Myxx Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 So I was thinking, what about putting Coteaz in a Chimera with 2 Jokaero, and 2 MM servitors. Also a couple of strike squads within 12". If the enemy deepstrikes into the warpquake zone and can be moved into the range for "I've been expecting you", all 5 should be able to drop serious punishment on the DSers... seemed like a good midfield sitter to me... Maybe with interceptors instead to shunt and contest objectives in the final turn? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Or.... (I'm going there! ;)) Keep Coteaz within 12" of the Strikes, and repeatidly misplace the unit within 12" of Coteaz! *BOOM* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjc Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Unfortunately, Coteaz can't use his "I've been expecting you" while in a vehicle since it's a special ability and requires line of site. :) But The combination of strike squads and Coteaz with a beefy shooty unit can put the hurt on DOA and drop pod heavy lists. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Unfortunately, Coteaz can't use his "I've been expecting you" while in a vehicle since it's a special ability and requires line of site. Emm… Fire points? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Mjc is correct, you can't use fire points to trace line of sight for special rules, so Coteaz indeed cannot use I've Been Expecting You from inside a vehicle: Q: Can models embarked upon a vehicle use its fire points to draw line of sight to a unit to use special rules or wargear (other than shooting)? (p66) A: No. Source Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 RNL, IBEY is shooting. It's a shooting special rule, so is allowed. Otheriwse Temries in Chimera that have moved couldn't use TDA's relentless to fire Heavy Weapons. For example. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 No. IBEY is not shooting, but a special rule that grants an out-of-sequence shooting attack, if a unit arrives within 12" of Coteaz and in his line of sight. As you can't trace line of sight from a firepoint (see above FAQ excerpt) unless you're shooting, you can't use IBEY from a vehicle to get the free shooting action. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 RNL, IBEY is shooting. It's a shooting special rule, so is allowed. Otheriwse Temries in Chimera that have moved couldn't use TDA's relentless to fire Heavy Weapons. For example. Unfortunately, no. IBEY is not, itself, a Shooting Attack. It is a special rule which can allow a Shooting Attack in your opponents Movement Phase - but as a Special Rule that requires Line of Sight, the FAQ prevents it from working when Embarked using Fire Points. If IBEY did not require Line of Sight, then yes - the Fire Points could be used for the resultant Shooting Attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 All that said this would be best used with say paladins or purifiers with 4 psycannons. Misplace the unit within 12" of cotaez and unload with 16 S7 shots + storm bolters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Unfortunately, no. IBEY is not, itself, a Shooting Attack. It is a special rule which can allow a Shooting Attack in your opponents Movement Phase - but as a Special Rule that requires Line of Sight, the FAQ prevents it from working when Embarked using Fire Points. If IBEY did not require Line of Sight, then yes - the Fire Points could be used for the resultant Shooting Attack. So you'd agree that GKT in a Chimera that has moved can't use Relentless to allow them to shoot? (Heavy Weapons obvisouly! :D Not Assault SBs! :P ) Edit: Apart from Hive Guard and Astral Aim, what shootiung attacks *don't* require LoS? :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamv6 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 I hold Coteaz with my Purgation Squad which does exactly what Breng said. - 16 S7 shots and 6 S5. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Unfortunately, no. IBEY is not, itself, a Shooting Attack. It is a special rule which can allow a Shooting Attack in your opponents Movement Phase - but as a Special Rule that requires Line of Sight, the FAQ prevents it from working when Embarked using Fire Points. If IBEY did not require Line of Sight, then yes - the Fire Points could be used for the resultant Shooting Attack. So you'd agree that GKT in a Chimera that has moved can't use Relentless to allow them to shoot? (Heavy Weapons obvisouly! :P Not Assault SBs! ;) ) Edit: Apart from Hive Guard and Astral Aim, what shootiung attacks *don't* require LoS? :/ Relentless doesn't require Line of Sight to function... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Unfortunately, no. IBEY is not, itself, a Shooting Attack. It is a special rule which can allow a Shooting Attack in your opponents Movement Phase - but as a Special Rule that requires Line of Sight, the FAQ prevents it from working when Embarked using Fire Points. If IBEY did not require Line of Sight, then yes - the Fire Points could be used for the resultant Shooting Attack. So you'd agree that GKT in a Chimera that has moved can't use Relentless to allow them to shoot? (Heavy Weapons obvisouly! :P Not Assault SBs! ;) ) No, as Relentless doesn't require line of sight to work. And shooting attacks are specifically allowed to trace line of sight from fire points, while special rules are not. IBEY is not a shooting attack, but a special rule which grants a shooting attack when certain conditions are met. Big difference there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 That's a slippery slope. :P You can't use Relentless to make a shooting attack when you don't have LoS. And relentless does nothing else than allow you to make a shooting attack under a specific circumstance. Exactly like IBEY. IBEY is not a shooting attack, but a special rule which grants a shooting attack when certain conditions are met. Big difference there. That's Relentless as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 No, Relentless lifts certain restrictions on firing heavy and rapid fire weapons. You already have the shooting attack in that instance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 You can't shot a heavy weapon if you've moved. Relentless lifts that restriciton. Or, allows you to fire heavy weapons after moving (or RF at full range). You can't shoot an enemy unit in thier Movement phase just as they deploy. IBEY lifts that restriciton. Or, allows you to shoot at units in thier movement phase, as they deploy. Edit: Going back to the FAQ in question, why the parentahsis? What does (other than shooting) mean, or allow you to do? If *all* Specials Rules (or wargear) that require LoS are disaalowed? Obvisouly, the Parenthesis is there to stop 'shooting' Special Rules from being disallowed. And IBEY is a 'shooting' Special Rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 A Relentless model is Relentless regardless of Line of Sight. Thus a Relentless model is Relentless even when Embarked in a Transport. IBEY only applies when a unit Deep Strikes within Line of Sight of Coteaz. IBEY can't use Fire Points to give Coteaz Line of Sight for his IBEY special rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 But what does the (other than shooting) mean? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Shooting is a specific type of action in the 40k ruleset. Obviously, tracing line of sight to check the condition for a special rule is not considered shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 But that's not covered by that FAQ entry. If that's the meaning for the parenthasis, it's redundant. You can shoot using firepoints using the BRB rules. This FAQ entry is specifically for using SR and Warger to draw LoS. And that Parenthises is there to exclude SR/Wargear that's drawing line of sight for Shooting Attacks. That's the only meaning it can have. And IBEY is a SR that's drawing LoS purely for a shooting attack. For example, if the Banishers Daemon reroll requires LoS, they can't use that from inside a vehicle thorugh a fire point, as it's not a shooting attack. IBEY is a shooting attack. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 But that's not covered by that FAQ entry. If that's the meaning for the parenthasis, it's redundant. No, it's to prevent the two different rules from conflicting. You can shoot using firepoints using the BRB rules. This FAQ entry is specifically for using SR and Warger to draw LoS. And that Parenthises is there to exclude SR/Wargear that's drawing line of sight for Shooting Attacks. That's the only meaning it can have. Correct. And IBEY is a SR that's drawing LoS purely for a shooting attack. Incorrect. It's drawing line of sight purily for determinaning if you gain a bonus shooting attack. For example, if the Banishers Daemon reroll requires LoS, they can't use that from inside a vehicle thorugh a fire point, as it's not a shooting attack. Correct, although a better example would be a Tau Ethereal's Inpsiring Presence, as that rule does actually require line of sight. IBEY is a shooting attack. Incorrect, it's most definately a special rule that has the possibility of granting bonus shooting attacks under certain conditions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 IBEY is a shooting attack. No, IBEY is a special rule which allows a Shooting Attack to take place - but it does not have a Shooting Profile. The Codex: Space Marine Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment is a special rule that is a Shooting Attack, note the Shooting Profile in the special rule's rules. The Codex: Dark Eldar Mandrake's Baleblast is a special rule that is a Shooting Attack, note the Shooting Profile in the special rules. IBEY is not a Shooting Attack, it has no Shooting Profile attached to it - it simply allows the model to use its normal Wargear to make a Shooting Attack. But it requires Line of Sight to a target to allow this out-of-turn Shot and therefore (according to the FAQ) can't do so through a Fire Point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 My bad. Should have been IBEY is a SR that allows shooting. No, it's to prevent the two different rules from conflicting. No it's not. Remove it from the rule, and there's no conflict. If that's what it's there for, it's totally superfluous. But, I stand that it's there for a reason. So Wargear/SR that effect shooting can still be used through fire points. While Wargear/SR that don't, can't. :mellow: Edit: So what exactly does the parenthesis effect, currently? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedemptionNL Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 Remove it from the rule, and there's no conflict. Of course there would be. Else it would say you couldn't ever use firepoints for wargear. Remember that almost every ranged weapon is a piece wargear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 >_< Doh. Of course. LoL! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254107-coteaz-and-strikes/#findComment-3084921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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