DarKnight Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 The Emperor created 20 god-like beings with the ambition, talent, and will to bring the galaxy under human domination. This sort of personality though possessing considerable loyalty, would still be predisposed to topple societies and cultures that didn't jibe with the Imperial Truth. My guess is if this is the case, this sort of ego could eventually come to the conclusion that they could rule better than the Emperor could. If Chaos didn't exist, would some other influence make Heresy a matter of fact? Perhaps not to the extent of destruction chaos was able to manage, but still to a considerable extent? Discuss? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamafore Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 It's possible. I always looked at them a figured they were designed to counterpoint each other. They would keep each other in line. Either that or the Emperor is a really big optimist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3085710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Probably not, because of the considerable loyalty that you mentioned. I doubt any of the Primarchs would have been confident enough to think they could go up against the Emperor themselves, even if a number of their brothers sided with them. The actual Horus Heresy was just Horus and Lorgar switching their loyalties from the Emperor to Chaos, which is arguably just as powerful as the Emperor, then the other traitor Primarchs switching their loyalty from the Emperor to Horus, so it was always Emperor vs Chaos, rather than Emperor vs Horus. Thats my take on it anyway -_- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3085712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Probably not, because of the considerable loyalty that you mentioned. I doubt any of the Primarchs would have been confident enough to think they could go up against the Emperor themselves, even if a number of their brothers sided with them. The actual Horus Heresy was just Horus and Lorgar switching their loyalties from the Emperor to Chaos, which is arguably just as powerful as the Emperor, then the other traitor Primarchs switching their loyalty from the Emperor to Horus, so it was always Emperor vs Chaos, rather than Emperor vs Horus. Thats my take on it anyway :lol: Yeah, I agree with this one. I don't think it would have happened if chaos did not exist. Lorgar turned because he worshiped the Emperor, and the Emperor punished him for it, and so he found other Gods. Had he not found other "Gods" he would have seen that the Emperor was right, and probably would have only become depressed. But he found chaos, and so he began to worship them instead. Horus turned because Lorgar sent Erebus who engineered a huge lie, and Chaos told Horus that the Emperor was trying to become a God and was going to betray them. At that time, when he turned, he had no desire to actually rule. And he certainly did not think he could do better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3085816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Everything hinged on Horus being "turned" to Chaos. He was the only one who could bound the Primarches together. Any who fell would be isolated and eliminated had Horus not turned. Horus could have chosen death, he could have chosen not to personally board that crashed ship (forget the name), he could have forbade the Warrior Lodges in his Legion. Hell, if he hadn't sued for peace against the Interex, Erebus probably couldn't have sneaked the tainted sword in the first place and therefore Horus wouldn't have been corrupted. I just don't like to believe any story is a foregone conclusion from the begining. It takes away the conflict. I find fatalism to be boring. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3085827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Lorgar turned because he worshiped the Emperor, and the Emperor punished him for it Originally (2nd Edition Codex Chaos, and Index Astartes Word Bearers), the Emperor had mainly reprimanded Lorgar for slacking off. His reason for lacking behind the other Primarchs was his religious zeal, but that was not really of any consequence to the Emperor. The Emperor told him to focus more on conquering/liberating worlds, rathern than building huge cathedrals and temples. But now the Horus Heresy rewrite has made it all about the religious aspect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3085845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chengar Qordath Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 One thing I would say is that while mass rebellion couldn't have happened without Chaos, I could easily see there being internal conflict between the Primarchs. Quite a few of them had serious issues with each other, and if the Emperor sticks to his hands-off approach I could see things escalating to open conflict at times. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3085898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveclark890 Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 It is in our nature to fight, we are after all predatory animals at our base level. I doubt that even the mastery of the Emperor could remove that and he kind of distilled it in its many and different forms within each Primarch: Pack leader - Horus, Guilliman Aggression - Corax, Angron, Russ Speed/Flankers - Kahn, Sanguinius Defence - Dorn, Manus All traits of members of a wolf pack. At some point or other there would have been a challenge to the Emperor purely because he had to at one point or other display a percieved sign of weakness and when the Alpha shows a sign of weakness there will be a contest. It just happened (according to the fluff) that Horus didnt wait for the show of weakness (because of the deceptions that he had been subjected to), instead he chose to attempt to force the issue. In the real world though: How boring and dull would life be if Horus and the Emperor had not fought, and the Eldar had not created Slanesh, and the Nids were not sliding into the galaxy to consume everything?!?! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3085913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 I think the E should have gathered all the Primarchs at Monarchia. Once everyone was there he should have said, "Lorgar, I told you how the Imperium roles. It has come to my attention that you ain't down with how we role, so..." The Emperor then "avengers" Lorgar and his legion out of existance. Emperor looks at the assembled Primarchs and says, " Now see what happens when you don't :P do as I say." "What are you all lookin' at GO CRUSADE SOMETHING!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3085941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForTheLion Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Horus turned because Lorgar sent Erebus who engineered a huge lie, and Chaos told Horus that the Emperor was trying to become a God and was going to betray them. Are we sure that the emperor really DIDNT plan on becoming a god? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3085990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Horus turned because Lorgar sent Erebus who engineered a huge lie, and Chaos told Horus that the Emperor was trying to become a God and was going to betray them. Are we sure that the emperor really DIDNT plan on becoming a god? :) Let's be fair, which option is the least trustworthy; the Emperor or Chaos? (Hint: It's not the Emperor.) ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Horus turned because Lorgar sent Erebus who engineered a huge lie, and Chaos told Horus that the Emperor was trying to become a God and was going to betray them. Are we sure that the emperor really DIDNT plan on becoming a god? <_< And lets pretend that that is really what he wanted: Would it have been that bad? He probably would have smoked Chaos, and then we would all be happy. I like to think he planned the whole Heresy though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Scratch a part of what I said earlier; the single event which had the most gravitas on Horus turning to Chaos was the death of Sejanus. Had he not died at that point in time Horus would have been much more roboust in his resistance to manipulation. It's so understated, but it was so crucial. Sejanus was Horus' favoured son, the nay-sayer but favourite. With his loss he lost the greatest weight that kept him on the ground. He was also suffering grief more than he let on, and easier meat for the poison from Lorgar and his minions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 If Chaos didn't exist, would some other influence make Heresy a matter of fact?Look no further than to the Night Lords.First to openly rebel & Chaos wasn't involved. (as far as we know) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 First to openly rebel & Chaos wasn't involved. (as far as we know) Aside from Curze's life long visions of fighting his own brothers and dying by the hand of his own father, which ultimately drove him mad. Aside from that, Chaos was involved very little. :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirnov Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I think the E should have gathered all the Primarchs at Monarchia. Once everyone was there he should have said, "Lorgar, I told you how the Imperium roles. It has come to my attention that you ain't down with how we role, so..." The Emperor then "avengers" Lorgar and his legion out of existance. Emperor looks at the assembled Primarchs and says, " Now see what happens when you don't :D do as I say." "What are you all lookin' at GO CRUSADE SOMETHING!" I think that's what happened to the missing two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted June 15, 2012 Author Share Posted June 15, 2012 Remember also that the Iron Warriors would not have joined the rest of the traitors if not for the Word Bearers sowing dissension on Olympia. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 If Chaos didn't exist, would some other influence make Heresy a matter of fact?Look no further than to the Night Lords.First to openly rebel & Chaos wasn't involved. (as far as we know) Except that noone would have followed Curze, he would have just been censured or "Missing Legion"-ed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 First to openly rebel & Chaos wasn't involved. (as far as we know) Aside from Curze's life long visions of fighting his own brothers and dying by the hand of his own father, which ultimately drove him mad. Aside from that, Chaos was involved very little. ^_^ And that was confirmed to be caused by the Chaos gods when? :lol: If Chaos didn't exist, would some other influence make Heresy a matter of fact?Look no further than to the Night Lords.First to openly rebel & Chaos wasn't involved. (as far as we know) Except that noone would have followed Curze, he would have just been censured or "Missing Legion"-ed. It would still be Heresy. And lets not forget that he was friends with other Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 And that was confirmed to be caused by the Chaos gods when? Where else would such a peculiar "gift" come from? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Where else would such a peculiar "gift" come from? The same place Sanguinius' premonitions came from, psychic ability. Curze's "visions" just happened to always be dark portents (which I would venture was a product of his psyche rather than some external Chaotic influence). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Curze just so happens to have dark and bleak visions, and that just so happens to ultimately drive him into the arms of Chaos. How convenient life sometimes can be. Chaos gets an additional Primarch without having to lift a finger. :) The same place Sanguinius' premonitions came from Which, incidentally, was also most likely Chaos. At least his wings are specifically said to have been a product of the touch of Chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Or... just from the warp, same as all psykers/astropaths get their powers from. Not all of the warp is chaos. They could even have got their mutations from the Emperor's DNA that was involved in their creation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Or... just from the warp, same as all psykers/astropaths get their powers from. Not all of the warp is chaos. They could even have got their mutations from the Emperor's DNA that was involved in their creation. Psykers are born usually due to a form of genetic mutation. Since the Primarchs were genetically engineered, it seems unlikely that they would just randomly have developed such psychic traits. That the Emperor had intentionally engineered them with such abilities is a possibility. But then why did he not give them to all of them? And why would he have given Curze such a detrimental power? The far more likely explanation is that those abilities developed due to the touch of Chaos during the Primarchs' incubation stage, which is well documented as having had siginificant effects on Primarchs such as Sanguinius or Magnus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Two things to say: No chaos - no Horus being corrupted - betrayal gets a LOT harder deal. Let's be fair, which option is the least trustworthy; the Emperor or Chaos? (Hint: It's not the Emperor.) Oh really? A bloodthirsty dictator with hue personal ambitions is trustworthy? It is just like asking: Who is more trustworthy: Hitler or Stalin? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/254168-was-rebellion-inevitable/#findComment-3086796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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