Losing Faith

[Crimson Hawk]

It's happened. I've finally succumbed to Internet Hate. If I read one more thread, comment or blog post on any site slagging off GKs, I think I'll quit playing/painting them. I've been called a powergamer, band-wagoner and other names that deserve a :) emoticon.

 

And then there's the fluff- the terrible, atrocious fluff. My beloved Daemonhunters now are carving their names into Mortarion's heart and are all incorruptible, but some are moar incorruptible than others. When I bought the GK Codex (In September last year, I was late, I know) I hadn't really researched on the Internet, so that my first impressions wouldn't be biased. I'll admit, I knew that it was by Matt Ward, but the worst I expected was the GK being saved by the Ultramarines, or something similar. This was a whole new level of fail.

 

But I busied myself, bought the new models, carried on, and then it started. Wherever I go, Purifiers, Psyflemen & Draigo. And then the constant compaining that would inevitably follow. Now I'm a depressive, and I get more stressed about these little things than other people. So my question to you- does this sort of thing affect/annoy you? Or do you not care? And if you do, how do you deal with it?

[Toasterfree]

i dont really care. GK is my second army. here is what i get from my first...

 

you get everything for free...

long fangs are OP and undercosted...

stupid CA...

GH are op...

SW take no skill...

 

i keep this in my mind, something from back in the day (3ed): "the only army that isnt cheesy is the one that you play."

 

while people see what is out there that will work and be the best cost:effect:points units out there people are going to complain. most people fail to realize this, GK die the same way all MEQ armies do. and they are shorter range. sure if we get close then we wipe. being a mid table army its hard to beat, will not disagree. but even at 1850 i have less models on teh table with my purifier army than i do my SW army. and those numbers in my SW are better protected with transports and fire power than the GK.

 

just gotta go with the flow man. dont let it bother you, its just a game.

[Myxx]

hang on till 6th comes out, then everyone will play DA and Chaos and forget about GK being "over powered"

[Inquisitor Fox]

My army list has two Inquisitor HQs, retinues that aren't min-maxed, zero paladins, usually no purifiers, an Interceptor unit that is also designed to work with Kill Team...

 

Yeah.. if I have to deal with haters I point out I'm using an all pewter army that was new ten years ago and start pointing out my retinue figures that came from necromunda or other wierd oddball sets. Haters gonna hate, I'm here to have fun.

 

Ironically I don't run into too many issues. Then again I also have my Sisters stored in the same army case and my 40 some odd ISTs that I don't get to use any more, so maybe they believe me that it's not about the bandwagon for me :P My advice is try things that are wacky and fun. Mess around with units you wouldn't normally take or think about. If they're gonna whine and complain anyway, you might as well get to have fun.

[thade]

just gotta go with the flow man. dont let it bother you, its just a game.

This. A thousand times, this.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

It's happened. I've finally succumbed to Internet Hate. If I read one more thread, comment or blog post on any site slagging off GKs, I think I'll quit playing/painting them. I've been called a powergamer, band-wagoner and other names that deserve a :P emoticon.

Just wait until the Codex creep inevitably delivers a 6.ed Dex which is even more "broken" than the GK-Dex (CSM? DA with 14 pt. Tac Squads with 3 free Plasma Guns per 10 dudes?) and all the haters start slandering all the "Bandwagon" DA and CSM veterans which have been playing a former less than competitive Dex for years. Then it'll be totally fine and accepted by everyone to be a GK player.

 

And then there's the fluff- the terrible, atrocious fluff. My beloved Daemonhunters now are carving their names into Mortarion's heart and are all incorruptible, but some are moar incorruptible than others. When I bought the GK Codex (In September last year, I was late, I know) I hadn't really researched on the Internet, so that my first impressions wouldn't be biased. I'll admit, I knew that it was by Matt Ward, but the worst I expected was the GK being saved by the Ultramarines, or something similar. This was a whole new level of fail.

You got alot of options to deal with this:

a) ignore the new fluff (take your Codex and tear out the pages with fluff you don't like)

b ) focus on the few pieces of awesome (new) fluff in the Codex (Mordrak etc.) and build an army around them so you won't be reminded of the bad fluff surrounding models like Draigo or Crowe

c) Read "The Emperor's Gift" which makes the new fluff alot more bearable

 

But I busied myself, bought the new models, carried on, and then it started. Wherever I go, Purifiers, Psyflemen & Draigo. And then the constant compaining that would inevitably follow. Now I'm a depressive, and I get more stressed about these little things than other people. So my question to you- does this sort of thing affect/annoy you? Or do you not care? And if you do, how do you deal with it?

The beauty of the new GK Codex is that there are dozens of viable and competitive army builds and concepts in it. Just because the Internet is all Rage about Purifierspam, Corteaz Henchmen spam and Draigowing doesn't mean that you'll have to play them too. What about running a Ghostwing or any list focusing on Mordrak and the many concepts you can build using him? What about running a SS or GK Terminator-heavy midrange shooting list? What about running a balanced Hybrid list led by a generic Grand Master? People whine alot less when they realize that you're not simply running with the same hyper-competitive generic net lists everyone and his dog are using to get the max W/L-ratio. No you won't have an ultra army which easily wins 70% of all it's match-ups but you'll have a lot more interesting army to play which will still be competitive enough at Tournaments. All friendly and reasonable players will be OK with such lists and have no problem playing against them. All those guys which are still whining when playing against you are part of the "All new codices are OVAPOWARED! RAAAAGE! WHINE!"-bandwagon which rage about any new codex and should be ignored. Once the next strong 6ed. Dex hits they'll move on to slander their new target.

[adamv6]

What Ragnar said ^^^ +1

 

I get it at the local club and shop.

 

Then I take my army out and they see Purg Squads and Coteaz and no razorbacks, and Jokaeri (plural anyone?) and Mystiks, and boltgun Acolytes and they shut up for 5 minutes.

 

I love CSM players whinging at me, I remind them of the amount of EW they have and character who roll enough dice to sink a small frigate just to work out how many attacks they get in CC, and they shut up.

 

Bizarrely, the only players who don't whinge are Eldar and Nids.

[the jeske]

most people fail to realize this, GK die the same way all MEQ armies do

no they dont , because unstunable razors means a GK army fire power drops only when the razor/dread is blown up . to do that more fire power is needed. fire power that normaly , against other meq armies would be targeting marines . so no GK dont die like other marines.

 

. and they are shorter range.

with transports moving 12" and terminators being relentless , the "shorter range is important on 6x6 tables .

sure if we get close then we wipe. being a mid table army its hard to beat, will not disagree. but even at 1850 i have less models on teh table with my purifier army than i do my SW army. and those numbers in my SW are better protected with transports and fire power than the GK.

you know your making a very bad example comparing GK to another army of the big 3 to prove that they are just like any other army .

 

 

 

you get everything for free...

long fangs are OP and undercosted...

stupid CA...

GH are op...

SW take no skill...

and you want to tell me that fire spliting 5 hvy weapons units for sw are costed properly ? or that totems are costed properly . and skill doesnt matter when one army has plain better rules.

 

 

 

What about running a SS or GK Terminator-heavy midrange shooting list?

those lists are weaker then the main 3 with identical game play ? it would be like picking chaos sm over SW .

 

People while whine alot less when they realize that you're not simply running with the same hyper-competitive generic net lists everyone and his dog are using to get the max W/L-ratio

both armies will run the same psycannons , the same unstunable razors . only the support powers will be different [like any doa/drop pod/demon army will probably hate a SS army more then a puri one of example].

 

 

No you won't have an ultra army which easily wins 70% of all it's match-ups but you'll have a lot more interesting army to play which will still be competitive enough at Tournaments.

how is a SS bases mecha more interesting then cortez mecha or puri mecha ? or how is an army bases around termis different from an army based around draigo ?

 

 

Once the next strong 6ed. Dex hits they'll move on to slander their new target

dude if you think that the GK dex has the same power level the all the other 5th ed dex , including the nids then your are living in some totaly different world them me , where big euro and US tournaments have 25%+ GK armies attending.

[Vesper]

What the Jeske said plus :

 

I love CSM players whinging at me, I remind them of the amount of EW they have and character who roll enough dice to sink a small frigate just to work out how many attacks they get in CC, and they shut up.

 

Well, we have Abaddon and DP that have EW. We also have Fabius Bile, that don't have any invulnerable save or power weapon.

Lots of attack ? Joking ? Try to play a lord with mark of Khorne and daemon weapons. Then, get stunned 1/3 because of said weapon. And then, die. Or maybe you were thinking about Khârn... No EW buddy.

Let's say we have "many" attacks. You have force weapons on everything (and sometimes I6 for a cheap upgrade). But hey, since you play the no brainer, I guess you don't use that brain very often.

[Inquisitor Fox]

EVERYBODY COOL IT! This is not a thread about "please bash our Codex and tell us how it really is overpowered and the only reason we play it is because we want an auto-win", nor will I let this thread degrade to school yard name calling. Keep comments constructive and keep in mind that simply because some players in the world play a Codex because they perceive it to be easier to win with, many people do not.

[adamv6]

Vesper, Khan can eat a 200 point strike squad in 2 rounds. He doesn't need EW. Most armies have 1 EW character (Logan, Draigo, Avatar etc), you have 110 point HQs with EW, T5 and 4 wounds.

 

You have force weapons on everything

 

How many multi wound CSM are immune to them...

 

We also have Fabius Bile, that don't have any invulnerable save or power weapon

 

Fabius 160p - FNP, Fearless, Enhanced Warriors, an 18" A3 weapon that always wounds on a 2+ and the Rod of Torment, which caused ID regardless of toughness...

 

Crowe 150p - 4+ Inv, Fearless, gives squad furious charge and reroll hits in CC, a stormbolter, has Rending CC on 4+, no power weapon

 

Great example.

 

We can play this game all day long. I play Greyknights because I love the models and the admittedly dodgy fluff.

 

Ironically, the next army I want to collect is CSM:Nurgle, does that make me brainless :)

[RedemptionNL]

There's always going to be people that only see the 'OP' in every codex and disregard any balancing factors. Case in point, I play both Tyranids and Grey Knights and receive about equal flak about both of them, and I never play the hyper-competitive spamlists. Its almost always the same people that complain too.

 

Yes, the GK codex has some options that if spammed become unbalanced, mentioned in all its gory detail in the above posts. Just don't take them and enjoy your army. 6th edition is coming soon which might throw a spanner in works of codex balance, so at least wait that out before casting your final vote.

 

Oh and Jeske, it's Coteaz, not Cortez. I know he's in the Inquisition and all, but he's not Spanish. :)

[Vesper]

Vesper, Khan can eat a 200 point strike squad in 2 rounds. He doesn't need EW. Most armies have 1 EW character (Logan, Draigo, Avatar etc), you have 110 point HQs with EW, T5 and 4 wounds.

 

You have force weapons on everything

 

How many multi wound CSM are immune to them...

 

 

First off, you don't want me to compare Kharns cost efficiency with Corteaz' cost efficiency.

Then, like I said, Abaddon don't care about force weapons (but he is too expensive to be played under 2000/2500pts games). Then DP. You got something called "prefered enemy", isn't it ? After all, it's not like you don't have enough firepower to kill daemon princes.

EDIT : DP are at 130pts. The wings are mandatory.

[playedsincedaemonhunters]

Brother Knight, the best way to steel your heart against the constant temptation to bring forth the unbreakable cheese of the Brotherhood is this, bring your daemonhunter book to your gaming store and play it every once and awhile play it, either that or make a list without Venerables, Paladins, or purifiers or just take a small amount of them, like no more than 1 squad, your models still cost 20 pts base. they have balanced point costs but are very good in certain areas. When i catch flack for playing "Grey Knights" I point out that i own 40 old metal knights that i played back when they were STILL BAD ASS. that and i pla a Vorth Mordrak list...... 80% of people dont know he is, either him or stern, 95% Dont know who he is. and if all else fails i bring up the fact that i use storm ravens and that usually ends their rant.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

Vesper, Khan can eat a 200 point strike squad in 2 rounds. He doesn't need EW. Most armies have 1 EW character (Logan, Draigo, Avatar etc), you have 110 point HQs with EW, T5 and 4 wounds.

 

You have force weapons on everything

 

How many multi wound CSM are immune to them...

 

 

First off, you don't want me to compare Kharns cost efficiency with Corteaz' cost efficiency.

Then, like I said, Abaddon don't care about force weapons (but he is too expensive to be played under 2000/2500pts games). Then DP. You got something called "prefered enemy", isn't it ? After all, it's not like you don't have enough firepower to kill daemon princes.

EDIT : DP are at 130pts. The wings are mandatory.

 

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/6112/133590634423.jpg

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

^---lol

 

honestly, I only ever receive flak about my psyfleman, and since then, I only use one even in larger games. I honestly view GK armies, all of them as glass cannons. If you know how to beat them, then its easy. People with armies that cant compete just need to adjust and have a well balanced force, and plan their moves out better.

 

I remember my first time against a GK army was when I fought a driago wing with my templars. I'm a whole edition behind the curve with these crusading bad boys, and I still kicked that players ass since I knew how to beat draigo wing.

 

Stay mobile, meltas, vindicator, done. his 2 wounds didn't mean anything that whole game, and tabled by turn 4 with minimal losses on my side. if people complain, remember the previous example, a 4th ed codex beating one of the most competitive armies in the game. Heck, templars will be 2 editions behind as of june 23.

 

If people are calling you a bandwagoner, tell them to piss off. I've been called that before, and all I have to to is whip out my metal terminators and metal kasrkin, and tell them that they are 4 years old.

 

And if your being called a power gamer, well sure, make a competitive list, but stretching it to the extremes of unbeatability isn't fun if you win all the time. Introduce some of the less competitive elements that are just plain fun to use. Ive seen some people sweat bullets at the sight of my dreadknight teleporting towards them, and they aren't that competitive at 250 pts, but they sure are fun!

 

And read the Emperor's Gift, the new book, itll get you all excited to finish models, or play a game and run a new list. The main character wears an interceptor pack, and its interesting to read about him using it

[Stormshadow]

I’m happy to say that I have never had any trouble with this sort of thing.

 

I’ve been playing DH to log to be called a band-wagoner. I also mostly playa opponents that are experienced enough to see Grey Knights for what they are.

 

My advice is this. Try to find some grownups to play with. They are usually mature enough to not call people names. If you still receive unjust critic, play a game with them. When you are setting up, be sure to point out how your army works, and explain how he should use his army to counter this. Afterwards, offer to switch army’s and play him again. Gray knights often seem unbeatable because they are more or less made to counter the newest instant-win lists from the newer codex. Old school players with old school concepts often do the best against GK, and I like that. People running Razor spam, Thunder wolves or similar (and used to feeling superior) will get smacked on the nose by GK, and in return, call them names (what else can a kid do?). Older and more experienced players that have, for example, played the same DA concept since 2005 will stand a lot better chance. So just wait it out, soon people will be screaming as mush about Auto cannon dreads as they are about Nob Bikers, Biker council, the doom of malan'tai, Necron gods, Daemon Princes, Priests, Long fangs and blood crushers.

[*Furyou Miko]

Bleh, it's not like "bandwagoning" is limited to the Grey Knights.

 

I got accused of bandwagoning ("but he guessed it was OK, because girls need all the help they can get") by some random new kid when I bought my Necron codex. He then proceeded to ask me what the hell models I was getting out when I put my 1997 classic Destroyers down on the table.

 

I feel kind of bad. He was so embarrassed I don't think I've seen him in the store again since.

 

(I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about C'tan since the new book though. >> Wraiths, Scarabs and Mindshackle Scarabs, yes, but no-one seems fussed about C'tan...)

[nurglez]

I admit that I jumped to the new codex to play a paladin army, as I love low model count tough armies. This was before Draigowing became all the rage and I was shocked by how powerful they could be. I loath psyrifle dread's, and out of the 40+ games I have played with my Draigowing I have probably used them 4 times at the most, and regularly use a 260 point dreadknight (heavy incinerator, great sword and personal teleporter).

 

While I was painting up my Draigo in a gw store, there was a 12-14 year old kid painting his models next to me, and he told me, and I quote. "I hate you for playing Draigowing". This made me laugh and cry a little inside.

 

I've taken my Draigowing to 3 tournaments (including 2 Throne of Skulls events at nottingham) and when I start pulling them out I expect a groan, however people generally seem interested by them and my lack of psyrifle dreads helps this i think (I even got 2 best opponent/sportsman nominations at the last ToS I went to).

 

There are ways to play grey knight's without them being over powered or cheesy, same as any other army (well, almost any other army), the problem with grey knight's is that as they are cheaper to buy then other armies (generally, due to a higher point cost per model) a lot of people have started up a second or third army as them (especially Draigowing, 1500 points for around £100).

[RedemptionNL]

The problem with grey knight's is that as they are cheaper to buy then other armies (generally, due to a higher point cost per model) a lot of people have started up a second or third army as them (especially Draigowing, 1500 points for around £100).

This. People often mention the large number of Grey Knight players in tournaments as a testament of their 'overpoweredness'. The truth is, a lot of codexes can make very powerful builds. I think most people here remember the introduction of IG Leafblower lists, which is very capable of tableing a lot of opponents in 2-3 turns of shooting. People were spending more time setting up and removing their models than actually playing.

 

But these kind of lists are far less prominent in tournaments as they require an investment in multiple hunderds of dollars/euros/pounds of models to buy, and a equally large amount of time to paint. Not something everyone is willing to invest. Grey Knights are currently the cheapest way to get a competative army.

[Vesper]

That is a point, but we all know if tomorrow, the Orks get an instant win button, tournaments players will buy Orks, no matter the price. The price thing is only true for friendly gaming.

Why is the tournament scene dominated by IG, SW and GK ? Because it's cheap money-wise ? No. Is it easier to win with it / does it have more favorable match-up ? Yes.

 

EDIT : typos.

[Morollan]

That is a point, but we all know if tomorrow, the Orks get an instant win button, tournaments players will buy Orks, no matter the price. The price thing is only true for friendly gaming.

Why the tournament scene is dominated by IG, SW and GK ? Because it's cheap money-wise ? No. Is it easier to win with it / does it have more favorable match-up ? Yes.

 

I think those are very fair points. Money does play a part in it but it's by no means the major factor in most people's decision to play a particular army.

[RedemptionNL]

Oh, obviously. But if Grey Knights were at the same power level as they currently are, but would require the same investment of time and money other armies like IG, BA or SW have, do you still think we'd see 25% of the players in a tournament being GK, like the recent Adepticon?

[Morollan]

Oh, obviously. But if Grey Knights were at the same power level as they currently are, but would require the same investment of time and money other armies like IG, BA or SW have, do you still think we'd see 25% of the players in a tournament being GK, like the recent Adepticon?

 

Conversely, if GK were at the same power level as, say, Tyranids or Sisters, do you think they would make up 25% of the tournament?

[RedemptionNL]

Well no, that's why I said GK were the cheapest way to start a competative army. :P Tyranids and Sisters of Battle are on the other end of the spectrum, with somewhat uncompetative codexes and expensive to start due to all the metal/finecast models needed.

 

A better point would be, if BA/SW/IG/DE/Necrons, at their current power level, would be as easy to start as GK, would we see more of them? I would think so.