.

Can you say why or offer a new argument to support that, since I think his pov has been addressed. (ie: that irrespective of whether the base is or isn't in terrain it doesnt effect how measurement is done. So, the FAQ that Seattle referenced (and GM tried to support) doesnt support an argument for measurement of the unit onto the table.)

 

 

 

So far and in summary our arguments look like this:

 

FOR being able to move on the board with only the base of a flyer :

 

* Some tables/spaces are too small and therefore its difficult to play any other way.

* This FAQ:

Q: What part of a skimmer on a large oval flying base

is used to determine if it is in/on terrain or if it is on

friendly or enemy models? (p71)

A: Just the base itself.

 

AGAINST being able to move on the board with only the base of a flyer:

 

* The BRB telling us how skimmers are measured to and from, and clarifying with the IG Dex.

IG FAQ:

Q. How do you treat the Valkyrie base for gaming?

Due to its height it seems that it is impossible for a

Valkyrie to contest an objective, or for troops to

disembark/embark normally. (p56)

A. Follow the rules in Measuring Distances in the

Skimmers section in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

with the following exception: For the purposes of

contesting objectives and embarking/disembarking

from a Valkyrie or Vendetta, measure to and from the

model’s base. For example, models wishing to embark

within a Valkyrie can do so if at the end of their

movement, all models within the unit are within 2" of

the Valkyrie’s base.

 

BRB Measuring to Skimmers rules:

 

MEASURING DISTANCES

Unlike other vehicles, skimmers have transparent ‘flying

bases’ under their hull. As normal for vehicles, distances

are measured to and from the skimmer’s hull, with the

exceptions of the vehicle’s weapons, access points and

fire points, which all work as normal. The skimmer’s

base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a

skimmer, in which case models may move into contact

with the vehicle’s hull, its base or both.

 

* Various other irregularities occurring when the above is not upheld (as mentioned above by ShinyRhino:

A Valkyrie is placed on the table such that the base is fully on, but one wing hangs off the table edge by about 3". You fire a Blast weapon at the Valkyrie and after scatter, the blast center hole is squarely within that 3" section of wing that's off the table. Is it a hit, or a miss? The blast rules tell you that anything that scatters off the edge of the table misses. However, the blast is still full yover the hull of the target.

 

and as Seahawk noted:

If the wing is off the table and you want to fire a weapon from it...well how could you possibly do it? It's not on the table.

[pyroknight]

And now we all know why the Storm Talon looks like a box... if there are no wings and no tail, there is nothing to hang off the table edge.

[DarkGuard]

On the first point however, DG, you said you agree with GM.

Can you say why or offer a new argument to support that, since I think his pov has been addressed. (ie: that irrespective of whether the base is or isn't in terrain it doesnt effect how measurement is done. So, the FAQ that Seattle referenced (and GM tried to support) doesnt support an argument for measurement of the unit onto the table.)

 

Only in terms of actually playing the game. I wouldn't be too fussed about whether the tip of the wing is off the board or not, as long as the base is it's cool by me. If he wants to fire a weapon at that wing then that's cool as long as I can target that wing etc. And it's not like Grey Mage doesn't have a point, there is a quote that can be used to back it.

 

However, in pure RAW I'd agree with you, and I think the quotes you've given, plus the comments by ShinyRhino and others supports that. But I've always made a point that when we have something resembling a RAW inclusion to a debate to put myself in mind of how stringent I would be with it on the tabletop. With this one not so much, and I would happily play it Grey Mage's way.

[Myxx]

If skimmers measure from the hull, why all the talk about wings? A wing is not a hull, it's a wing. That's like measuring from the tip

Of the demolisher cannon to measure the move distance of a vindicator.

[Jacinda]

Sometimes weapons are mounted on the wings. Distances and LoS are taken from the weapon firing, not necessarily the hull. You are right about bits that are just wings and the like. It follows under The Most Important Rule and the Rule of Cool. Decorative bits that are not hull or any other important part of the model don't count. Work with your opponent to try and get it to fit and maybe let them fudge a bit, but there is no way a baneblade (for example) is going to make it on the board by moving on at combat speed.