TrashMan Posted June 16, 2012 Author Share Posted June 16, 2012 So sad the E is not a warp being... and that all those prayers are wasted... In fact, that worship is fueling Tzeentch, who feeds on hope and desire for change. Direct, undeniable proof? Souls are warp "beings". In a matter of speaking. If a warp god can come to being from nothing, then it stands to reason that an already existing warp presence can also be strengthen or grow. Also, Tzench is not a god of hope. Certanly not one of duty, or humanity or courage. He is PURE change. Pointless, aimless, unguided change. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 What does him talking have to do with anything?People re-telling someone elses story also use all kinds of literaly tools. Including not being literal. + technicly speaking it is impossible for someone else to be telling his story as the stuff he is doing in the warp is something he does alone . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 So sad the E is not a warp being... and that all those prayers are wasted... In fact, that worship is fueling Tzeentch, who feeds on hope and desire for change. Direct, undeniable proof? Souls are warp "beings". In a matter of speaking. If a warp god can come to being from nothing, then it stands to reason that an already existing warp presence can also be strengthen or grow. Also, Tzench is not a god of hope. Certanly not one of duty, or humanity or courage. He is PURE change. Pointless, aimless, unguided change. Souls are not beings. Tzeentch is the god that feeds from hope and desire for change. That is why he's opposed to Nurgle, who feeds from despair. You should read a bit more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 So sad the E is not a warp being... and that all those prayers are wasted... In fact, that worship is fueling Tzeentch, who feeds on hope and desire for change. Direct, undeniable proof? Souls are warp "beings". In a matter of speaking. If a warp god can come to being from nothing, then it stands to reason that an already existing warp presence can also be strengthen or grow. Also, Tzench is not a god of hope. Certanly not one of duty, or humanity or courage. He is PURE change. Pointless, aimless, unguided change. Souls are not beings. Tzeentch is the god that feeds from hope and desire for change. That is why he's opposed to Nurgle, who feeds from despair. You should read a bit more. Source? I always thought Nurgle's 'thang' was to do with the cycle of death so to speak; The end of all things. Tzeentch and Nurgle are diametrically opposed because Tzeentch always seeks to change things whereas Nurgle seeks to tear them down. Despair seems an unusual emotion to speak of when referencing a god who is often quoted as being jolly or paternal. Besides, Changers of Ways are as apt to deceive themselves as they are anyone else, so they obviously don't see ALL futures coming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Besides, Changers of Ways are as apt to deceive themselves as they are anyone else, so they obviously don't see ALL futures coming. Sure not, only Tzeentch do, and he keeps most of his knowledge for himself. About the sources, it's about everywhere Tzeentch is described. For instance : "In his mind, he listens to the plans and hopes of every man, every nation." "Tzeentch feeds upon the need and the desire for change that is an essential part of human nature." "All men dream of wealth, freedom and a better tomorrow. Nor are these dreams the preserve of the impoverished or the powerless as even rich men dream of further riches, or of an end to their responsabilities. All these dreams create a powerful impetus for change, and the ambitions of nations create a force which can change history. Tzeentch is the embodiment of that force." "His energy comes from the excitement and will to change, to forge one's destiny, change fortune, and gain power. This is quite the opposite of Nurgle, whose powers comes from defiance of despair and hopelessness." Page 30. Realm of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Besides, Changers of Ways are as apt to deceive themselves as they are anyone else, so they obviously don't see ALL futures coming. Sure not, only Tzeentch do, and he keeps most of his knowledge for himself. About the sources, it's about everywhere Tzeentch is described. For instance : "In his mind, he listens to the plans and hopes of every man, every nation." "Tzeentch feeds upon the need and the desire for change that is an essential part of human nature." "All men dream of wealth, freedom and a better tomorrow. Nor are these dreams the preserve of the impoverished or the powerless as even rich men dream of further riches, or of an end to their responsabilities. All these dreams create a powerful impetus for change, and the ambitions of nations create a force which can change history. Tzeentch is the embodiment of that force." "His energy comes from the excitement and will to change, to forge one's destiny, change fortune, and gain power. This is quite the opposite of Nurgle, whose powers comes from defiance of despair and hopelessness." Page 30. Realm of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned. Fair enough. I'm more of a Khorne guy myself but thanks for the info. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 No prob. If you can get Slaves to Darkness and The Lost and the Damned, don't hesitate, really cool and well written fluff and crazy Blanche artworks that are freaking creepy. Plus, those books are huge. GW at its very best. But yes, to Trashman, in the end, the worship of the emperor feeds Tzeentch and has no incidence on the emperor itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087532 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 You're absolutley wrong on that one. ;) Otherwise, all SoB acts of faith are actually Daemonic investments, and Living Saints are Daemon Princes of T. Which they're not. :) As for more recent fluff, the HH has acts of faith in the Emperor banish Daemons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087737 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I am absolutly right. Acts of faith are some kind of sorcery, that banishes daemons. You know, a bit like Robin Williams managing to fly. SoB saints are IMO a bit like seinsei : daughters of the emperor. So sad his soul is slowly being corrupted by Chaos in the warp... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 On the topic of Tzeench planning for anything, how on earth does he plan for Pariahs. Being psychically negative, wouldn't they be immune to all influence from the Warp, and proof against Tzeench's gaze. And where the ;) does it say the Emperor is being corrupted by Chaos. I thought he was one of the rare things in the universe that couldn't be corrupted, you know, being made specifically to fight Chaos. Sorry if this sounds needlessly antagonistic, just needed to convey my sense of confusion. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 No problem buddy, I can understand : "And the emperor's power is weakening. His mind, so long the bastion of Humanity against the horrors of the warp, is failing." "Evils which he rejected millennia ago return to haunt the Emperor in quieter moments." From RoC Slaves to Darkness "Over the millennia the link between his soul and body has become increasingly tenuous. Worse of all, the Powers of Chaos have begun to infiltrate his mind, sowing seeds of doubt, dissolution and fear." RoC The Lost and the Damned - page 185. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring-around-the-roses Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Oh damn... Well, we're :D . Hmmm, not sure if want retcon or not... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Matt Ward retcon. How to turn an interesting grim lore into a big old fanwank. I think it is much more cooler like this, it really values the emperor as a real hero that sacrified everything for the lost cause that was humanity, and so failed. The emperor was a tremor in human history, but he couldn't remove humanity from mankind, so he couldn't stop Chaos. So he tried to create a new humanity with the Primarch program, yet he was tricked and the primarchs were taken from him and corrupted. Humanity is :D from day one, but at least the emperor tried. Grim story, for sure, but a really cool one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I am absolutly right.Acts of faith are some kind of sorcery, that banishes daemons. You know, a bit like Robin Williams managing to fly. SoB saints are IMO a bit like seinsei : daughters of the emperor. Neither of those are correct. But I doubt I'll change your mind. Acts of Faith; Instead, the Sisters of Battle perform Acts of Faith, manifestations of the Emperor of Mankind's divine purpose.5 p. 18 These small miracles are unlike any psychic power; defenses or weapons useful against normal psykers has no affect on them.5 p. 18 Below are a few of the more well-known manifestations: Living Saints; Some Living Saints are killed and resurrected by the power of the Emperor. Examples of this include Saint Sabbat and Saint Celestine As for Tzeentch; While he can see the dreams of all that may be, he does not know *which* will happen. He can plan for everything, but cannot know for sure what will be. As well as an interest in magic, Tzeentch takes keen notice of all plots and plans. As the Great Conspirator, he is aware of all the dreams of plans and mortals. This is how Tzeentch is able to perceive the future; by being aware of all that is planned and all that may potentially happen, he can see all possible fates. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 You realize that knowing all possible fates is just like knowing the future, right ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 except you can't tell *which* of the possible fates will be the *actual* fate. It's a suble distinction. As for Sorcery, it's just a version of Psychic power; the seperation between psychic power and black magic exists only in the minds of men Acts of faith are neither Sorcery, nor Psychic Power (which are one and the same). They are powered directly by the Emperors will. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Didn't meant sorcery so to speak, should have been more explicit about that. We know Chaos is keen on humanity because humanity is one of the main sources of Chaos. Ergo, I consider that the act of faith may be a kind way to say "rise above the human condition for an instant and become a threat to daemons". We don't know how they works in detail. The "ye, its the emprah, man, hez so strong !" is something I put on bigotery and extreme faith, nothing reliable. except you can't tell *which* of the possible fates will be the *actual* fate. It's a suble distinction. Why would that matter ? He knows them all, he has a backup plan to every of his backup plans. He's the god of conspiracy and plotting. You just can't trick a being that knows every fate possible and that knows everything you think of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Except that living saints are bought back by his powers, because he's the emperor, and he's *that* strong. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 And that is why I said they may be daughter of the emperor, literaly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3087849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 What does him talking have to do with anything?People re-telling someone elses story also use all kinds of literaly tools. Including not being literal. + technicly speaking it is impossible for someone else to be telling his story as the stuff he is doing in the warp is something he does alone . Omniscent narrator? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3088416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 But yes, to Trashman, in the end, the worship of the emperor feeds Tzeentch and has no incidence on the emperor itself. I refuse to belive that wihout DIRECT proof. Not inferred. The chaos gods being CHAOS gods and the immaterium being as it is, I wan't hard facts...as much as one can get them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3088420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 Why would that matter ? He knows them all, he has a backup plan to every of his backup plans. He's the god of conspiracy and plotting. You just can't trick a being that knows every fate possible and that knows everything you think of. Mind wards. Give T the finger. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3088426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 "Hey, I should use a mind ward !" T knows it. You can't beat him. People hope the emperor will save them and the imperium could fight back... Hope... Desire for change. Fuel for T, even if you don't like it. Human nature is the fuel of the chaos gods (even plants and such fuel chaos, less than intelligent beings, ofc, but still). Ergo, you should start exterminating the human race if you really want to slow down Chaos (even if it would live on, btw). The living beings shaped the immaterium. It was harmony and they made it Chaos. Chaos is the natural evolution of the living creatures of the galaxy. You're screwed. Rock hard fluff. Oh, and the "soul" of the emperor in the warp remain unchanged, even with the worship. Well unchanged is not the right word, because it's being corrupted by Chaos, but it's not growing powerful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3088441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I don't think everything mankind does (indirectly) feeds the Chaos gods. The warp is a place of emotion for sure, but the Chaos gods seem to feed on the extreme end of such emotions. Take Slaanesh for instance, who wasn't created untill the fall of the Eldar. I'm pretty sure people were horny long before that. :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3088446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 The gods, before their awakening, were proto entities, slowly growing. The "birth" of slaanesh is nothing more than the long accumulation of pleasure and such by all sentient beings, the eldars coming on top of that with a huge empire filled with pleasure cults. Everything feeds the gods, more or less. That is why the emperor created the primarchs, the "new men", who could not be corrupted by chaos. We know how this ended. As I said, Chaos feeds from plants, to a certain degree. It's hardly an extreme end of emotions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254105-grey-knights/page/4/#findComment-3088450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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