Synergy in lists

[Dosjetka]

I've read a fair few topics around the board about how you should consider building lists in a certain way, and one thing that has come to my attention lately is army synergy.

 

Army synergy is basically making units work together to achieve a better result than by just using units individually (or, at least, that's what I've understood). This is all very clear in my head and all, but my main problem is how to go from this definition of synergy to actually implementing it within an army list. I mean is it really as simple as "That Attack Bike with heavy bolter will zoom around with that anti-infantry/-armour armed Tactical Squad in a Rhino to help it out when dealing with infantry"? For some reason, I don't see it as being so simple.

 

So, what I'm asking for is ideas, advice and anything else you could think of to help me (and others) understand how to implement synergy within an army list. And if at all possible, I'd like to concentrate only on Codex: Space Marines (the codex I'm using).

 

Cheers,

 

Ludovic

[Kierdale]

One example of synergy as I see it is deciding how you are going to take apart the enemy:

First what units do you expect to face.

Then what unit do you need to counter it, and if that unit should fail what support unit can you use?

And build on the list from there.

 

For example I know my opponent is going to have troops in an APC, then an alpha-strike of a multi-melta land speeder storm carrying scouts with a combi melta and melta bombs or a power fist is a good way to handle it.

If I know those troops are going to be Terminators and that APC is going to be a land raided then dropping my plasma command squad and librarian with null zone in will be able to handle the terminators after the land speeder/scouts crack it open.

Then it'd be a good idea to think about 'Plan B's. What if the land speeder and scouts fail? Then it's handy to have a missile launcher or lascannon or two back on your own side of the board to reach out and crack that transport.

 

Another example I can think of: Troops are needed to capture objectives, so they either need supporting or need other units to distract and harass the enemy, keeping enemy fire off the Troops. Thinking of what can fill each roll, and how they can help each other.

 

I hope that helps.

[Brother Nihm]

This is all very clear in my head and all, but my main problem is how to go from this definition of synergy to actually implementing it within an army list.

A good example I can give you (even though it is C:CSM specific) is to find a specific unit's strength (usually in the form of weapon loadout or a special rule), and then find an ability or unit that can either enhance or capitalize on it.

 

Scenario:

Chaos Obliterators can morph weapons into Plasma Cannons, plasma cannons throw mini-pie plates and generally kill infantry and wreck light vehicles.

I need anti-infantry (MEQ) capabilities and for me, nothing beats the versatility and mobility of Chaos Obliterators. I want to use Oblits more effectively.

 

Issues:

Most good players know how to space out their models and standard squad coherency is 2" anyway. Not optimal for throwing pie plates.

 

Action:

Look for something that can counter that.

 

First solution:

Tank shock, way too risky, can damage own vehicles.

 

Second solution:

The Lash of Submission psychic power lets you move the opponent's models in your turn, allowing you to clump several units together; before the Obliterators can shoot (if declared correctly).

 

We have a winner.

[Dosjetka]

Kierdale: Cheers for the example, I understand it completely ^_^ But in your example, you talk about specific and known threats in an enemy's army list. How would you implement synergy within an all-rounder force where you wouldn't know what the opponent has?

Nihm: A good idea that, to find a unit's strength. Cheers for the advice and well-explained example ;)

 

Ludovic

[Torvold]

One unit combo I have tried a few times and its worked pretty well for me is a thundefire cannon on a piece of terrain that you have used the techmarine with the cannon bolster defence on. Then you bubble wrap the cannon with a 10-man scout squad all sniper with Telion and a missile launcher. The scouts get a 2+ cover save thanks to Telion's stealth ability plus the bonus for bolster defence. The scouts act as a buffer to stop the cannon from being assaulted and with Telion to make the missile more accurate I find this to be a fantastic backfield objective camper. The only down side is its approx 300 points and BS3 on the scouts so while you do have the range with snipers hitting things is a little unreliable compared to the rest of C:SM units. I'm not sure if this what you mean by synergy but its what I got ^_^.

 

~Torvold

[facmanpob]

There are many different ways in which your own models can interact with each other......I like to look at ways to take advantage of strengths, whilst overcoming weaknesses......

 

e.g. Speeders are sadly quite fragile, having only AV10, but Typhoon missile launchers rock and so I like to take a couple of speeders. Dreadnoughts are cool and I like them in my lists, and they are more suvivable through having AV12........A speeder can hide behind a Dreadnought, with its missile launchers sticking over the top......the opponent has the option of either shooting at the AV12 dread and leaving the speeder alone, or trying to kill the speeder which will get a cover save

 

In the last game I played I had a speeder hiding behind a Dread, and at one point turbo-boosted a bike squad in front of the Dread......now my opponent had a choice to either shoot at the bikes (3+ cover), or the Dread (4+ cover) or the speeder (4+ cover). That turn he did those squads zero damage, and my dreadnought shot its plasma cannon and speeder shot its missiles without interference.

 

What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that for me synergy is not just about writing army lists that have redundancy, or have units with matching range weapons (e.g. the plasma gun/multi-melta Tactical squad), its also about deployment and interaction on the battlefield to give you an advantage in game terms, so Torvold's post above is, for me, a very good example. ^_^

 

EDIT - spelling!

[DarkGuard]

Synergy can be a difficult thing to understand fully, although the concept is quite simple. Get parts of your army working together. All armies should and generally do include a level of synergy, even Draigowing armies do, having psyfleman to fill in long-range and anti-transport or PT Dreadknights for mobility.

 

To help explain I'm going to post my current list, which I think is very synergy based.

 

First Captain Angrod Carnesir w/ relic blade, storm shield and digi weapons = 180

5x Honour Guard: Chapter Champion w/ relic blade, 4x Honour Guard w/ Chapter Banner, Rhino = 260

Librarian Tempestus w/ Null Zone and Gate of Infinity = 100

 

Sternguard squad Zarv: 8 Sternguard w/ power fist, 4x combi-melta, Rhino = 280

 

Tactical squad Riklir: 10 Tactical Marines w/ combi-melta, meltagun, plasma cannon, Rhino = 225

Tactical squad Karik: 10 Tactical Marines w/ combi-plasma, plasma gun, lascannon, las/plas Razorback = 275

 

2x attack bikes w/ 2x multi-melta = 100

Typhoon = 90

Typhoon = 90

 

Devastator squad Tatovrai: 5 Devastator Marines w/ 4x missile launchers = 150

 

Total = 1750pts

 

Now looking at the two elite units, which provide most of the killing power, we can start to see where the synergy sets in. First you have the Chapter Master with the Honour Guard, reducing the amount of I4 attacks hitting them while hopefully catching attacks that ignore artificer armour. Then the Libby goes with the Sternguard, where his Gate acts as a backup transport and can get the combi-meltas in range if they're badly placed.

 

Next, the Tactical Marines. That's no random equipment they've got, they've been built to syngerize and complement the Elite units. Honour Guard don't like power weapons, which are held by Elite units a lot. Sternguard don't have mass AP2. So the plasma gun unit helps with that, and nearly always combat squads, even in KPs. Then the other unit has melta to help with close range anti-tank, as the only other dedicated melta source are the attack bikes. Honour Guard and Sternguard are both great against infantry, so are the missile launcher squads, so the melta squad is allowed to take melta because the rest of the list can deal with the infantry and I need more dedicated units of it. Sternguard have combi-melta as backup.

 

And then the Typhoons, Razorback and Devs. These have long-range firepower to impact my opponent's mobility while eliminating threats like Dreadnoughts that my other units could find troublesome. Getting units into the open quickly synergizes well with the list as Sternguard and Honour Guard prefer units in the open, not in their transports.

 

And then finally Null Zone, which works well with the low AP weapons and the power weapons I have in the list, meaning that my army is more efficient at killing tough targets and Daemons.

 

 

This is just one example of who synergy can work in a list, there's many different ways it can work, all unique in their own way, some complicated, some simple. It really does require playing a lot to figure out what works best with what and how.

[Seneschal of the Seventh]

I think the best example of synergy in C:SM is, as many have mentioned, the Null Zone Libby combined with anything toting low-AP weapons. One of my favorite units is this:

 

Libby - Null Zone/Avenger

 

5 Sternguard - 4 Combi-Plasmas, Heavy Flamer, LC/TLPG Razorback or Rhino

 

6 Sternguard - 4 Combi-Plasmas, 2 Heavy Flamers, LC/TLPG Razorback or Rhino

 

These units work very well together, which is just a long-winded way of saying they have synergy. Each squad has 2 heavy flamers for infantry killing, and enough plasma to put a lethal dent in any unit, especially when combined with Null Zone. AP3 really gets munched by the Vengeance rounds plus Avenger.. The lascannons on the Razors provide the anti-tank deterrent, and even more low-AP firepower. If I can't afford Razors, or don't want to expose my little men outside their metal boxes of safety, Rhinos allow for double-flamer goodness from the top hatch on both squads.

 

I like to include these units in a list that also includes a pair or trio of Vindicators, and deploy the SG behind the big guns. Most enemies are more scared of the Sternguard these days, so will try to pop their rides even with the 4+ or 3+ cover provided by the Vindis. In this way, the Sternguard synergize well with the Vindicators, by drawing long-range anti-tank fire (remember, Vindis are useless for a turn after any damage result, so even autocannons and missiles are a threat!) and allowing those demo cannons to get in range and drop a few plates. Once the Vindis fire once, I find the equation flips, and the ordnance is now drawing fire from the now-more-lethal APCs.

 

And all the while, my tactical squads are merrily doing drive-bys and hopping out of their rides for some rapid-fire goodness, while the typhoons are ignored in the distant backfield.

 

I've found that a Land Speeder Storm, packed with scouts toting a Combi-Melta and meltabomb will draw even more 1st-turn fire away from the "spearhead," while standing a good chance of doing some damage of it's own on the cheap.

 

Remember, synergy is not only what your units can do for you, but what your units can force your enemy to do for you :( Units can synergize just by requiring the same guns to kill, thereby keeping eachother safer through dilution of firepower.

[Lysere]

Most of the synergy of an army comes not in the weapons you take but in how you apply them. Long range or mobile weapons are best for creating scenarios like this. Although this army is not discussed here my former experience as a Tau played taught me a lot about synergy and ways to carry it out.

 

As some have already mentioned you want to take options that naturally support each other. Like a strong tough unit assisting lighter ones, or multiple weapon types to fill threat holes. My favorite unit in C:SM for doing stuff like this is my command squad. With a mix of CC and ranged support via melta or plasma, and being in a razorback that has several weapon options, I can systematically plug several holes in my list at once. Sternguard and vanguard are some other great units for synergy purposes due to the sheer variety of options available to them.

 

The best thing to do is make sure your list can handle any threat to some degree, then just try some combos.

[Kierdale]

Kierdale: Cheers for the example, I understand it completely ;) But in your example, you talk about specific and known threats in an enemy's army list. How would you implement synergy within an all-rounder force where you wouldn't know what the opponent has?

 

Ludovic

 

I think others have since give some great advice and examples but I'll see what more I can add.

If I have no idea what units my opponent is going to field but I do know what race they're going to use then I'd probably plan to counter what can be expected from that army. For example: Orks = horde, so I'm going to need a lot of shots, and templates are going to help, plus there are likely to be some heavily armoured, hard-in-assault nobz which might need plasma to take them down before they reach my lines. It's likely that the green tide will at some point hit my lines so either some tar pit units / disposable delaying units or a solid counter assault unit would be great.

 

If I don't know what race I'm going to face/can't pick and choose what to use from a large army, then as others have said I think the key is to know your Codex: what the strengths and weaknesses of each unit are, how units can support each other. A great point Grey Paladin made with his vindicators protecting his sternguard, and made by some in the current thread discussing the Ironclad Dreadnought is that how your opponent will react to a unit is as important as what you can actively achieve with it. Bullet magnets keep the fire off your other units...but that's not going to work against every opponent. You need another trick up your sleeve to counter those with a cool head. In Grey Paladin's example it's great because if the opponent focuses on his vindicators the the sternguard get into range unharrassed, but if the opponent targets the sternguard instead they get a cover save and the vindicators get into range.

That's the kind of synergy you want.

 

It's something I can get in my head but putting it into practice is the real trick and I'm taking a lot of notes from this thread myself ;) Forever sending off units unsupported, etc.

[maturin]

If you'd like more examples of synergy from C:SM, have a look at this thread.

 

It doesn't have full armylists, but lists combinations of units that people have found to work well together.....ie, to have synergy. Generally people give a succinct description of the capabilities of the combination (is it shooty? Is it choppy? Is it choppy protecting shooty, etc?) and with those descriptions you can assemble an armylist that is well balanced, or suits your playstyle).

 

Perhaps it will inspire you with ideas.

[Dosjetka]

Torvold, facmanpob, DarkGuard, Grey Paladin & Lysere: Thank you ever so much for your input! It is really appreciated and your examples do illustrate your points well ;)

 

Kierdale: Cheers for taking the time to add more to what has been said :)

 

maturin: That's a great thread you've got there and thanks for sharing! I'll probably include at least one of the units listed there in one army list or another ;)

 

Ludovic

[Morticon]

Great advice so far - so i'm just going to throw my few cents in since I'm of the opinion that most of my lists require a large amount of synergy to do what they do.

 

Firstly, the simplest definition of the word is: two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable.

 

Obviously in gaming terms the application becomes broader- but that in essence is the starting concept.

 

I prefer tooling down my units somewhat- especially the potentially killier units with more upgrades available to them, in favour of more units that can do a little.

I find having one unit that can do a lot often winds me in trouble when I come across a nemesis list - the rock to my scissors or scissors to my paper.

 

I prefer having jack-of-all-trades units instead of very specialised units. I find this allows me to adapt to situations better than with specialised units. These JOAT units work together to produce their results. I wont ever have a 5man razorback squad with PW and MG running off to fight a bigger, scarier unit by themselves - instead I'll let a combination of units tackle problems. The bonus for me is that individually these units are not as much of a threat, but when combined become a much greater threat, and that I feel is the essence of synergy.

 

An opponent can look at your list thinking- well, nothing in there is particularly scary. But then the way you combine their play is what will eventually win you your games.

 

My standard type of tourney list at 1750 looks something like:

 

Mephy

Corbulo

8 DC - TH, PF

Rhino - dozer

10 Asslt Marines - JP, PF, 2MG

5 Asslt Marines - PW,MG

Razorback - TLPG, LC

5 Asslt Marines - PW,MG

Razorback - TLLC

5 Asslt Marines - PW,MG

Razorback - TLLC, HKM

3 Attack Bikes- 2MM

2 Attack Bikes- 2MM

2 Attack Bikes- 2MM

 

Now, while it may not look like much on paper, the ability of the units to work in conjunction is where the strength lies. Every unit is a small threat to almost every unit- and a larger threat en masse. And that (for me) is the key to good syngerised lists.

[facmanpob]

An opponent can look at your list thinking- well, nothing in there is particularly scary. But then the way you combine their play is what will eventually win you your games.

 

My standard type of tourney list at 1750 looks something like:

 

Mephy

Corbulo

8 DC - TH, PF

Rhino - dozer

10 Asslt Marines - JP, PF, 2MG

5 Asslt Marines - PW,MG

Razorback - TLPG, LC

5 Asslt Marines - PW,MG

Razorback - TLLC

5 Asslt Marines - PW,MG

Razorback - TLLC, HKM

3 Attack Bikes- 2MM

2 Attack Bikes- 2MM

2 Attack Bikes- 2MM

 

Now, while it may not look like much on paper, the ability of the units to work in conjunction is where the strength lies. Every unit is a small threat to almost every unit- and a larger threat en masse. And that (for me) is the key to good syngerised lists.

 

One of the great advantages of this is target saturation. Putting yourself in the shoes of your opponent facing this list, what does he shoot at first? If nothing looks particularly scary, then nothing will leap out as saying "shoot me first" and there is a very good chance that your opponent wil not focus fire effectively in the early game. This then allows you to steal the tactical initiative and force the enemy to be entirely reactive, thus giving you a better chance of dictating the game and hence winning.

[DarkGuard]

I find myself agreeing with Morticon. While my recent lists have focussed on using both Honour Guard and Sternguard, previous lists I've used for tournaments only used one or the other. I remember having a decision before one tournament on whether to buy a Land Raider for my Hammernators or two Vindicators. I chose the latter because I don't like the idea of having a massive unit that costs lots of points and is an obvious target. As stated that is a strong point for Morticon's list, there is no obvious target.

 

Also, using lists with less Elite units and more "standard" units will increase your ability to build and use lists with synergy through practise.

[Dosjetka]

Ah, I see. Well that is definitely some very useful advice and it makes a lot of sense (so thank you for the examples and explanations everyone :D)! This has all been very helpful!

 

Cheers,

 

Ludovic

[Bannus]

Synergy is simply everything working together towards a common goal. While the concept itself is very simple, carrying that simple concept into army building a bit more complex.

 

A really good way to 'detect' synergy is when players comment on a unit and how effective it is.

 

For example:

 

SM Player A has built a largely static, long-ranged army. Part of his army is a Scout Squad - which he infiltrates into the enemy backfield every game. Completely unsupported, this unit gets annihilated game after game.

 

SM Player B has built a fast moving/deep striking army. Part of his army is a Scout Squad - which he infiltrates into the enemy backfield every game. They provide effective fire support, pinning enemy units while his faster elements sweep in and destroy his opponent's army.

 

SM Player C comes onto the B&C asking if he should get some Scouts for his army. Space Marine Player A says "don't waste your time. The unit is a waste of points. They have never contributed anything significant to a game." Space Marine Player B, on the other hand says"Scout Squads are the bomb! I can't see how an army can ever succeed without them."

 

Note that both players are providing accurate advise for the exact same unit. One has it working in synergy with his army - the other has not. That is why I don't take anyone's review of the effectiveness of a unit at face value. It really boils down to application.

[Ming]

Synergy = combined arms approach to combat.

 

In a philosophical sense, you need to develop your force to accomplish mssions through application of multiple units, and they work together as a whole to be successful.

 

Example: A force using a librarian and units with AP2 weapons is developed. The librarian takes null zone and avenger. The supporting units take AP1 meltas, and AP2 las or plas in a good mix. Working together - the librarian nerfs invulnerable saves on OPFOR units, and the supporting weapons take them out with greater efficiency. The same unit runs into an OPFOR with lots of transported MEQs. In this case, the supporting units wreck the OPFOR transport, and the Librarian's avenger eliminates the now dismounted MEQ unit.

 

There are lots of other great examples from the generic marine codex. Some of the best are built around the ICs.

 

Similar flexible synergistic units can be derived in any of the other codexii.

 

So again, synergy is something you look to achieve, and there are a huge number of wayys to achieve it.

 

Sit back and think of the great modern warfare minds of this century and think how they would get synergy down to a tactical level: Guderian, Rommel, Abrams, Patton, Schwarzkoff, Giap, Zhukov, and others.

[Dosjetka]

bannus: Thank you for the very well-explained example :D Greatly appreciated!

 

Ming: Cheers for the explanation and examples!

 

Ludovic

[Ran]

I've found myself to like synergy on a smaller scale to create 'uber components', even though this generally results in a large concentration of pts it can be well worth it. Force multipliers are just so... juicy. B)

 

Notable examples:

 

* Lysander + Tac Termies (my personal favourite!)

* Shrike + TH/SS Termies

* Sang Priest + c.squadded Plasma Cannon Devs (and perhaps a small Sniper Scout squad on the same objective)

 

Also, redundancy is often key to my success, although some people would call it spam. If you go horde, go all horde. Same goes for mech. This way at least some of your enemies' guns will be obsolete!

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I hate the word synergy with a passion, it smacks too much of turning listing building in to some kind of business plan... Oh the evils of the world!

[minigun762]

Synergy is simply everything working together towards a common goal. While the concept itself is very simple, carrying that simple concept into army building a bit more complex.

 

A really good way to 'detect' synergy is when players comment on a unit and how effective it is.

 

For example:

 

SM Player A has built a largely static, long-ranged army. Part of his army is a Scout Squad - which he infiltrates into the enemy backfield every game. Completely unsupported, this unit gets annihilated game after game.

 

SM Player B has built a fast moving/deep striking army. Part of his army is a Scout Squad - which he infiltrates into the enemy backfield every game. They provide effective fire support, pinning enemy units while his faster elements sweep in and destroy his opponent's army.

 

SM Player C comes onto the B&C asking if he should get some Scouts for his army. Space Marine Player A says "don't waste your time. The unit is a waste of points. They have never contributed anything significant to a game." Space Marine Player B, on the other hand says"Scout Squads are the bomb! I can't see how an army can ever succeed without them."

 

Note that both players are providing accurate advise for the exact same unit. One has it working in synergy with his army - the other has not. That is why I don't take anyone's review of the effectiveness of a unit at face value. It really boils down to application.

 

A terrific post, one that really shows the importance of context when people give or take army building advice.

 

 

One thing I keep in mind is that synergies or 'combos" as I'm used to them being called, are a valid tactical tool and quite often will be the difference between a mediocore player and a good player, however they can also be taken too far and cause you to be distracted from the larger battle at hand. Be wary of becoming fixated or reliant on a particular synergy to win you the battle. Make sure you have backup plans in case the combo gets broken, or units are destroyed early. I would urge one not to build a list that hinges on only combos.