big models coming from reserve

[The Unknown Father]

I found this, maybe it clarifies all:

 

http://www.ageofstrife.com/40k-rules/flyin...ulls-t5432.html

[Toasterfree]

That's like measuring from the tip

Of the demolisher cannon to measure the move distance of a vindicator.

actually you can do this, as long as the distance from where you started, and where you ended is 6 in.

[Myxx]

That's like measuring from the tip

Of the demolisher cannon to measure

the move distance of a vindicator.

actually you can do this, as long as the distance from where you started, and where you ended is 6 in.

 

Sure, you can. But it still isn't the hull...

[Toasterfree]

That's like measuring from the tip

Of the demolisher cannon to measure

the move distance of a vindicator.

actually you can do this, as long as the distance from where you started, and where you ended is 6 in.

 

Sure, you can. But it still isn't the hull...

as long as you measue from any point on the vehicle and move it the correct amount, the hull has moved the correct amount as well......

[SeattleDV8]

If skimmers measure from the hull, why all the talk about wings? A wing is not a hull, it's a wing. That's like measuring from the tip

Of the demolisher cannon to measure the move distance of a vindicator.

BRB FAQ

Q: Are a vehicle’s wings considered to be part of its

hull? (p60)

A: Yes.

[Hellios]

Not from a RAW perspective here but as someone who plays an Aircav list with 6 skimmers around the size of a Valkyrie at 1,500pts (With the abillity to field more in larger games.), if I'm forced to play on a 4 by 4 table doing anything but plonking my planes on the table is pretty much impossible if my opponent won't allow my wings to hang over the edge of the board.

 

Then you should be playing on a bigger table mate. You've got 4" between your models in vehicle squads. You can always choose which parts of the rules to ignore foryour sake of fun, just remember that you're ignoring parts of the rules for your fun.

 

 

I did say when I'm forced... My table at home is 8 by 12 and I'm happy to use that at 1,500pts with my Aircav although most others would not be pleased at 1,500pts. If I turn up an event however 4 by 4's are not that uncommon because they can stick more of those in a hall. Then I have no choice. Just one of the problems with playing a cool army that is a little bit different :'(

[HiveFleetEzekial]

If skimmers measure from the hull, why all the talk about wings? A wing is not a hull, it's a wing.

 

I think the above is a big part of the confusion over this. You're mixing up your technical terms here. What you're taking as the 'hull' is actualy the fuselage of an airial craft, not the 'hull'. A Hull is the outer most protective layer of a craft, which will include wings, tail, nose, aelerons, etc. As our own skin is the 'hull' of our body, so is the metal/fibre/plastic on a craft like these. You wouldn't try to claim our arms, legs, or head are not a part of our 'hull', when aiming for the central area (that's called a torso). So you can't do the same here. The Hull includes the entirity of the craft, not just the central body of it. Yes a Wing is a wing, but it's one componenet covered/protected by the hull. Yet nor is it a 'decorative bit', like an antenae or landing gear would be. What you (and so many others) want to claim is the 'hull' is called a fuselage. Which these rules make no mention of using.

 

 

(god I miss the old days of 2E... even with all the extra game length. At leasst the rules were practically spelled out 100% for you. :/ )

[thade]

Hi, all. It's been a while. <3 I hadn't planned on posting ANYTHING in this forum until July for various reasons which cannot be confirmed...but...

 

Just to be clear, nobody's suggesting actually refusing a player the ability to bring in a model from Reserves because it's forced into Reserves (e.g. Dawn of War) and can't fit on the table due to sheer size and max movement, right? Because, that would be kind of against the spirit of the game.

 

I think the implication is clear: that you're not allowed to hang a Rhino half off the table edge to squeeze him onto the table so you can last second grab an objective in a hard-to-shoot-you position, or something cheeky like that. It's not uncommon for an FAQ to both try and address something cheeky but fail at being thorough. Not only is this forum rife with examples...but we've even discussed this exact thing several times before. (Nobody mentioned the Search function, which I thought was polite. <3)

 

Anyway, ya, RAW's very clear here in this instance but not always functional. Use your discretion and enjoy the game.

[Venemox]

Id say if were only measuring the base for the location of the model when it comes to the terrain.... well, the board IS terrain, and nothing but terrain. So if the base is completely on the board then so is the Valkyrie.

 

 

You're right for the first part, but making an incorrect conclusion from it.

 

pg: 71 RB: Skimmers

 

"Distances are measured to and from the skimmers hull"

 

If you can measure to the wing and the wing is off the board, then part of your model is off the board.

 

again tho, models with bases are defined as "fully" on the table if their whole base is on the table.

 

Correct! (Apart from skimmers which have their own addendum to this!)

 

So, how about the New necron vehicle models (the scythes), which both have a large oval flying base and ARE NOT skimmers.

 

EDIT: I need to read more, and type less. This notion they were not skimmers was put into my head by a recent game where the gentlemen I was playing claimed such, and I only looked at their individual pages for mid-game ruling expediency. Their army list DOES list them as having the skimmer rule. I bear the fault of not looking into it further afterwards.

[SeattleDV8]

What?

Both the Doom Scythes pg. 50 and the Night Scythes pg. 51 are Fast Skimmers.

[Venemox]

What?

Both the Doom Scythes pg. 50 and the Night Scythes pg. 51 are Fast Skimmers.

 

Yes. I looked this up earlier this evening, and suddenly realized

A). I look like an :P hat, and

B.) I need to edit a post.

 

Thank you, DV8.

[Imperial Deceit]

Most of your Apocalypse sized models would never make it. Almost everyone I play goes with if the back of the vehicle is touching the table edge then your fine, understanding that some models are inadvertently just a little too long. This is not GW saying that unit cannot enter via reserves because it was designed too long, it is just them trying to create impressive looking models. For the absolute sake of being a rule Nazi: The IG FAQ says to measure from the base, The BRB FAQ says you must measure from the hull. The BRB also says that codex specific rules win against basic rules. Following that same idea, codex specific FAQs wing against basic FAQs. Ergo, you measure from the base. Further more, because of the rules that exist to prevent "modeling for advantage" the wings of the Valkyrie/Vendetta do not count as "hull", and so if they end up over dangerous/impassable/difficult terrain or off the board edge it doesn't mean anything, sense you draw LOS to and from the hull. Of course with 6th edition coming up, I could be totally wrong by next weekend. :)

[Venemox]

Most of your Apocalypse sized models would never make it. Almost everyone I play goes with if the back of the vehicle is touching the table edge then your fine, understanding that some models are inadvertently just a little too long. This is not GW saying that unit cannot enter via reserves because it was designed too long, it is just them trying to create impressive looking models. For the absolute sake of being a rule Nazi: The IG FAQ says to measure from the base, The BRB FAQ says you must measure from the hull. The BRB also says that codex specific rules win against basic rules. Following that same idea, codex specific FAQs wing against basic FAQs. Ergo, you measure from the base. Further more, because of the rules that exist to prevent "modeling for advantage" the wings of the Valkyrie/Vendetta do not count as "hull", and so if they end up over dangerous/impassable/difficult terrain or off the board edge it doesn't mean anything, sense you draw LOS to and from the hull. Of course with 6th edition coming up, I could be totally wrong by next weekend. :D

 

As a matter of precedence, the FAQ is only valid for its codex. So, the IG FAQ is only applicable to the IG units. Meanwhile, the FAQ mentioned addresses only the Valkyrie and Vendetta (so only applies to the Valkyrie and Vendetta) for the purposes of embarking/disembarking and contesting (thus, only applies to embarking/disembarking and contesting).

[ShinyRhino]

Most of your Apocalypse sized models would never make it. Almost everyone I play goes with if the back of the vehicle is touching the table edge then your fine, understanding that some models are inadvertently just a little too long. This is not GW saying that unit cannot enter via reserves because it was designed too long, it is just them trying to create impressive looking models. For the absolute sake of being a rule Nazi: The IG FAQ says to measure from the base, The BRB FAQ says you must measure from the hull. The BRB also says that codex specific rules win against basic rules. Following that same idea, codex specific FAQs wing against basic FAQs. Ergo, you measure from the base. Further more, because of the rules that exist to prevent "modeling for advantage" the wings of the Valkyrie/Vendetta do not count as "hull", and so if they end up over dangerous/impassable/difficult terrain or off the board edge it doesn't mean anything, sense you draw LOS to and from the hull. Of course with 6th edition coming up, I could be totally wrong by next weekend. :)

 

Except the FAQ entry that says wings do count as hull. Nice use of "ergo" though.

[striker8]

I have a hard time fathoming why anyone would even be arguing this whole subject unless they're trying to be a douche and screw people over for an easy win. GW has never claimed their rules were air tight and even tell you that you should modify them as needed to fit the situation just like this one. It's know as using a bit of sense over being a over competitive pedantic git.

 

So in this case you jus but the model on the board edge and say they moved 6" instead of arguing about it. It's known as playing in the spirit of the game, since letting people use their models is the whole point of the game.

 

If you're so caught up being competitive and measuring your manhood by winning by these kind of shenanagins you really need some help.

[nurglez]

Some people like to argue it because they like to have everything already sorted out, to stop potential issues happening during games.

 

My friends and I play that you need to move far enough to bring on all of the vehicle. None of us use a monolith or anything that can't fit on the table with its normal move. and when we play apocalypse if we were moving a baneblade onto the table we would move it as close to its maximum movement, and then next turn minus off the extra inch or 2 (or what ever).

 

Yes skimmers are annoying, especially the "flyer" types, they look impressive but the fact that the base foot print doesn't match the actual hull foot print is a pain in the ass (a blast weapon hits the wing, does it hit models underneath it?).

 

I can only hope and pray that GW make a slightly better version of rules, but we all know the chance of that...

[Imperial Deceit]

That really does seem like your best option, just go over any potential discreptancies with your opponent before the game. If someone is really that nit-picky about rules like that, I have to question why you are playing them. And don't say 'What about in a tournament?" Because in that case just ask a judge and deal with his ruling.

 

@Venemox: I know it only applies for those particullar units, the point I was making is the spirit of the rules, and how that FAQ gives a clearer example of what GW is actually going for. However it is almost 100% that a lot of the units that have this problem will end up as Flyers in 6th, and who knows what the rules for that will be.