Grey Knights...

[number6]

@TrashMan: The Ben Counter novels are, IMHO, risible pieces of utter trash. :) They are also a bit aged at this point, and GW is quite fond of revisiting and revising its fluff, so you have to take "canon" with a massive grain of salt.

 

Are BL novels "canon"? Or not? I for one, have never considered anything but what's in the rulebooks to be "canon". Especially when I don't like it. :lol:

[*Furyou Miko]

Spears vs Terminator Armour?

 

I can believe that.

 

Everyone knows that the best way to kill a terminator is with a mob of thirty gretchin. Those primitive spears are no better or worse than a space marine's combat knife in real terms. Both have a good chance of just plain shattering on terminator armour, but if you get that one lucky blade that slides into the cooling vents and jams up the fan (since, you know, terminator suits have a massive bank of cooling vents each side of the spine on the back) and boom.

[Jacinda]

Waht part of "fluff, not boardgame" is difficult to understand?

The boardgame IS fluff. If it were not then we would have fewer debates over what the rule wordings mean. Every rule has a blurb of fluff tied to it and you can not mention one without the other tagging along for the ride.

[NoLifeKing]

This thread makes the emperor cry and hurts my brain.

[Crimson Hawk]

There are also Sensei, but I've a feeling Thawn is supposed to be one of those. ;)

God, I never noticed that, but it makes perfect sense (here's hoping they will reintroduce them in 6th edition fluff)

 

On topic;

 

 

But seriously? If you don't like the new fluff, ignore it. Don't use Draigo, or Crowe, or Derpknights, or whatever it is that annoys you. Don't read the fluff in the Warddex, if you don't want to. The best way to not get riled by something is to pretend it doesn't exist ;)

[TrashMan]

Wrong. I've started reading the Omnibus again some time ago and the medieval cannonfodder killed a single knight of squad Santoro: A common power armoured Grey Knight (strike) squad. A powerful chaos sorcerer manages to kill a single Terminator a few pages later (thanks to awesum magicks).

 

 

HM..I just double-checked. You are right. It was a regular power armor. Still, it's spears.

 

 

 

He didn't just do a flick of the wrist and leave a Z-shaped hole in someone's shirt. He carved his forebear's frikkin' name "upon Mortarion's rotting heart". And that's not something you can really do without first pummeling the living crap out of him so that he's senseless and unable to resist.

 

Again, any proof it's not just a figure of speech? If not, then you are projecting.

 

 

Mortarion. Primarch. Immortal. 10,000+ years old Daemon Prince. Yeah, that guy.

 

Wasn't he at one point almost beaten by a few Space wolves?

 

And again, why the frank not? Stranger things have happened in 40K. Mortarion is not invulnerable, nor is he all-knowing or all-powerfull. He can be hurt. He can be beaten.

 

It's pointless to yell "It's imnpossibilible!" wihoit knowing the specifics.

 

 

Well, doing it via a psychic power would, if anything, be even more impressive and there is nothing to suggest that it was a metaphorical carving. How would one carve one's name on a heart metaphorically anyway? Suggesting that it is anything other than what it says in the codex is realy grasping for straws to defend the indefensible.

 

Actually it is you who are grasping for straws to attack.

Why is your claim that it isn't a figure of speech any more valid than his claim that it isn't?

[Gentlemanloser]

Becuase *everything* else written in Draigo's entry, same entry, same writer, is literal.

 

He's not 'figuratively' in the Warp. Nor did he figuartively burn down those gardens. Those are *all* literal accounts of Draigos exploits.

 

Why on earth would the writer sneak a figurative description into the start of his literal work? Makes no sense that.

[Morollan]

Well, doing it via a psychic power would, if anything, be even more impressive and there is nothing to suggest that it was a metaphorical carving. How would one carve one's name on a heart metaphorically anyway? Suggesting that it is anything other than what it says in the codex is realy grasping for straws to defend the indefensible.

 

Actually it is you who are grasping for straws to attack.

 

You're the one claiming it's a figure of speech with nothing to back it up. The codex says what it says. If you feel it means something else it's down to you to prove it. I have no inclination to go about proving a negative. Feel free to knock yourself out though.

[the jeske]

It's pointless to yell "It's imnpossibilible!" wihoit knowing the specifics.

last time GK tried to take out something on that level they required 6 brotherhoods on armagedon . draigo "soloed" Mortarion and that is after Mortarion killed the Grand Master before Draigo. It would be like an imperial guardsman killing Khârn in a melee fight.

 

the part about him destroying personal stuff of chaos gods with 0 repercusions is even better.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or that now, all the Daemons, and the Gods, fear him...

[Vesper]

Highly doubt it.

To quote myself :

In fact, there's two ways to rationalise the Draigo problem. Frist, it can be a legend. "Ye, you know, we have this draigo guy who is the king of the warp. Yes, he's alone in there, don't ask me why, but that's what I've been told". In fact, he's only here when there's a big fight, so who can know if he destroyed everything in the warp ? What are the real sources of such affirmations ? I see none -> legends.

 

Or maybe it's true. Then, there is the only explanation of draigo being the toy of the Chaos gods. After all, he is in the warp, their relm where they are unmatched, they can do and undo everything at will because they are the warp. So, I think draigo is just a guy they let live just to laugh big time and have fun with him thinking what he's doing is meaningful when it's utterly pointless.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or he's an avatar for the Emperor. B) As mentioned above.

 

Also, I don't think the GK are the type of folk who like to make up legends. ;)

[Vesper]

They are the type who carve names. So making up legends is ok to me.

Still crappy fluff. I hope Ward don't do the Chaos dex, don't want Abaddon to sneak into the palace just to pee on the golden throne.

 

EDIT : Avatar for the emperor ? No actual proof of that. Would the emperor carve names ? Would the emperor wander pointlessly in the warp ? Face it. It makes no sense, because Ward's writing skills are those of a six years old.

[Gentlemanloser]

Indeed. No disputing that. :(

 

But. (And there's always a but)

 

The Emperor has an 'obvious' presence in the warp. It's hinted that he could become a new 'Chaos' God when he dies, and it's only the Golden Throne keeping him alive that's stopping this. It was an original part of Ciphers backstory IIRC, probably retconned witht he recent HH books though.

 

On top of this, Draigo is made from the gene-seed of the emperor himself. Much like the Primarch and Custodes that came before him.

 

Couple the Emperors presence in the warp with Emperors Gene-seed, the Psychic Prowess of GKs, the undisputable, er, prowess of Draigo himself and it's not unreasonable to draw the conclusion that in order to perfomr these outlandish feats int he Warp, things *no* mortal should be capable of, that Draigo himself is tapping into his connection to the Emperor and syphoning off, or being granted, a fraction of the Emperors considerable psychic prowess.

 

Either that, or Draigo has become the first Daemon Prince of the Warp God Emperor. :D

 

Blood and Souls for my Lord Emperor!

[Vesper]

The GK are rumoured to be from the emperor. The only presence of the emperor in the warp is the astronomicon. Just like every other psykers, they echo in the warp as shining lights. The emperor has a big light, but it's not his spirit. It's like every other psyker. Then, when they die, psykers are consumed by Chaos. The emperor becoming something when he dies is pretty much outdated. So I guess we'll have to wait for BL to flesh the emperor a bit. But at this moment. The emperor is nothing more than a beacon. And when he dies, the beacon turns off, and so do the imperium. The end.

[Gentlemanloser]

The only presence of the emperor in the warp is the astronomicon

 

That's not stated as fact. :P It's assumed his only presence is the astronomicon.

 

But at this moment. The emperor is nothing more than a beacon. And when he dies, the beacon turns off, and so do the imperium. The end.

 

Again, that's one possibility, and the worse case scenario for the Imperium.

 

But it's not the only posibility, and not the only supported possibility.

 

Thawn seems to be a Sensei, Dragio is more powerful than a Daemon Prince, and can match himself with Daemonic Primarchs *and* the Chaos Gods themselves.

 

Then there's always the Terminus Decree... Why would the self destruct button for the entire Imperium be given instructions for use, if there wasn't to be some sort of phoenix rising form the ashes?

 

The Empreror was precognative. Even with the blanket surrounding the HH, he would have had plans in place. ;)

 

The GK are rumoured to be from the emperor.

 

Were rumoured. Now, it might as well be accepted as Canon. ;)

[Vesper]

The GK are rumoured to be from the emperor.

 

Were rumoured. Now, it might as well be accepted as Canon. :P

 

Source ?

 

Thawn seems to be a Sensei

 

Seems to be ? Well, the inquisition treat those as mutants and heretics. So it makes no sense.

 

Dragio is more powerful than a Daemon Prince, and can match himself with Daemonic Primarchs *and* the Chaos Gods themselves.

 

As far as I know, Draigo didn't managed to banish Mortarion, even when he could carve things on him. Pretty ridiculous. Then, in the warp, it just couldn't really happen without the Chaos gods being ok with what he was doing. So he was tricked and the Chaos gods are making fun of him.

[Hellios]

Fluff has a number of sources of marines being killed by guys with pointy things. Normally you have a bunch of guys and it is luck/numbers. Like a marine charging into 50 rebels with auto-guns... all it needs is that one lucky shot where a guy wasn't even aiming to do it but ends up shooting through the helmet lens and into the space marines brain.

 

I can't remember who it was but someone on this board declared that 'The heart of Mortarion' is just the name of a Nurgle baneblade :P. I'm going with this until this bit of fluff goes away. Seriously how did Draigo beat Mortarion so badly that he had time to carve his name into the heart but bot so badly that Mortarion's body didn't just go poof into the warp. Oh and depending on whether Mortarion had been banished/killed before... Draigo's anti-daemon techniques may not have been as affective against Mortarion as they would have been against a standard daemon.

[Morollan]

The only presence of the emperor in the warp is the astronomicon.

 

I'm a bit rusty on this but isn't the Astronomicon generated by the psykers in the Adeptus Astronomica and the Emperor merely guides it?

[Vesper]

I can't remember who it was but someone on this board declared that 'The heart of Mortarion' is just the name of a Nurgle baneblade ;).

 

I just fell in love.

 

Morollan, you are right, my bad.

[Gentlemanloser]

Source ?

 

GK Dex. If you want page numbers that will have to wait til I get home. ;)

 

Seems to be ? Well, the inquisition treat those as mutants and heretics. So it makes no sense.

 

Do they? There's been no mention of Sensei in the rules since the original RT version of them. And well, Thawn is immortal, more immortal than a SoB Saint, and now also part of the emperors flesh and blood. He also seems to have some precognition as well.

 

And as part of the martial arm of the Inquisition, also sanctioned as well. Like Draigo. :)

 

As far as I know, Draigo didn't managed to banish Mortarion, even when he could carve things on him. Pretty ridiculous. Then, in the warp, it just couldn't really happen without the Chaos gods being ok with what he was doing. So he was tricked and the Chaos gods are making fun of him.

 

That's not the way it's written though sadly.

 

The Chaos god are *scared* of him, and he slaughters massive amounts of them, with no repurcusion. Not only that, he kills *favoured* daemons, and desecrates unholy shrines.

 

Of all 4 Gods.

 

There's no way he's being made fun of.

[Vesper]

He's in the warp. Everything he does is instantly undone, because the warp is the very realm of the chaos gods, and they shape it at will. That's what happens when fluff collides. Draigo is just a fool who fights a pointless battle without any other repercution than the laughter of the gods. That looks like something the Chaos gods would do, no doubt about it.

[Gentlemanloser]

six sister, the chosen handmaidens of Slaanesh <snip> he scattered the Daemonettes' dismembered remains

 

Rarely now did Daemons haunt Draigo's footsteps. The Grek Knight had once time and again proved his utter resistance to corruption, and had left so many thousdands of slaughtered Daemons in his wake that now only the most crazed of Khorne's minions continued to seek his death.

 

the Dark gods could not vanquish Draigo

 

Sure, everything he does, in time, returns. But he utterly curbstomps everyone and everything in his path. laying all the Chaos Gods, their plans and minions to waste.

 

He combats and stops Dameonic plans everywhere he goes. He is undefeated, and performing the impossible in the realm of the impossible.

 

That anything could exist in the Realm of Chaos, yet be utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods, was a fresh impossibility in a doamin riven with the impossible.

 

Utterly immune to the will of the Chaos Gods.

 

They aren't making him do anything, or laughing at what he does...

[Vesper]

Sure they are. he can't kill daemons per se. Their essence always go back to a more powerful one, or to their respective god. Ergo, what he's doing is absolutly pointless.

[Gentlemanloser]

In no way is it pointless...

 

The chaos gods have plans, goals and purposes.

 

Draigo stops each and any of these he comes across. Thorughout time. For the rest of time.

 

He is th eultimate spanner in thier works, and a frustration they are not only scared of, one they cannot stop.

 

With every plan ruined (that might have taken decades or more of planning), with every minion dispersed, the Chaos Gods beaten. They are not ammused, nor laughing.

 

They were not laughing when Draigo delivered Jostero and foiled the plans of N'kari. And that is but a single example.

 

Now, don't get me wrong. As presented, Draigo is *far* to powerful. Which is why he can only be some sort of manifestation of the Emperor. There's no other reasonable explaination.

 

But to claim he's a puppet of the Chaos Gods, is downright absurd.