Grey Knights...

[Vesper]

There's now way he can outsmart the gods. Proof is : there's still plenty of sucessful daemonic incursions, and there are everyday in the whole 40k galaxy. Where was Draigo when the traitor legions broke the cadian gate once and for all ? His war is a trick. He's trapped in his petty crusade (the codex says the god can't stop him, GK perspective). Truth is : why would the gods want to kill a fool that is fighting in vain, and even if he leaves the warp from time to time just come back in it, thinking he's doing something good.

Tzeentch is, no doubt, pretty ok with everything draigo did. Its more likely serving his cause very well.

[Gentlemanloser]

He's only one man, can't be everywhere at once.

 

And he *def* outsmarted them on Jostero. Unless you want to assert that every failure, every setback the Chaos Gods have suffered is all a joke to them, or all part of a plan.

 

It's obviously not. Well, unless we're siding witht he Deus Ex Machina that is Tzeench, as everything that ever happens can be hand waved away as part of his big plan. Which is just a boring yawn fest.

 

As for the clrification on Gene-Seed. Page 7;

 

Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor's own flesh and soul.

 

So here we have some of the flesh and soul of the Emperor, physically transported into the Warp. The realm where the Soul of the Emperor resides...

[Vesper]

My bad on the geneseed. It's from the new codex, right ? Before, it was just a rumour, IIRC.

 

And he *def* outsmarted them on Jostero. Unless you want to assert that every failure, every setback the Chaos Gods have suffered is all a joke to them, or all part of a plan.

Most likely. That's why they abandoned Horus to his fate.

 

It's obviously not. Well, unless we're siding witht he Deus Ex Machina that is Tzeench, as everything that ever happens can be hand waved away as part of his big plan. Which is just a boring yawn fest.

Sad but canon. And not that yawnfesty. An omniscient god of trickery and such is pretty awesome. It may be the best of the four.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nah, it's boring.

 

Horus killed! All part of the plan.

The downfall of the Eldar and the birth of Slannesh! All part of the plan.

The emergence of the Tau (rumoured to be immune to the warp). All part of the plan.

The Necrons! All part of the plan.

Tyranids eating everything and having no presence in the warp! All part of the plan.

Draigo beating 7 kinds of brick dust out of everything Chaos! All part of the plan.

Me kicking Tzeentch in the nuts! All part of the plan.

 

/yawn

[Vesper]

Do you realize that even being all "just as planned", Tzeentch is still a fantastic asset to the lore ?

He's awesome -_- .

[Gentlemanloser]

He's awesome if he has the capacity to be stimed. Even if it's rarely.

 

Otherwise he's worse than Draigo. -_-

[*Furyou Miko]

No, he's awesome because even though he can be defeated, he has a contingency plan that required being defeated to work. Tzeentch is awesome because he's cunning and intelligent and tricky. Draigo is unbeatable because he's a super special shiny snowflake boy. Tzeentch is unbeatable because his very nature is that of a logic puzzle: Because his goal is to plan and scheme, destroying his plans and schemes just lets him accomplish his goal by coming up with new ones that make the ones you wrecked insignificant. He wins because he loses. That is why Tzeentch is awesome.

 

David Xanatos is to Tzeentch what Draigo is to the Emperor, with the main difference being that Xanatos is interesting because he has human desires and ideals as well and has a damn sense of humour.

 

Plus, a thirty xanatos pileup is always fun to watch.

[Gentlemanloser]

No, he's boring becuase he's not inteligent, nor cunning.

 

He knows everything, and every deafeat is ctually just another part of his plan to win.

 

/yawn

 

No matter what you do, how trying it is, how much of a sacrifice, how close a victory you snatch form defeat.

 

It's all utterly meaningless, becuase it went *exactly* the way it's planned, and you lose anyway.

 

/boring

 

There *needs* to be the potential, the possibility to actually win. To do something that Tzeencth didn't predict, and can't just roll into his plan. Otherwise everything is ultimatley futile, and there's no drive or desire to do anything.

[Vesper]

Why would you want to beat Tzeentch ? That's exactly what he wants you to try. But no matter what you do, even if you don't want to play his game, he always win. He is the god of "Nice try, I win".

You just can't compete with a being that planned everything, every possibility, every nuance of everything. That's what he's doing. That's a full time job, needless to say.

[Gentlemanloser]

Which is why he's utterly boring.

[Vesper]

Well, he's the Architect of Fate. Fate may be boring, but it's fate.

Edit : still don't understand what you'd want to do against Tzeentch.

[Gentlemanloser]

Fate isn't boring when you can avoid it. :D

 

Or change it. Or influence it.

 

The Norns and thier scissors.

[Vesper]

As long as you think that cause lead to consequence, you believe in fate, and you can't avoid it. Don't be a silly teenage smartass like "ye, freewill man, so cool".

[shortysl]

Draigo is just a fool who fights a pointless battle without any other repercution than the laughter of the gods.

 

To stand in the face of overwhelming odds is what the Grey Knights do. Chaos can never be destroyed while a single human lives, yet still they stand, because it's the right thing to do. The Samurai called it Rectitude; to strike when it is right to strike. To die, when to die is right.

 

Besides, with the unstoppable advance of the Hive Fleets, all battles are ultimately pointless, yet still everyone continues to wage their wars. Even the Night Lords.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not if the Hive Fleets are carrying Codex Tyranids! ^_^

 

It would only be pointless if we all lol'ed ourselves to death! :lol:

 

(Soz 'nids players! /hugs)

 

As long as you think that cause lead to consequence, you believe in fate, and you can't avoid it. Don't be a silly teenage smartass like "ye, freewill man, so cool".

 

Predestination sucks.

[shortysl]

Not if the Hive Fleets are carrying Codex Tyranids! ^_^

 

It would only be pointless if we all lol'ed ourselves to death! :lol:

 

Ha, fair point!

[Hellios]

No, he's boring becuase he's not inteligent, nor cunning.

 

He knows everything, and every deafeat is ctually just another part of his plan to win.

 

Tzeentch doesn't know everything :S He tries to plan for every case but he doesn't always know how things will turn out. Tzeentch knows everything that was and is but he does not know everything that will be.... That is why he sacrificed a load of his Greater Daemons to the Vortex of time and turned his right hand man into a crazy... or Fate-weaver if you prefer.

 

Also the Necrons may have existed before the Chaos gods in linear time... Although in warp time they have always existed.

 

Draigo is far more yawn.

[Gentlemanloser]

I agree. :P And that's the Tzeentch I *far* more prefer, than the undefeatable, knows everything, snore-bore. ;)

 

And as not everything that happens is an auto win for Tzeentch, then we're back to Draigo being far to powerful for your average mortal in the warp.

 

And that the Chaos Gods really aren't laughing at the rukus he's making in thier home.

[Vesper]

Don't really see why they couldn't. He doesn't make any difference. He's just fighting. Just like the armies of the gods in the warp. Destroying the home of the gods ? Meaningless, pointless, instantly undone. He couldn't even hurt the gods. He's a funny pawn driven by the illusion of free will and what he thinks is good. He can do everything in the warp, but due to the fact that he's unable to make something meaningful, it's just plain useless.

Tzeentch, on another topic, isn't autowin. It's "whatever, you just served me, I win in the end".

He can see every variation in the multiple futures, he knows all hopes and sees all the dreams of the mortals. Every event, every intention, nothing can remain hidden to Tzeentch mighty mind. Realm of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned is a good read. Everything you can know about the gods is in it.

[TrashMan]

Becuase *everything* else written in Draigo's entry, same entry, same writer, is literal.

 

He's not 'figuratively' in the Warp. Nor did he figuartively burn down those gardens. Those are *all* literal accounts of Draigos exploits.

 

Why on earth would the writer sneak a figurative description into the start of his literal work? Makes no sense that.

 

 

Because that's how spoken language and written words work. You use literar and figurative often in the same paragraph, or even a sentance.

 

"I met this beautifull girl the other day. I'd hit her so hard whoever pulled me out of htere would be crowned the next king of england!" EVERYTHING literal? Or the opposite? Does that mean the girl I met wasn't beautifulll?

And why would it be literal in the first place? What makes more sense to you? What is a simpler explanation? (Occmas Razor)

 

 

last time GK tried to take out something on that level they required 6 brotherhoods on armagedon . Draigo "soloed" Mortarion and that is after Mortarion killed the Grand Master before Draigo. It would be like an imperial guardsman killing Khârn in a melee fight.

 

The power of any character and faction depends mostly on the writer and circumstances.

Didnt' Alarc destory Gorgalorath (or whatever) with just a few words? Circumstances change EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.

At one point GK GM have been described as being able to kill a Greater Demon with a SINGLE HIT.

 

And this is exactlsy hte problem. Their skill and power varries so friggin much. Like superman over the ages.

 

 

The GK are rumoured to be from the emperor. The only presence of the emperor in the warp is the astronomicon. Just like every other psykers, they echo in the warp as shining lights. The emperor has a big light, but it's not his spirit. It's like every other psyker. Then, when they die, psykers are consumed by Chaos. The emperor becoming something when he dies is pretty much outdated. So I guess we'll have to wait for BL to flesh the emperor a bit. But at this moment. The emperor is nothing more than a beacon. And when he dies, the beacon turns off, and so do the imperium. The end.

 

Sauce?I don't think I reead anything at all taht contradict the possibiltiy of the E becoming a new god. After all, worship = power in teh warp.

Part of the E is in the warp. Trillions worship him and die every day in his name.

 

Also, anyone claiming that Draigo is boring but Tzeench is interesting - you're delludingyourselves. If Draigo is boring, so is Tzeench. Period. None-debatable.

One-trick ponies, both of them.

[Gentlemanloser]

Because that's how spoken language and written words work. You use literar and figurative often in the same paragraph, or even a sentance.

 

"I met this beautifull girl the other day. I'd hit her so hard whoever pulled me out of htere would be crowned the next king of england!" EVERYTHING literal? Or the opposite? Does that mean the girl I met wasn't beautifulll?

And why would it be literal in the first place? What makes more sense to you? What is a simpler explanation? (Occmas Razor)

 

Oh come on...

 

There's a difference to typing up someones speach, to providing a descriptive background as part of a biography.

 

The power of any character and faction depends mostly on the writer and circumstances.

Didnt' Alarc destory Gorgalorath (or whatever) with just a few words? Circumstances change EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.

At one point GK GM have been described as being able to kill a Greater Demon with a SINGLE HIT.

 

Edit: Removed snarkyness.

 

Not only did I make this point on page 1, it negates your entire thread.

 

Fluff has little bearing on in game performance, and it *totally* at the whim of whatever writter is doing the work.

 

Also, can you point out where in all the 'fluff' your gripes aobut Force Wepaons, etc are? As far as I remeber, GKs cna use the Liber Daemonica to banish Greater Daemons, *just by speaking thier name*.

 

Now if that isn't bad-ass enough for you, I'm not sure what is.

[TrashMan]

Because that's how spoken language and written words work. You use literar and figurative often in the same paragraph, or even a sentance.

 

"I met this beautifull girl the other day. I'd hit her so hard whoever pulled me out of htere would be crowned the next king of england!" EVERYTHING literal? Or the opposite? Does that mean the girl I met wasn't beautifulll?

And why would it be literal in the first place? What makes more sense to you? What is a simpler explanation? (Occmas Razor)

 

Oh come on...

 

There's a difference to typing up someones speach, to providing a descriptive background as part of a biography.

 

Not really. Go read up on Tolkien. Sillmarilion. And many other creation myths and tales of heroes from earth short history.

You'll find such phrases everywhere.

 

 

The power of any character and faction depends mostly on the writer and circumstances.

Didnt' Alarc destory Gorgalorath (or whatever) with just a few words? Circumstances change EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING.

At one point GK GM have been described as being able to kill a Greater Demon with a SINGLE HIT.

 

 

Not only did I make this point on page 1, it negates your entire thread.

 

How exactly?

Complainign about inconcistenty is inconsistent?

 

 

 

GKs cna use the Liber Daemonica to banish Greater Daemons, *just by speaking thier name*.

Now if that isn't bad-ass enough for you, I'm not sure what is.

 

So can anyone else who knows the name. Big woof.

[Vesper]

The GK are rumoured to be from the emperor. The only presence of the emperor in the warp is the astronomicon. Just like every other psykers, they echo in the warp as shining lights. The emperor has a big light, but it's not his spirit. It's like every other psyker. Then, when they die, psykers are consumed by Chaos. The emperor becoming something when he dies is pretty much outdated. So I guess we'll have to wait for BL to flesh the emperor a bit. But at this moment. The emperor is nothing more than a beacon. And when he dies, the beacon turns off, and so do the imperium. The end.

 

Sauce?I don't think I reead anything at all taht contradict the possibiltiy of the E becoming a new god. After all, worship = power in teh warp.

Part of the E is in the warp. Trillions worship him and die every day in his name.

 

Also, anyone claiming that Draigo is boring but Tzeench is interesting - you're delludingyourselves. If Draigo is boring, so is Tzeench. Period. None-debatable.

One-trick ponies, both of them.

 

So sad the E is not a warp being... and that all those prayers are wasted... In fact, that worship is fueling Tzeentch, who feeds on hope and desire for change.

 

Tzeentch is awesome. Not because he's winning, but because he's a chaos god dedicated to plotting and fate manipulation. And he's playing his game solo. He don't care about the other gods, he don't care about his servitors, he don't care about the imperium. Everyone is just a pawn to him.

[Gentlemanloser]

Not really.

 

Becuase nowhere in Draigo's backstory is a transcript of him talking...

 

How exactly?

 

Your first post is 'all about the fluff' of GKs not being bad-ass enough anymore. I then expose it as being innacurate in the rules, and the fluff, and state that the fluff changes based on wo's writing it.

 

Then you post that 'hey what do you guess, the fluff changes bsed on who's wiriting it! And GKs can one-shot Greater Daemones and are awesomesauce!!"

 

And you don't see how that destroys your own thread?

 

Yeah, I'm done.

 

Your thread is innaurate, has no point, and is at best flamebait. I hope a moderator locks it.

[TrashMan]

Becuase nowhere in Draigo's backstory is a transcript of him talking...

 

And?

 

What does him talking have to do with anything?

People re-telling someone elses story also use all kinds of literaly tools. Including not being literal.

 

 

 

Your first post is 'all about the fluff' of GKs not being bad-ass enough anymore. I then expose it as being innacurate in the rules, and the fluff, and state that the fluff changes based on wo's writing it.

 

Then you post that 'hey what do you guess, the fluff changes bsed on who's wiriting it! And GKs can one-shot Greater Daemones and are awesomesauce!!"

 

And you don't see how that destroys your own thread?

 

Yeah, I'm done.

 

Nope. Fluff changes and hte change has NOT been good IMHO.

The specific power of GK's is only PART of the fluff about GK's.

 

So no, I don't see how it "destroys" my own tread.

And goodbye.