Grey Knights...

[TrashMan]

They used to be mighty psykers, each and every one of them ..... now they are only latent psykers and have to focus trough a librarian to do anything.

 

They use to create their own protective mental/psychic wards, now it seesm they relay only on the wards on their skin and armor.

 

The greatest of them used to be able to kill even great demons with a single hit from their Nemesis weapons - now their nemesis weapons don't seem any more effective then normal power swrods. (with the exception of Draigo apprently)

 

They used to have shrouding - now they have to smear themselves with blood of Sisters to avoid detection.

 

They used to be truly incorruptable - now it seems it isn't the case.

 

 

They used to be cool, emperor-blessed warriors, but they seem so less now. They even get killed by a bunch of people with primitive spears.

 

 

And before someone mentions Draigo - I don't have a problem with Draigo. Some poeple take the "carving of his name" a bit too literaly. I don't. And I don't care if he did carve his name in a demon. If anyone could do it, the greatest of the specialized anti-demon warriors should.

And before you say "but he's fighting a demon primarch!", remeber - DEMON. It doesn't work to his advantage when facing +10 vs. demons weapons. Frankly, I think a normal primarch would fare better than a demon primarch agaisnt Grey Knights. And wihout knowing the details of the battle, crying "it's impossible" is pointelss, no?

 

Too much? Mary Sure? Anyone forgeting Calgar, Maphiston, Tigris, Grimmnar, etc, etc... Every chapter has it's own super-ultra-badass.

[Brother Nihm]

Welcome to the land of Retcons.

While I agree that some of them are silly, they are far from being the worst retcons GW has made over the years.

 

remeber - DEMON. It doesn't work to his advantage when facing +10 vs. demons weapons

Because the fighting prowess of a Primarch, much less a Chaos/DAEMON fuelled Primarch is below that of a GK, any GK?

 

And wihout knowing the details of the battle, crying "it's impossible" is pointelss, no?

The same goes for saying it is possible, which I think is the problem that some players have. That and the "fluff track-record" of the guy who wrote that particular bit.

 

It is all subjective.

[Brother Tyler]

And keep in mind the fact that the "old" fluff about them all being psykers was a retcon. Originally, only the elite of the Grey Knights were psykers while the majority did not have any psyker powers.

[*Furyou Miko]

I actually went through some of this in my head a while ago when people were talking around the new GK book on the Necron forum, and came to this conclusion;

 

 

GK would be a lot more balanced if NFWs weren't Force Weapons (they were just Force Weapons Against Daemons). As it is, the ability of any model in that army to one-shot any other model in the game just takes the piss.

 

The problem isn't so much that Ward made the Knights' rules match their fluff... it's that he sucks at implementing his fluff.

 

Take Crowe for example. The whole idea of a badass swordsman who relies on pure skill instead of using fancy magic weapons is awesome. The idea of a knight of purity who wields an evil sword, but doesn't allow himself to be corrupted by it is awesome. Trying to combine both concepts on one character? You need a shoehorn scaled to a dreadknight.

 

Draigo, the Grand Master, Elite of Elites, Badass of Badasses, who was raised to power when he single-handedly defeated a Daemon Primarch. That's... completely freaking ridiculous, but if it wasn't so Mary Sueish, it would also be pretty awesome.

 

Draigo, the Lost Champion, who is cursed to wander hell in eternal damnation but, through supreme efforts of will, can return for short periods to save the world in its hour of need is a cool concept. A little repetitive by this point (The Legion of the Damned are basically the same thing), but not an inherently bad idea.

 

Draigo, the Master Tactitian who can always direct the best units in his army to the best location, and uses unorthodox tactics to sweep victory from the hands of the enemy (because seriously, Paladins scoring? Scoring units are meant to be the ones who can stay there, dig in, and hold that objective, while the Paladins' job is to sweep enemiesout of the way so the regular troops can secure it) isn't original (CREEED!), but again, it's an awesome character concept and it's nice that he's not the warrior equivalent of a squishy wizard for a change.

 

Draigo, the Complete Badass Who Rules The Chapter But Only Sometimes Shows Up And Had To Be Promoted In Absentia Because He Was Stuck In Hell, And Can Make Everything Do Exactly What He Wants It To... Well done, Ward. You've managed to make the literature equivalent of kedgeree. Haddock is nice. Creamy rice is good. Boiled eggs are pleasant. Trying to combine them all in the same dish just leaves you with something bland and tasteless that can't decide whether it's yellow or white and thinks it might like to be spicy at some point.

[Ring-around-the-roses]

In relation to Draigo, i just choose to believe that he was having a 'Possessed by the Spirit of the Emperor' moment. If SoB can turn into Saints purely through belief in the Emperor, and a little divine attention, then it doesn't seem to far a stretch to believe the Emperor decided to spank one of his sons through a intermediary, be giving him a power upgrade. I mean, the Emperor can effect things in the Warp, as far as I know, as his spirit still exists in it. May be controversial, but i just wanted to give the idea a push out there. Sorry for any disgruntlement it causes ;)

 

I really can't rationalise the rest of his fluff yet, unfortunately. Will work on it though.

[Gentlemanloser]

They used to be mighty psykers, each and every one of them ..... now they are only latent psykers and have to focus trough a librarian to do anything.

 

Er no.

 

Every Squad has thier own Psychic Powers. Not only that, they can also activate Force Weapons.

 

They use to create their own protective mental/psychic wards, now it seesm they relay only on the wards on their skin and armor.

 

Again, the old 'Shrouding' used ot be focuses through thier Aegis suit.

 

The greatest of them used to be able to kill even great demons with a single hit from their Nemesis weapons - now their nemesis weapons don't seem any more effective then normal power swrods. (with the exception of Draigo apprently)

 

Wrong again. ;) Daemonbane. Makes up for the loss of Daemonic Instability and all Daemons gaining EW.

 

They used to have shrouding - now they have to smear themselves with blood of Sisters to avoid detection.

 

That attrocious bit of fluff has nothing to do with Shrouding. It's just an aweful bit of fluff that is supposed ot show the lengths GK will go to combat the Dameonic.

 

They used to be truly incorruptable - now it seems it isn't the case.

 

Nope. Still utterly incorruptable. Sadly, it seems that there's one who even more uncorruptable than the rest. Infinty +1 eh? :D

 

They used to be cool, emperor-blessed warriors, but they seem so less now. They even get killed by a bunch of people with primitive spears.

 

Thanks for you opinion, but I find it baseless and incorrect.

[Morollan]

@TrashMan - I'm not actually sure what the point of your post was? What is it that you are trying to get across?

[Oiad]

Trashman mate, your vitriol for the chapter is admirable but I wouldn't be surprised if this thread rubs a lot of members up the wrong way.

 

Anyway to some of your points:

1. Have to agree with Brother Nihm on his 'Welcome to the Land of Retcons' remark, while Brother Tyler brings up a good point about their RT days too. It's a shame that they felt he had to compensate the rules by altering the fluff on their psychic capabilities but after a year or so to get use to it all, it doesn't seem too bad. They still have some top talents and at least they're not petty rogue-psykers who end up constantly killing themselves.
   
2. I don't believe much has changed about how they protect themselves. Their psychic might is still used to power the Aegis, which in turn protects them from the cruelties of the warp, etc, IIRC.
   
3. Were you talking about the rules or the fluff in regards to the daemon-killing? By tabletop - all models have daemonbane so there's still the minor possibility of any GK killing a daemon. As for the fluff, we just had the 'Emperor's Gift' come out and *spoilers* show how a team of five Interceptors took on a Bloodthirster and won with only the loss of one knight. */spoilers*. That's still very boss by my book.
   
4. I'm pretty sure the Shrouding was turned into a Librarian-only power for game-engine reasons. As such, I wouldn't take it too harshly. Besides, all GKs get HH, Insta-death and sometimes a third power by default instead.
   
5. I've always viewed the Sororitas part in the Bloodtide as one of their willingness. The planet was doomed and there weren't many options left. It is a silly story but I think the writer is really into pushing the whole grimdark notion here, to show how bleak situations can get and the sacrifices needed to overcome them. It's a prominent aspect throughout the codex and explains why the Grey Knights have become quite a sinister organisation.
   
6. The Incorruptibility thing - really funny subject. Some people read the new codex and come out of it thinking GKs are more incorruptible than ever, stating that the writer overdoes the point. Then there are others who think that because of the Bloodtide story that the GKs are all Khorne-worshipers now. Not to stick up for some of the writing that's led to this but there has been somewhat of an over-reaction by some fans too.
   
7. Primitive spears? Is this coming thanks to Ben Counter's 'Grey Knight Trilogy'? If so I really wouldn't worry about it. The book's supporters maybe very vocal on some boards but there are also a lot of GK players who dislike those books - heck, I'm one of them! Besides GK's have been killed by all sorts within the fluff. Off the top of my head, the Sororitas have managed to show them up on a couple of occasions and now the Space Wolves too. But then everyone (apart from the Space Wolves it seems) gets butchered from time-to-time. It feels inevitable that these stories were going to creep out for GK eventually too. Brutality hand-outs all around? - Thanks 40k!
   

+EDIT+

 

That'll do for now.

[TrashMan]

remeber - DEMON. It doesn't work to his advantage when facing +10 vs. demons weapons

Because the fighting prowess of a Primarch, much less a Chaos/DAEMON fuelled Primarch is below that of a GK, any GK?

 

It is still a demon. And thus all the anti-demon abilities of a GK come into play.

And as any battle goes - luck is always a big factor. Otherwise, no great warrior would ever fall, or would ever make a mistake.

 

It's not as simple as X is stronger, so he wins.

 

 

And wihout knowing the details of the battle, crying "it's impossible" is pointelss, no?

The same goes for saying it is possible, which I think is the problem that some players have. That and the "fluff track-record" of the guy who wrote that particular bit.

 

It is all subjective.

 

Why wouldn't it be possible? There are ways to weaken demons. Heck, saying it's True Name is enough to have a demon crumple to the floor, weak like a baby.

Then there's also things like the Emperors intervention. So yes, very MUCH possible.

 

 

 

EDIT:

Also, please keep this discussion constrained to the fluff, not boardgame rules.

GK one-shoting everyintg, or being one-shotted by anything was not the point of hte thread.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

...was not the point of the thread.

 

There was a point...?

[TrashMan]

The greatest of them used to be able to kill even great demons with a single hit from their Nemesis weapons - now their nemesis weapons don't seem any more effective then normal power swrods. (with the exception of Draigo apprently)

 

Wrong again. ;) Daemonbane. Makes up for the loss of Daemonic Instability and all Daemons gaining EW.

 

 

Waht part of "fluff, not boardgame" is difficult to understand?

 

If the novels they hack and slash on their enemies with their weepons multiple times and can't kill the thing (the fallen saint) even when tehy whack it on the head.

 

 

They used to have shrouding - now they have to smear themselves with blood of Sisters to avoid detection.

 

That attrocious bit of fluff has nothing to do with Shrouding. It's just an aweful bit of fluff that is supposed ot show the lengths GK will go to combat the Dameonic.

 

If hte Shrouding hides them, then what need is there for blood to hide from demonic detection?

 

 

 

They used to be truly incorruptable - now it seems it isn't the case.

Nope. Still utterly incorruptable. Sadly, it seems that there's one who even more uncorruptable than the rest. Infinty +1 eh? :D

 

Seems to me it is hinted that they can be corrupted, onyl it's detected early on and...elimited with extreeme prejudice.

 

 

Thanks for you opinion, but I find it baseless and incorrect.

 

GK novel. A TERMINATOR gets killed by a bunch of primitive soldiers with middle-age weaponry.

[Ragnar_Blackmane]

GK novel. A TERMINATOR gets killed by a bunch of primitive soldiers with middle-age weaponry.

Wrong. I've started reading the Omnibus again some time ago and the medieval cannonfodder killed a single knight of squad Santoro: A common power armoured Grey Knight (strike) squad. A powerful chaos sorcerer manages to kill a single Terminator a few pages later (thanks to awesum magicks).

[Gentlemanloser]

Er, so you're only interested in a 'fluff' discussion?

 

Go take up your gripes with Ben Counter...

 

I'll go back to reading about 10 Marines slaughtering hundreds of Thousands of Tyranids.

 

Fluff has little bearing on in game performance, and it *totally* at the whim of whatever writter is doing the work.

 

Also, can you point out where in all the 'fluff' your gripes aobut Force Wepaons, etc are? As far as I remeber, GKs cna use the Liber Daemonica to banish Greater Daemons, *just by speaking thier name*.

 

Now if that isn't bad-ass enough for you, I'm not sure what is.

 

They used to be mighty psykers, each and every one of them ..... now they are only latent psykers and have to focus trough a librarian to do anything.

 

What fluff is that?

 

They use to create their own protective mental/psychic wards, now it seesm they relay only on the wards on their skin and armor.

 

Agian, what fluff are you refering too?

 

The greatest of them used to be able to kill even great demons with a single hit from their Nemesis weapons - now their nemesis weapons don't seem any more effective then normal power swrods. (with the exception of Draigo apprently)

 

Where in the fluff are NFW described? And described as being no more use than a Power Weapon?

 

They used to have shrouding - now they have to smear themselves with blood of Sisters to avoid detection.

 

Fluff?

 

They used to be truly incorruptable - now it seems it isn't the case.

 

Alaric *was* corrupted. No new GK has ever been.

[Vesper]

In relation to Draigo, i just choose to believe that he was having a 'Possessed by the Spirit of the Emperor' moment. If SoB can turn into Saints purely through belief in the Emperor, and a little divine attention, then it doesn't seem to far a stretch to believe the Emperor decided to spank one of his sons through a intermediary, be giving him a power upgrade. I mean, the Emperor can effect things in the Warp, as far as I know, as his spirit still exists in it. May be controversial, but i just wanted to give the idea a push out there. Sorry for any disgruntlement it causes :D

 

I really can't rationalise the rest of his fluff yet, unfortunately. Will work on it though.

 

The Emperor's spirit is in the Emperor's carcass.

In fact, there's two ways to rationalise the Draigo problem. Frist, it can be a legend. "Ye, you know, we have this draigo guy who is the king of the warp. Yes, he's alone in there, don't ask me why, but that's what I've been told". In fact, he's only here when there's a big fight, so who can know if he destroyed everything in the warp ? What are the real sources of such affirmations ? I see none -> legends.

 

Or maybe it's true. Then, there is the only explanation of draigo being the toy of the Chaos gods. After all, he is in the warp, their relm where they are unmatched, they can do and undo everything at will because they are the warp. So, I think draigo is just a guy they let live just to laugh big time and have fun with him thinking what he's doing is meaningful when it's utterly pointless.

 

About carving the name and such, it just makes no sense. Yes, we don't know how the battle is going, but in battle, you don't carve names. Then, a GK turning superpissed to death "I WILL KILLYOU BWHAHHAHA", drooling and stuff, it just don't really feels GK to me. It feels ridiculous, though.

[TrashMan]

About carving the name and such, it just makes no sense. Yes, we don't know how the battle is going, but in battle, you don't carve names. Then, a GK turning superpissed to death "I WILL KILLYOU BWHAHHAHA", drooling and stuff, it just don't really feels GK to me. It feels ridiculous, though.

 

Figure. Of. Speech.

Zorro also "carved his name" in many thing. It was jsut a roughly Z-shaped slash.

 

And yes, you can carve your name in an enemy, prividing an opportunity arises (enemy knocked out, weakened, taken by surprise, etc..)

[Gentlemanloser]

The Emperor is present in the Warp, otherwise the Astronomicon wouldn't work, and non of the imperium could used warp flight.

 

There are also Sensei, but I've a feeling Thawn is supposed to be one of those. :D

[TrashMan]

Er, so you're only interested in a 'fluff' discussion?

 

Go take up your gripes with Ben Counter...

 

I'll go back to reading about 10 Marines slaughtering hundreds of Thousands of Tyranids.

Fluff has little bearing on in game performance, and it *totally* at the whim of whatever writter is doing the work.

 

Aaaaand?

If you don't care about fluff but only about the game, what are you even doing here?

Get with the progam or vacate the thread. It's as simple as that.

 

 

 

They used to be mighty psykers, each and every one of them ..... now they are only latent psykers and have to focus trough a librarian to do anything.

 

What fluff is that?

 

GK novel

 

 

 

The greatest of them used to be able to kill even great demons with a single hit from their Nemesis weapons - now their nemesis weapons don't seem any more effective then normal power swrods. (with the exception of Draigo apprently)

 

Where in the fluff are NFW described? And described as being no more use than a Power Weapon?

 

GK novel.

For the "most powerfull weapons in the galaxy", I was utterly unimpressed reading how they hacked and slashed and bludgeoned a fallen saint for half an hour and still weren't close to killing it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Your thread *never* specified 'fluff only' in your OP. And frankly, you OP has no point bar a semi informed rant anyway.

 

GK novel

 

I've read them. You'll need to be more specific, or agian, you have no point.

 

Your opinion is baseless, and frankly unsubstantiated by existing fluff, and rules.

[Vesper]

The Emperor is present in the Warp, otherwise the Astronomicon wouldn't work, and non of the imperium could used warp flight.

 

There are also Sensei, but I've a feeling Thawn is supposed to be one of those. :P

 

It's not his spirit, it's just the echo of him as a being. That is why if he dies, the Astronomicon turns off.

 

Figure. Of. Speech.

Zorro also "carved his name" in many thing. It was jsut a roughly Z-shaped slash.

 

And yes, you can carve your name in an enemy, prividing an opportunity arises (enemy knocked out, weakened, taken by surprise, etc..)

 

So GK have the time to do petty things like carving things in other things. Elite of the elite, indeed.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not his spirit, it's just the echo of him as a being. That is why if he dies, the Astronomicon turns off.

 

Spirit/Echo, he still has a presence int he Warp.

 

And who's to say *how* much power or infulence his Spirit/Echo actually has...

[Morollan]

About carving the name and such, it just makes no sense. Yes, we don't know how the battle is going, but in battle, you don't carve names. Then, a GK turning superpissed to death "I WILL KILLYOU BWHAHHAHA", drooling and stuff, it just don't really feels GK to me. It feels ridiculous, though.

 

Figure. Of. Speech.

Zorro also "carved his name" in many thing. It was jsut a roughly Z-shaped slash.

 

And yes, you can carve your name in an enemy, prividing an opportunity arises (enemy knocked out, weakened, taken by surprise, etc..)

 

He didn't just do a flick of the wrist and leave a Z-shaped hole in someone's shirt. He carved his forebear's frikkin' name "upon Mortarion's rotting heart". And that's not something you can really do without first pummeling the living crap out of him so that he's senseless and unable to resist.

 

Mortarion. Primarch. Immortal. 10,000+ years old Daemon Prince. Yeah, that guy.

 

Do me a favour!

[RedemptionNL]

He didn't just do a flick of the wrist and leave a Z-shaped hole in someone's shirt. He carved his forebear's frikkin' name "upon Mortarion's rotting heart". And that's not something you can really do without first pummeling the living crap out of him so that he's senseless and unable to resist.

 

Mortarion. Primarch. Immortal. 10,000+ years old Daemon Prince. Yeah, that guy.

 

Do me a favour!

 

That depends how you interpret it. Nowhere does it actually state he knocked Mortarion unconcious and started scrimshawing him with his Nemesis force blade. Could be anything from carving in a metaphorical sense (making sure he'd never forget) to using a psychic power to do it (a wizard did it!).

[Vesper]

Oh god, please guys. It's Ward. We ALL know it's pretty literal.

[Morollan]

He didn't just do a flick of the wrist and leave a Z-shaped hole in someone's shirt. He carved his forebear's frikkin' name "upon Mortarion's rotting heart". And that's not something you can really do without first pummeling the living crap out of him so that he's senseless and unable to resist.

 

Mortarion. Primarch. Immortal. 10,000+ years old Daemon Prince. Yeah, that guy.

 

Do me a favour!

 

That depends how you interpret it. Nowhere does it actually state he knocked Mortarion unconcious and started scrimshawing him with his Nemesis force blade. Could be anything from carving in a metaphorical sense (making sure he'd never forget) to using a psychic power to do it (a wizard did it!).

 

Well, doing it via a psychic power would, if anything, be even more impressive and there is nothing to suggest that it was a metaphorical carving. How would one carve one's name on a heart metaphorically anyway? Suggesting that it is anything other than what it says in the codex is realy grasping for straws to defend the indefensible.

[Antarius]

Sticking to the "fluff" part, I don't get how anyone can have a problem with a Terminator being killed by a mob, while simultaneously not having a problem with the Draigo/Mortarion debacle. I mean, either "anything can happen" or it can't (not to mention that the first scenario seems infinitely more likely in the first place...).

 

I'll also echo Vesper and say I detect no hints at all of the heartcarving business being anything but literal. It's pretty standard Ward "awesome with a side dish of supermegaawesome and awesomesauce!!"-fare.