Mordrak - Scout move?

[templarios]

Greetings,

 

Not sure if this came up but:

 

Can Mordrak give his unit the grand strategy scout move and use his deep strike during the scouting phase (pre-first turn)??

 

 

Thanks.

[RedemptionNL]

Whether or not Mordrak can be the target of Grand Strategy is already a point of small debate (technically, he can only be given the rule if he is alone without his Ghost Knights), but you defintely can't Deep Strike during your scout move.

[Toasterfree]

the scout move is for normal moves only

[DinoDoc]

Greetings,

 

Not sure if this came up but:

 

Can Mordrak give his unit the grand strategy scout move and use his deep strike during the scouting phase (pre-first turn)??

 

 

Thanks.

Assuming this were even legal, if the 6th ed rumors about DS and assault are correct why would you even care to do it?

[templarios]

I figured about the first turn requirement but I needed validation. Thanks.

 

6th is not out yet so I gotta work with 5th. But if it is true about assaulting then BOOOYYAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

[jamsight]

as long as he is on his own go nuts but he can't join units since he doesn't have IC and with no Eternal Warrior he is easy pickings for heavy weapons.

[nurglez]

The way I see it, assuming you could give his unit scout.

 

Mordrak has scout and is held in reserve to deepstrike.

after deployment, scout moves are made.

Mordrak deep strikes in first turn, and wonders if he has missed anything.

[dswanick]

The way I see it, assuming you could give his unit scout.

 

Mordrak has scout and is held in reserve to deepstrike.

after deployment, scout moves are made.

Mordrak deep strikes in first turn, and wonders if he has missed anything.

Scout in no way allows a unit to deploy from reserves prior to turn 2.

[Toasterfree]

modrak if held in reserves auto comes in on turn 1. i dont think he is saying that he is coming in off of scout, more or less saying that WHEN mordrak comes in with the scout rule hes like "....ummm :) i miss something?"

[dswanick]

modrak if held in reserves auto comes in on turn 1. i dont think he is saying that he is coming in off of scout, more or less saying that WHEN mordrak comes in with the scout rule hes like "....ummm :) i miss something?"

Right. But that's not the same thing as Scouts USR giving him the ability to Deep Strike in the pre-game scout movement.

[nurglez]

Maybe I should rephrase first turn to turn one, but that is what I meant, he misses the scout move as he is in reserve, and uses his special rule to deepstrike in turn one with no scatter.

[playedsincedaemonhunters]

Ill put this to rest quickly, Ghost knights cant recieve grand strategy, so unless your deploying him alone, which is a very bad idea. This can never happen, hes an upgrade character to the unit. IE he cant recieve the GS

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Mordrak and his FailKnights are a bad unit anyway. And yeah, they can't be affected by TGS, it actually specifies them (along with Henchmen) in the rules for it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Modrak might become a *very* interesting unit in 6th.

 

If you can assult after DS.

 

First turn DS anywhere you want, with no scatter, with Mordrak + 5 GKT + ICs, all piling into Assault. :P

[Valerian]

Modrak might become a *very* interesting unit in 6th.

 

If you can assult after DS.

 

First turn DS anywhere you want, with no scatter, with Mordrak + 5 GKT + ICs, all piling into Assault. ;)

 

If, and it's a big if, 6th allows assaults out of Deep Strikes, then Mordrak goes straight from "meh" to "auto-include" for anyone not playing Draigowing. His only real shortcoming now is the vulnerability to shooting that comes with his 1st turn strike into enemy territory.

 

Valerian

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Modrak might become a *very* interesting unit in 6th.

 

If you can assult after DS.

 

First turn DS anywhere you want, with no scatter, with Mordrak + 5 GKT + ICs, all piling into Assault

 

You burn a HQ slot, 400pts minimum (not including the TDA-armoured IC who is joining you), and all for seven models to show up Turn 1 with zero support. :P Yeah, clutch move right there. Stealth means precisely nothing at this point, as if you landed in terrain you risk Mishap, and if you Run to get into cover you aren't assaulting the enemy (the whole point of landing Turn 1 after all). Mordrak lacks Eternal Warrior, so all it takes is a single powerfist wound to get through his 4++ and poof, whole unit evaporates.

 

Assault off Deepstrike is dumb, but assuming it is true, you get way more mileage out of a full Terminator unit (costs the same), who can multi-assault more targets, are scoring, and can benefit from 'TGS' (re-roll 1's springs to mind). Using 'Psychic Communion' from either a cheap Inquisitor or a Grand Master (a cheaper and better one at that), you can bring on your TDA blob when you need it, and with support elements in place to capitalise on its arrival (ie getting Purifier fire support into the mid-field).

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

You burn a HQ slot, 400pts minimum (not including the TDA-armoured IC who is joining you), and all for seven models to show up Turn 1 with zero support. :tu: Yeah, clutch move right there. Stealth means precisely nothing at this point, as if you landed in terrain you risk Mishap,

AFAIK only impassable terrain forces a mishap and if you got at least 2 cells in your brain you won't place your "land without scatter wherever you want" squad in the sparse imp. terrain on the table. You can however place 50% of your squad directly in normal terrain. That means you'll be forced to take dangerous terrain tests but that's nothing to the sheer pretection buff you get (the chances of losing one of four models taking the test is quite slim if you consider the available 5++ save and the fact that Mordrak will most likely be one of these models and won't care much about losing a wound (which might spawn another Terminator). Good luck trying to get rid of a squad with 9 wounds minimum having a 2+ and 3+ cover save, Mordrak's ability to soak small arms wound and to spawn even more models.

 

Assault off Deepstrike is dumb, but assuming it is true, you get way more mileage out of a full Terminator unit (costs the same), who can multi-assault more targets, are scoring, and can benefit from 'TGS' (re-roll 1's springs to mind). Using 'Psychic Communion' from either a cheap Inquisitor or a Grand Master (a cheaper and better one at that), you can bring on your TDA blob when you need it, and with support elements in place to capitalise on its arrival (ie getting Purifier fire support into the mid-field).

Good luck pulling that off without scattering on the enemy unit and risking mishap. You'll have to deep strike within 6" to the target after all (and ALL of the models of your unit need to be 1" away of any enemy model [not an easy task with a unit mounted on large Terminator bases]. If you scatter away from your target you'll be left in the open getting by meltas and plasmas. And that's without considering enemy psy-defense and failed psychic tests. To sum it up you're better off just playing Mordrak and his Ghosts than to try make Termis/Palas fill the same roll which will both be unreliable, risky and cost at least as many points to make it somewhat viable (Grandmasters, Inquisitors, Scriptors + additional retinues and transports for them (as they can't be part of the deep striking unit in order to buff the deep-strike).

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

You burn a HQ slot, 400pts minimum (not including the TDA-armoured IC who is joining you), and all for seven models to show up Turn 1 with zero support. :tu: Yeah, clutch move right there. Stealth means precisely nothing at this point, as if you landed in terrain you risk Mishap,

AFAIK only impassable terrain forces a mishap and if you got at least 2 cells in your brain you won't place your "land without scatter wherever you want" squad in the sparse imp. terrain on the table. You can however place 50% of your squad directly in normal terrain. That means you'll be forced to take dangerous terrain tests but that's nothing compared to the sheer pretection buff you get (the chances of losing one of four models taking the test is quite slim if you consider the available 5++ save and the fact that Mordrak will most likely be one of these models and won't care much about losing a wound (which might spawn another Terminator)). Good luck trying to get rid of a squad with 9 wounds minimum having a 2+ and 3+ cover save, Mordrak's ability to soak small arms wound and to spawn even more models.

 

Assault off Deepstrike is dumb, but assuming it is true, you get way more mileage out of a full Terminator unit (costs the same), who can multi-assault more targets, are scoring, and can benefit from 'TGS' (re-roll 1's springs to mind). Using 'Psychic Communion' from either a cheap Inquisitor or a Grand Master (a cheaper and better one at that), you can bring on your TDA blob when you need it, and with support elements in place to capitalise on its arrival (ie getting Purifier fire support into the mid-field).

Good luck pulling that off without scattering on the enemy unit and risking mishap. You'll have to deep strike within 6" to the target after all (and ALL of the models of your unit need to be 1" away of any enemy model [not an easy task with a unit mounted on large Terminator bases]. If you scatter away from your target you'll be left in the open getting by meltas and plasmas. And that's without considering enemy psy-defense and failed psychic tests. To sum it up you're better off just playing Mordrak and his Ghosts than to try make Termis/Palas fill the same roll which will both be unreliable, risky and cost at least as many points to make it somewhat viable (Grandmasters, Inquisitors, Scriptors + additional retinues and transports for them (as they can't be part of the deep striking unit in order to buff the deep-strike).

[Gentlemanloser]

You burn a HQ slot, 400pts minimum (not including the TDA-armoured IC who is joining you), and all for seven models to show up Turn 1 with zero support.

 

You want a 175 point GKGM for TGS, right? Mordrak comes in at lower than that, taking into account only the single GKT you're guaranteed to get from him (ID aside).

 

Your T1 support are your long Range Psydreads / Shunting DKs / Shunting Interceptors, to tie up/supress the enemy. Alpha Strikes! :tu:

 

Mordrak lacks Eternal Warrior, so all it takes is a single powerfist wound to get through his 4++ and poof, whole unit evaporates.

 

And as he's not an IC, you stick the PF (whatever are left after you I6 Halberd spam) on the Ghosts.

 

Assault off Deepstrike is dumb, but assuming it is true, you get way more mileage out of a full Terminator unit (costs the same), who can multi-assault more targets, are scoring, and can benefit from 'TGS' (re-roll 1's springs to mind).

 

10 GKT can't come in Turn 1, and don't DS without Scatter. Oh and Mordraks unit is potentailly 9 Minis, and Mordrak himself is worth at least 2 NDH wielding GKT. On top of that, your 400 points of GKT don't give you TGS. Or Psychic Communion (which is on table from turn 1).

 

and with support elements in place to capitalise on its arrival (ie getting Purifier fire support into the mid-field).

 

Assuming you don't use TGS on Interceptors/PT NDKs, you use it on your Purifiers to give them Scout, and Scout thier Rhinos/Razors 12" to have them in position for your first turn strike.

 

Personally, I'd use TGS on Purgation Squads In Razors, to give them Scout and let the rest of your GKT in reserves to com ing in off thier TH, after Mordrak uses PC turn 2 to bring them in. :huh:

 

And Shunt your Interceptors/NDK turn 1 to pressure your opponent and support Mordrak.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

AFAIK only impassable terrain forces a mishap and if you got at least 2 cells in your brain you won't place your "land without scatter wherever you want" squad in the sparse imp. terrain on the table. You can however place 50% of your squad directly in normal terrain. That means you'll be forced to take dangerous terrain tests but that's nothing to the sheer pretection buff you get (the chances of losing one of four models taking the test is quite slim if you consider the available 5++ save and the fact that Mordrak will most likely be one of these models and won't care much about losing a wound (which might spawn another Terminator). Good luck trying to get rid of a squad with 9 wounds minimum having a 2+ and 3+ cover save, Mordrak's ability to soak small arms wound and to spawn even more models.

 

I'd still rather not take the risk. I use 'Sanctuary' a lot, and you'd be surprised how often people roll that 1, even on small squads.

 

With regards to hard countering, there are a number of things in the game which cost less than 400pts minimum and will eat Mordrak and his unit easily. You also have the additional problem of vehicle walls and good castling with ablative infantry (ie what everyone has been doing since Drop Pod armies existed), because you have no psycannons to open up a hole to get at more important things.

 

Good luck pulling that off without scattering on the enemy unit and risking mishap. You'll have to deep strike within 6" to the target after all (and ALL of the models of your unit need to be 1" away of any enemy model [not an easy task with a unit mounted on large Terminator bases]. If you scatter away from your target you'll be left in the open getting by meltas and plasmas. And that's without considering enemy psy-defense and failed psychic tests. To sum it up you're better off just playing Mordrak and his Ghosts than to try make Termis/Palas fill the same roll which will both be unreliable, risky and cost at least as many points to make it somewhat viable (Grandmasters, Inquisitors, Scriptors + additional retinues and transports for them (as they can't be part of the deep striking unit in order to buff the deep-strike).

 

With Mystics it isn't especially difficult to pull that off. Also, I'm quite happy to buy dirt-cheap scoring units that bring special weapons and cheap mech spam, as opposed to a gimmicky character and his gimped retinue (no psycannons sucks, bolters don't really do much on their own).

 

I was only really making a theoretical argument anyway. I don't Deepstrike Terminators, they function much better as a second wave behind a mech wall. I could of course do so, and make the requisite investments in Mystics, but for backfield disruption I prefer Outflanking Purifiers or Dreadknights. Deepstrike just isolates units so badly from the rest of your army, even if you do land without scatter and avoid Mishaps/Dangerous Terrain.

 

You want a 175 point GKGM for TGS, right? Mordrak comes in at lower than that, taking into account only the single GKT you're guaranteed to get from him (ID aside).

 

No, he doesn't. He is 200pts, and by definition you are wasting his abilities if you don't bring the full retinue, so he's actually 400pts.

 

Your T1 support are your long Range Psydreads / Shunting DKs / Shunting Interceptors, to tie up/supress the enemy. Alpha Strikes!

 

Where are the points for all that? You just blew 400pts on a single HQ unit, plus whatever you spend on the Librarian to accompany them (as many seem to do). You'll be lucky to fit in PsyDreads and the requisite Troop investments to score properly. Below 2k it is just not viable to field the Terminator blob, and when it does become viable (2k+), I'd rather field it than Mordrak+co.

 

And as he's not an IC, you stick the PF (whatever are left after you I6 Halberd spam) on the Ghosts.

 

If they are still alive. Remember, in order to keep spawning, you need to allocate wounds to Mordrak and fail his save. You also only can spawn a maximum of 3 additional Ghost Knights, before Mordrak is on his last wound. So, being generous, we would say you could tank damage for maybe 1-2 enemy Shooting phases, if that.

Demolisher cannon, mass melta, demo charges, TH+SS Terminators etc can all put multiple S8+ armour ignoring wounds on you, and all it takes is a single failed save against that kind of wound on Mordrak, and the whole unit disappears. Orks can throw a 20-30 wound powerfist into you for substantially less points, and bog you down for a long time (if they don't outright murder you).

 

10 GKT can't come in Turn 1, and don't DS without Scatter. Oh and Mordraks unit is potentailly 9 Minis, and Mordrak himself is worth at least 2 NDH wielding GKT. On top of that, your 400 points of GKT don't give you TGS. Or Psychic Communion (which is on table from turn 1).

 

Of course not, that is Mordrak's whole gimmick.

You only get the additional Ghost Knights from Mordrak suffering wounds, and if you miscalculate your allocation, he dies and the whole unit goes with him.

Mordrak does hit like a tonne of bricks (nemesis hammers are awesome), but he is still only 1 failed save against S8+, or four failed saves against S7 away from death. As I mentioned above, depending on how your opponent decides to handle the unit, you could lose them as early as their next Shooting and/or Assault phase.

 

The thing is, I don't need 'TGS' or 'Psychic Communion' until 2k anyway, at which point Terminator blob is a better investment. They score by default, they need zero help murdering most enemy units and mech walls, and whilst Outflank is a powerful tool, its not central to my strategy. Plenty of opponents plan for Outflank now anyway, with either refused flank or vehicle/chaff infantry walls (same way they deter assaults on their lines) I also don't really Reserve enough units to make 'Psychic Communion' a requirement. Again, like Outflank, its a great bonus, but I can get by without it just fine.

 

Assuming you don't use TGS on Interceptors/PT NDKs, you use it on your Purifiers to give them Scout, and Scout thier Rhinos/Razors 12" to have them in position for your first turn strike.

 

Which you don't have the points for, but sure.

Scout is going to leave them isolated for at least a turn, until the rest of the phalanx gets into the mid-field to support them. Removing a handful of Purifiers and a couple of Terminators isn't a huge ask for most armies, they meta for Marines after all. By the time the rest of the army catches up, its likely they are dead and you now have to function without them.

 

Personally, I'd use TGS on Purgation Squads In Razors, to give them Scout and let the rest of your GKT in reserves to com ing in off thier TH, after Mordrak uses PC turn 2 to bring them in.

 

Which again, you are unlikely to be able to afford. Also, Purifiers are a million times better than Purgators in that role.

 

And Shunt your Interceptors/NDK turn 1 to pressure your opponent and support Mordrak.

 

Non-Relentless psycannon, or two heavy flamers, yeah that sure is a lot of support. Also, stranding them in enemy lines without charging (Shunting prevents you charging) is just asking to be shot off the board. Again, you isolate segments of your army for the enemy to destroy piecemeal, weakening the core phalanx and burning a lot of points in the process. Also, with your investment in DK, you have little points for PsyDreads now.

[Valerian]

It looks like assault after Deep Strike is out, so that is off the table. However, I'm going to preserve my full assessment of Mordrak until after the full context of 6e + Errata/FAQs are released and understood. There just might be other factors that make his unit worthwhile, regardless the already noted drawbacks.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Gentlemanloser]

No, he doesn't. He is 200pts, and by definition you are wasting his abilities if you don't bring the full retinue, so he's actually 400pts.

 

Mordrak + 1 Ghost Knight. 200 + 40 points. You actually get it for 200 points total. If you subtract the cost of the Ghost you are (almost) guaranteed to get, Mordrak costs 160 points. With Extra stats and a MC NDH for free.

 

Where are the points for all that?

 

LoL. I don't play 400 points games. Do you? I have 1,600 points let to spend for 'all that'.

 

If they are still alive. Remember, in order to keep spawning, you need to allocate wounds to Mordrak and fail his save.

 

Did we just spend 400 points for Mordrak and 5 Ghosts, or not? Mordrak can't have a Halberd, nor can the free Ghosts. The 5 Purchased Ghosts have Halberds, and on your turn 1 Alpha Strike Assault, they kill the Power Fists. Or you stick the remianing Power Fists on *them*. No losses yet, as this is a turn 1 Alpha strike CC.

 

Obviosuly, you assign S4 CC Weapon wounds on Mordrak, to try to spawn extra Ghosts.

 

Demolisher cannon, mass melta, demo charges, TH+SS Terminators etc can all put multiple S8+ armour ignoring wounds on you, and all it takes is a single failed save against that kind of wound on Mordrak, and the whole unit disappears. Orks can throw a 20-30 wound powerfist into you for substantially less points, and bog you down for a long time (if they don't outright murder you).

 

Of course. Which I why I still think the Ghosts could be a reduced cost.

 

But really, you don't Turn 1 Alhpa Strike into CC next to a Demo. Unless you're multi-charging it and use Mordrak to smack it up.

 

The thing is, I don't need 'TGS' or 'Psychic Communion' until 2k anyway

 

2K games are standard. I was using that points total for all my discussions. I wouldn't use Mordrak in a Kill Team. :D

 

Which you don't have the points for, but sure.

 

Which again, you are unlikely to be able to afford.

 

Do you play 400 points games? I've still got 1,600 points left for them. :(

 

Also, Purifiers are a million times better than Purgators in that role.

 

No teleport Homer, and can't fit 4 special Wepaons in a Razorback, on a 5 man squad. Sure, you can buy 10 and CS them, but that over twice the price.

 

And we can't even afford the Purgation Sqaud. ;)

 

It looks like assault after Deep Strike is out

 

Where did you read that V? Up to last night, I'd not seen anything mentioned aobut it.

 

/sadpanda

[Stormshadow]

For 2000pts you get:

 

Draigo

 

Mordrak

 

5x ghosts: halberds

 

5x paladins: 2x MC-psycannon

 

5x paladins: 2x MC-psycannon

 

Raven: MM, TLLC

 

Raven: MM, TLLC

 

Dread; MM, TLAC

 

Dread; MM, TLAC

 

And that’s enough to tear through 6 tanks turn one. And Mordrak and Draigo will more than likely survive long enough to get into CC. In this case you have spent 200pts, or whatever, to transport Draigo and Mordrak into CC. And that is where this dream team what’s to be. That’s cheaper than a Land Raider and quicker. And also, you can kill a Land Raider with one melta shot. 5 terminators with 3+ cover save needs a whole lot of melta to kill.